Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

Rolfe said:
A lot of these institutions are institutionally unionist as well as pragmatically though. Indeed when you consider the opportunities independence would have presented in 2014 it's difficult to sustain the idea that it's even pragmatic. They may be hoping to capitalise on some sort of post-Brexit special deal for the City of London, which could make them reluctant to come out in favour of independence.

But the fact is that Edinburgh is going to be an extremely attractive prospect as the capital of an independent EU member state, so someone might figure it's worth it.




There are already some extremely positive noises coming out of various EU sources. Whether they will ever go as far as giving a definite guarantee I don't know, but it's likely this will be made as clear as it can be made short of an actual guarantee.

All bets will continue to be hedged until May triggers article 50 though.
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Yeah I agree but until someone influential says it and backs it up it's just words. While the big institutions do seem unionist in nature i wonder if one could break ranks post Brexit to put a cat amongst Theresa's pigeons.

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Scotland would be excluded from the EU anymore. Do they?
 
dudalb said:
A medium term sticking plaster might give you time to figure out a permanent solution.
Anyway, you have the whole issue that that the problems of Scotland,Wales,and NI might be different then that of England, and that there is no "Solution" that is right for all four "kingdoms". Better to allow them to develop their own solutions.
The idea of a powerful central government, with lower poltical units existing only as a administrative convenience for the central government ,seems to be the standard for many countries in Europe, and the idea of a system where local government have power and rights NOT dependent on the good will of a central government is a hard one to grasp for many in Europe.
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I think the problems and solutions may well be different. Or at least the populations can't agree on the solutions anyway..

The more fundamental problem us that one of the four is so much bigger than the other three. Which means either central decisions are either totally dominated by one party or unfairly rebalanced to avoid that. Or else you render the central part completely pointless.
 
Over the past few days I have taken to looking at the Daily Express website to see what the other side are saying. Dear me, it was always a rag but it's firmly in comic book territory now. At what point does it lose it's official title of newspaper? It looks like it is written by twelve year olds for eight year olds - right wing reactionary bigoted eight year olds at that.

No wonder we are in the mess we are in when that is one of the top information sources for the electorate.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Over the past few days I have taken to looking at the Daily Express website to see what the other side are saying. Dear me, it was always a rag but it's firmly in comic book territory now. At what point does it lose it's official title of newspaper? It looks like it is written by twelve year olds for eight year olds - right wing reactionary bigoted eight year olds at that.

No wonder we are in the mess we are in when that is one of the top information sources for the electorate.
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I think it may be even bigger than that, most people no longer buy a newspaper and basically pick up various online headlines during the day without reading the full article, so if the sound bite from the express or mail is "catchy enough" that becomes the news. So after today's headlines I expect lots of comments about the Russian's role in supporting Independence. This is really an alternative facts era.
 
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I notice the telegraph has an awful lot of inside sources saying things these days. It seems every snp insider actually thinks that independence is a silly idea that will never work and a referendum is a bad thing. Either that or the telegraph is just making stuff up to suit their narrative and are just a Tory mouthpiece. But of course they would never do that.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I notice the telegraph has an awful lot of inside sources saying things these days. It seems every snp insider actually thinks that independence is a silly idea that will never work and a referendum is a bad thing. Either that or the telegraph is just making stuff up to suit their narrative and are just a Tory mouthpiece. But of course they would never do that.
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The problem is it only needs one insider and then every sentence is spun as a new story. So one insider starts to look like many, but they have a useable on the record quote. The days of needing 2 sources independently confirmed before you publish have gone from journalism.
 
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Nicola does seem to be backing away from automatic EU membership application now, in the event that she wins an independence referendum. There is now talk of a watered-down non-EU membership but only applying to join EFTA.

It just shows how hypocritical she has been in using the "Dragged out of the EU against our will" argument to justify a second indyref.
 
Don't believe everything you read in the papers. (Nicola is doing no such thing, given that she has never breathed a word suggesting that she might, and also she isn't a complete moron.)
 
ceptimus said:
Nicola does seem to be backing away from automatic EU membership application now,
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Does she? What has she said?

in the event that she wins an independence referendum. There is now talk of a watered-down non-EU membership but only applying to join EFTA.
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Is there? When did she talk about this?

