JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Note: Although Oswald was a Marine, he scored the lowest possible score to pass and that was likely at the peak of his proficiency.

He scored at his lowest (191 - one over the minimum for Marksman) shortly before his defection, when he was disillusioned with the Marines and enraptured with Soviet Marxism. He had a higher score (212 - two over the minimum for the middle grade of Sharpshooter) upon first being tested in the Marines.

Oswald's personal best of 212 is comparable to the Texas Tower Shooter's (Charles Whitman's) best score for the record (210).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Texas_Tower_Shooting

Compare the feats. Whitman shot from the observation deck of the Texas Tower, about five times higher than Oswald, and at distances of up to 500-600 yards. Compare this to Oswald's longest shot, of 88 yards.

Whitman had a lower Marine Corps shooting score than Oswald, and yet accomplished far greater feats of shooting.

That hardly makes Oswald's one hit in the head in three shots all that astounding.

Hank
 
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Good catch. I'm pretty sure it was three, unless one completely escaped detection and Oswald added a cartridge after fired his shots.

Earlier in this threat, in arguing with Robert Harris, remember I advanced a two-shot scenario that accounted for all the damage and encompassed the recollections of the folks closest to the limo. So the first shot hits JFK, passes through JFK to wound Connally, and then Oswald has 4.9 seconds to work the bolt once more, reacquire the aim, and fire one more shot.

Hank
 
I agree with your analysis of the Enfield firing times. That is well documented in many sources. I'm simply questioning Oswald's ability to do it with the Carcano, a cheap scope and mounts. I didn't say it was impossible, I said it was improbable.

Is there any evidence he went to a firing range to sight it in? I've mounted a number of scopes and all required multiple adjustments to get them anywhere near accurate. I lived in Dallas for a year. I know of no ranges in Dallas proper, but I'd guess there are some in various suburban areas. Were any of these checked to determine if Oswald had used any of them?

I'll work backward:

1. Oswald was seen three times at the Sportsdome Gun Range in Grand Prarie, TX (Oct. 26, Nov. 9, and Nov. 17).

2. He stood out for two reasons: He was the only one with an Italian rifle, and he was an outstanding shot. The guy next to him was Garland Slack, and he said that he and Oswald got into a shooting match, and that Oswald was fast, and "centered them all." Sterling Wood recalls Oswald hitting 8 of 10 shots at 100 yards.

Before this, Oswald would take his rifle down to the river where he'd shot bottles he'd toss into the current. He would sit and dry-fire his weapon for hours.

Conclusion: Oswald got plenty of practice.

The Scope:

As already discussed here (multiple times), it is possible to sight UNDER the scope on Oswald's rifle, it was side mounted leaving space to view front and rear sights.

If you are a shooter then look at his two known shots: The first one was low-right, the second one was in the ten ring but also high right. I'm seeing a guy adjust rounds on the fly, not a guy with a $3,000 Zeis scope.

Conclusion: It was an easy shot, Kennedy's head would have looked like a pumpkin through Oswald's cheap scope, assuming he even used his scope.

The Carcano:

The Carcano was a capable weapon, accurate up to 1,000 yards. The barrel had a 1:8 gain twist (higher than the M-16's 1:7), making the round more stable. The bolt was designed for minimal hand movement while transitioning from the trigger, and a practiced shooter I(which Oswald was) would have no problem cycling while maintaining sight picture.

There are plenty of YouTube videos demonstrating this.

And once again we come to the Mannlicher Caracano bullet:

2,700 feet per second - 160 grains, extremely long giving them increased stability when matched with the rifle's 1:8 gain twist. The rounds can penetrate 4 feet of Ponderosa Pine and emerge undamaged.

The 6.5x 52mm round is THE SMOKING GUN pointing to Oswald as the lone shooter. All the damage caused is almost exclusive to the Carcano round; the devastating head shot, the round passing through Kennedy and Connally relatively intact are the bullet's signature. The Carcano round is the white rhino of the ballistics world, not many shooters ever use or see one, and even fewer pathologists have ever dealt with fatal wounds caused by them. In 1963 the Carcano round was as exotic as it would be today in our gun-crazy land.

