Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

[Hlafordlaes]

... I was very strongly "anti" Scottish independence during the first referendum. There was no science or logic to it, just a personal belief that we are a single country and that the "Balkanisation" of Europe, especially this corner, would be a bad thing. I was therefore happy with the referendum outcome, especially the promises of increased powers for the devolved governments.

The highlighted made sense to me for many years. My thought was simply that if a political system is already democratic and laws are enforced fairly, then independence movements are examples of thinly disguised ethnocentrism. However, it started making a lot more sense to me in the 1980s, as increased EU integration would inevitably mean a loss of identity for nation-states. My view is that enhancing and strengthening regional cultures offers a way for Europe to "think global" and "act local" more effectively without trampling its cultures. Basically, this is a vision held by the leadership of Catalonia back in the day, and now - that of a "Europe of Regions."

But everything blew up meanwhile and confused the landscape. Since a united Europe, to me, is an overriding concern, at this juncture I find myself more in favor of Scottish independence and its new membership in the EU, but against Catalan independence for now, only because it is bad timing for Europe and could foster other movements that seem to have rather uninspiring motivations.

Kosovo, meanwhile, is blocked from acceptance as a new member state owing to (Castillian) Spanish opposition, just to stymie any precedent for Catalonia. This view seems to be often shared by Germany, worried about stirrings in Bavaria, and France, always the monolithic centralized state, as much as I love the French. Hopefully, if the EU makes it through some tough local elections in the coming months, some thought will return to addressing the concerns of those fearing a loss of identity. One possible way forward is, as suggested, to reinforce regional cultures at the same time as integrating nation-states more closely, making the EU less feared as a vital threat to identity.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd still like to know what do you base this assertion on?

That probably wasn't the only thing they were elected on though.

McHrozni

I tired to find as neutral a source as possible.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9816

This fella from YouGov says

These do indeed show broad public opposition to a second referendum, but both asked specifically about a referendum before Brexit negotiations were concluded. If you look at the two Panelbase polls, they showed only minority support for a second referendum during negotiations/before Britain leaves, but that a further group of Scots would support a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations/after Britain leaves

 

[McHrozni]

Well there's an interesting point.

The normal interpretation of "traitor" would be in respect of one's own country. Mary may have been many things, but she wasn't English.

You might also like to mention that calling Sturgeon a "Queen of Scotland" is in fact an actual act of treason against the Queen Elisabeth II of the United Kingdom.

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It was pathetic.

Ha! What a cop out. You have no answer to the points so you resort to these shameful insults and dissembling.

 

[McHrozni]

I tired to find as neutral a source as possible.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9816

This fella from YouGov says

Hm, I see. The polls show Scotts would like to have a referendum, but only after Brexit talks are concluded. Theresa May seems to be offering just that, right?

McHrozni

 

[Andy_Ross]

I appreciate that there is an element of tongue platend in cheek, but I think that Captain Swoop's regulars mirror my own experiences of working as Scot in England, and for that matter when I have been undertaking projects in other parts of the UK, inasmuch as there is a failure by a significant proportion of the English population to "get" the other home nations. But I'm painting with a wide brush, and have to say that I think things get worse the further south one travels.

No tongue in cheek, they are seriously if somewhat confused and ignorant of history.
As for 'further south' I am in North Yorkshire in a Market Town.

Ironically although there is opinion in favour of scrapping the Scottish Parliament and Assemblies, there is support for devolved power for Yorkshire.
If there's one thing disliked more than the Scots it's London.

 

[Architect]

You might also like to mention that calling Sturgeon a "Queen of Scotland" is in fact an actual act of treason against the Queen Elisabeth II of the United Kingdom.

McHrozni

Well, the technical term would have been Queen of Scots and you might find that some of us up here are a bit doubtful about the "II" bit in the current monarch's title.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Hm, I see. The polls show Scotts would like to have a referendum, but only after Brexit talks are concluded. Theresa May seems to be offering just that, right?

McHrozni

Not really. She's not very clear on what she is offering at all.