It just shows how hypocritical she has been in using the "Dragged out of the EU against our will" argument to justify a second indyref.
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Does it? What did she say?
 
Loving the video of the bald bloke ranting that is going round Twitter this afternoon. Could it even be footage of one of our very own posters here? There's a few who would fit the bill.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Over the past few days I have taken to looking at the Daily Express website to see what the other side are saying. Dear me, it was always a rag but it's firmly in comic book territory now. At what point does it lose it's official title of newspaper? It looks like it is written by twelve year olds for eight year olds - right wing reactionary bigoted eight year olds at that.

No wonder we are in the mess we are in when that is one of the top information sources for the electorate.
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That is grossly unfair to comic books......
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I think the problems and solutions may well be different. Or at least the populations can't agree on the solutions anyway..

The more fundamental problem us that one of the four is so much bigger than the other three. Which means either central decisions are either totally dominated by one party or unfairly rebalanced to avoid that. Or else you render the central part completely pointless.
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Depends on what you call "fair" really. The trick is to balance "Majority Rules" with protections for the Minority. That is really what the US Constitution attempts to do :make sure the Democracy does not degenerate into a sort of Mob Rule...which has been a historic weakness of Democracy.
 
dudalb said:
Depends on what you call "fair" really. The trick is to balance "Majority Rules" with protections for the Minority. That is really what the US Constitution attempts to do :make sure the Democracy does not degenerate into a sort of Mob Rule...which has been a historic weakness of Democracy.
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Now let's say the US joined a union with China. How would you suggest power be divided to satisfy both sides. Presumably the economic system should be communist? The official language mandarin? Do you reckon Americans would go for that provided they had protections as a minority?
 
The amount of Scots imbecile who have been moaning about this traitorous act by Nicola is unreal. I've seen threats of hanging and also shooting. Not one single one of the people I have challenged realised it was specified in the manifesto that they were voted back into power on. A large amount of them are either Glasgow Rangers supporters or ex military.

Verbatim - "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will"

She is only doing what she promised to do in the event of a material change in circumstances post 2014.

This is very simple. No Brexit and this would not have come round until at least the next decade. I voted yes but accepted the vote at the time. I don't think we should have a referendum so soon but the SNP are quite entitled to do so based on the constitutional changes that are coming.

I think 5 years post Brexit would deliver a landslide yes vote.
 
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The trouble with that scenario is that we'll be well and truly out of the EU by then and well and truly screwed over. That course of action is what May is trying to force Sturgeon into, and it has been likened to allowing an appeal against conviction but only after the appellant has been executed. We need to get out of the UK before we're dragged out of the EU and our economy trashed. We need to do it at the time when a fairly seamless transition to being an EU member state in our own right is practical.

If Sturgeon bottles the vote now, a considerable amount of the goodwill that currently exists in the EU towards Scotland will dissipate. Right now we're seen as the plucky Europhiles trying to escape the death-grip of the suicidal UK. If we're seen to give in without a fight this will not do our stock any good at all.

Not only that, there are some pretty heavy hints going round that May intends to modify the devolution settlement to strip powers from Holyrood. How much do you want to bet that this will include measures to make it much more difficult to run another independence referendum - or even impossible? The Tories hate Holyrood and would like nothing better than to abolish it and return to direct rule. I wouldn't put that past them either. Things could get extremely nasty down that road.

Right at the moment I am genuinely terrified that we don't get a Yes vote next time. Every progressive voice in England, including some who were very much against independence in 2014, is screaming "Run, save yourselves!" But once again the BBC and the newspapers are simply turning Project Fear up to the max without even the slightest discussion as to whether there might be advantages for Scotland in doing just that. Too many voters just glance at the headlines in the Express and so on, then settle down in front of the six o'clock news.

But there's 18 months to two years to go. I don't entirely share AGG's pessimism. People who are actually awake and sentient are coming over to Yes in appreciable numbers. I think it will trickle down. It bloody better!
 
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I'm genuinely excited that independence is closer now that it was an hour ago. I think Theresa May has just pressed the self destruct button on the UK. Her incompetence seems too deliberate to be accidental but unless her evil plan has always been to turn England and Wales into a kinder gentler North Korea with tea and scones I really can't see what her end game is.

She's making Trump look like a genius.
 
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