It's not really clear whether after talks are concluded means 'when we know what the deal will be' (which is what Sturgeon is asking for!) or 'after we have left'

It also doesn't acknowledge that the process for holding the referendum can be agreed and approved, and should be, before the time when the referendum will be held.

TM is basically saying shut up and be quiet and we might talk about this in a few years time. No specifics. There is no poll data on how many people in Scotland agree with Theresa May's position but there is plenty of data on how highly regarded the Tory position is in the country. 1 MP.

ETA: It's interesting to note the relative positions of the two campaigns.

1. Pro-ref: This is a big deal, we should decide what we want to do. If you want to stay then vote to stay and we will.

2. Anti-ref: This is a big deal, the UK government should be able to decide what happens and if you disagree with it you should just shut up and do nothing. You don't get a say. You don't get a vote. You don't get to decide. If you want to leave then tough.

One of those positions seems pretty clearly without merit.

 

[Blue Bubble]

I appreciate that there is an element of tongue platend in cheek, but I think that Captain Swoop's regulars mirror my own experiences of working as Scot in England, and for that matter when I have been undertaking projects in other parts of the UK, inasmuch as there is a failure by a significant proportion of the English population to "get" the other home nations. But I'm painting with a wide brush, and have to say that I think things get worse the further south one travels.

I fully realise that I'm probably in a (blue) bubble here, but Cambridge/South Cambridgeshire is very much opposite to that (probably reflects the general education-level though). I'm a Scot living here for the last 23 years, and the previous 17 years in Germany.

 

[Architect]

No tongue in cheek, they are seriously if somewhat confused and ignorant of history.
As for 'further south' I am in North Yorkshire in a Market Town.

Ironically although there is opinion in favour of scrapping the Scottish Parliament and Assemblies, there is support for devolved power for Yorkshire.
If there's one thing disliked more than the Scots it's London.

I was based in Manchester, as you probably recall from past messages, and I didn't encounter such views - or at least they weren't voiced in earshot. It may be that the urban centres and their cosmopolitan mix means a wider view.

 

[Architect]

I fully realise that I'm probably in a (blue) bubble here, but Cambridge/South Cambridgeshire is very much opposite to that (probably reflects the general education-level though). I'm a Scot living here for the last 23 years, and the previous 17 years in Germany.

Really? Let me give you a simple example. I used to deal with people who thought we had a different legal system only as a result of devolution, ditto education.

I recently got asked by someone in a senior educational capacity in Hartlepool, in the course of business, when we did our SATS. They assumed that we signed up to their national curriculum, and so on. A complete failure to grasp how other parts (note the plural) of the UK organised things.

 

[Parsman]

We seem to be misunderstanding each other - I thought you were commenting on those that repeatedly use "England" to mean the "bits of the UK not including Scotland.". Certainly in many threads here it was the SNP/Independence side people who would keep saying "England" when they should have said "England, Wales, NI and the various other bits and pieces that make up the UK".

99% of those supporting the idea of Scottish independence have always differentiated between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the government at Westminster. It is the parliament at Westminster, both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, that we want rid of for political and economic reasons.

 

[Rolfe]

Assuming the reporting of the original Telegraph piece is accurate, this seems a little unfortunate:

https://www.thecanary.co/2017/03/15/telegraph-calls-beheading-traitor-nicola-sturgeon-image/

Yes. I saw it at the time, and there are loads of screen captures taken before the headline was changed.

I've seen worse even than the tweets the Canary has reported. Something about fisting Sturgeon with a hand wrapped in barbed wire was yesterday's choice offering.

If they hate us and our elected leaders so much, why do they want to hang on to us? And that applies to some people in this thread as well.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes. I saw it at the time, and there are loads of screen captures taken before the headline was changed.

I've seen worse even than the tweets the Canary has reported. Something about fisting Sturgeon with a hand wrapped in barbed wire was yesterday's choice offering.

If they hate us and our elected leaders so much, why do they want to hang on to us? And that applies to some people in this thread as well.

You would think after Katie Hopkins was done for what she tweets these right wing morons might have reined it in a bit really. Some of the stuff I have seen on Twitter of late to me is probably the wrong side of criminal.

 

[Parsman]

Scotland has, in recent years, been ridiculously over represented at Westminster. Scotland has a lot of land but in terms of population is small.

Yorkshire has a larger population than Scotland.
The West Midlands has a larger population than Scotland.
London has over twice the population of Scotland.

Scotland has been over-represented in Westminster in terms of members of parliament, cabinet ministers, party leaders, and Prime Ministers. They have a disproportionately large number of MPs at Westminster in addition to their own parliament with its members in Edinburgh. Despite this the Scots keep moaning and wanting even more representation and power.

Scots are heavily subsidised by the English and use those subsidies to provide free benefits to Scots that are not available in other areas of the UK.

English taxpayers have also spent billions propping up the Royal Bank of Scotland which was hopelessly mismanaged by its overpaid leaders. The bank is still a basket case and still losing money even after years of having billions poured into it over many years by long suffering English Taxpayers.

Scotland has about 8% of the UK population and about 9% of the MPs in the House of Commons. Given the population distribution in Scotland (islands, large areas of wilderness) that isn't a huge over-representation.

UK taxes come in part from Scotland. Until the relatively recent downturn in oil prices Scotland was a net contributor to the UK tax take. Oil from the North Sea (more than 90%in Scottish waters) funded the Thatcher years in the UK, money that it turns out was largely wasted. London certainly receives more spending on infrastructure and national institutions which make it better supported than any other part of the UK, it just isn't reflected in the figures. And every other part of the UK pays for that.

Yorkshire is a county. Scotland is a country. The "r" makes a big difference.

 

[Architect]

Scotland has, in recent years, been ridiculously over represented at Westminster. Scotland has a lot of land but in terms of population is small.

Evidence? Run through the statistics,please.

Yorkshire has a larger population than Scotland.
The West Midlands has a larger population than Scotland.
London has over twice the population of Scotland.

Yes. And?

Scotland has been over-represented in Westminster in terms of members of parliament, cabinet ministers, party leaders, and Prime Ministers. They have a disproportionately large number of MPs at Westminster in addition to their own parliament with its members in Edinburgh.

Prove it. Evidence, please.

Despite this the Scots keep moaning and wanting even more representation and power.

Indeed. How dare we?!

Scots are heavily subsidised by the English and use those subsidies to provide free benefits to Scots that are not available in other areas of the UK.

Evidence?

English taxpayers have also spent billions propping up the Royal Bank of Scotland which was hopelessly mismanaged by its overpaid leaders. The bank is still a basket case and still losing money even after years of having billions poured into it over many years by long suffering English Taxpayers.

I think it amusing that Unionist commentators always flag up the RBS line and not the fact it included Natwest. You know, the English bank that went belly up in the 90s before RBS was daft enough to buy it.

 

[ceptimus]

Ha! What a cop out. You have no answer to the points so you resort to these shameful insults and dissembling.

You still can't address my points so you resort to the childish tactic of repeating what I say. Shame on you.

 

[ceptimus]

London certainly receives more spending on infrastructure and national institutions which make it better supported than any other part of the UK, it just isn't reflected in the figures. And every other part of the UK pays for that.

Yes. That is totally unfair too, and should be stopped.

But holding up one unfair policy as justification for the similarly unfair policy of extra spending on Scotland is not very persuasive.

 

[ceptimus]

If they hate us and our elected leaders so much, why do they want to hang on to us? And that applies to some people in this thread as well.

I don't see any hate for Scots in the thread - only for the SNP.

And who in the thread wants to hang on to you? Most seem to be saying we hope you will now leave and wish you good luck.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You still can't address my points so you resort to the childish tactic of repeating what I say. Shame on you.

Your points have been addressed. They lack accuracy and factual basis. For someone who is sick of hearing about the debate you certainly have a lot to say about it.