The lack of understanding the specific 6.5x52mm, 160 grain round, and the Carcano itself, is the root of the problem with JFK Cters who believe there was a second gunman. Had Oswald bought a .306 caliber rifle we'd have something to discuss because they were as common as cigarettes in Texas in 1963 (and even today). The .306 was the round of choice by most marksmen, and had the shooting been a conspiracy where the goal was to frame Oswald they would have either had to have provided him with an M-1, or the second shooter would have had to also had a Carcano, and would have had to be firing from behind the motorcade. This would have been obvious once you understand the 6.5x52mm round, and you'd know there wasn't a second Carcano used.

Bottom Line:

Before you can rule in a conspiracy you have to rule out Oswald, and nobody can. The Carcano makes this impossible.

I will say it again, if you believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK you won't find it in Dealey Plaza. You might ask who drove Oswald the 13 miles to Grand Prairie, TX. That one has never been nailed down, and while it is debated if Oswald actually went to the shooting range by BOTH sides of the CT issue (CTers allege this was a look-alike, non-CTers don't think the witnesses are reliable and stay away from the subject), if he in fact went to the range someone should figure out the identity of the man he was with at the time.

I doubt the guy knew Oswald was going to kill the President, and I doubt he was anyone special, but until we get an ID it's a question mark.
 
Earlier in this threat, in arguing with Robert Harris, remember I advanced a two-shot scenario that accounted for all the damage and encompassed the recollections of the folks closest to the limo. So the first shot hits JFK, passes through JFK to wound Connally, and then Oswald has 4.9 seconds to work the bolt once more, reacquire the aim, and fire one more shot.

Hank

This would make more sense.

Plus, Oswald only had to do it once.
 
What?! It's well established that Finck showed up later in the autopsy, after the brain was removed.

From HSCA testimony:

Dr. PETTY: All right. Now if I understand you correctly, then there was a restriction; that is, that the organs of the head or the head only should be examined, is that correct?

Dr. FINCK: At the beginning there was that restriction. As a matter of fact, when I reached the hospital, as far as I can remember, the brain had been removed.


So you're left with nothing but maybe saying that Dr. Finck only saw the small head wound when previously-removed skull fragments were fitted together, and NOTHING he says in his testimonies clearly indicate that. He always talked like he could see the entire hole in the cranium. To me, the cowlick entry wound theory is like saying the Earth is flat.

You're basing your argument on Finck's 15-year after the fact qualified ("as far as I can remember") recollection. Sorry, that's not convincing. And hardly as "well established" as you insist. You need to do better. Any contemporaneous evidence that Finck arrived after the brain had already been removed?

Hank
 
I just sat thru the youtube (yea I know) video of Douglas P. Horne's synopsis of his book. Horne was a prominent researcher on the ARRP review beginning in 1993. His presented evidence is overwhelming.

Does he explain away how cuts made on a dead person look nothing like cuts on a living person? Does he deal with the fact that after the fact body alterations would not fool a first year medical student?

Just asking.

Hank
 
FTFY, unless Oswald actually fired four times.

Dave

Actually, it's fire, chamber round, aim, fire, chamber round, aim, fire, chamber round.

Remember the weapon was discovered with the last round in the chamber, and three shells were found at the sniper's nest window, so the last shell was ejected at the window. That last motion (to eject the shell and chamber the next round) might have been just a reflex, and of course doesn't count towards the timing of the shots.

Hank
 
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You appear to be arguing that there should be two wounds in the front of the President's neck via this quoting of Lifton.

A bullet wound which was left untouched, and a separate trache wound inflicted by the doctors to make an airway for the President's assisted breathing tube.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The autopsy photos show no such development. There is one trache incision visible only, which therefore must be right through the bullet wound the doctors saw.

Lifton's arguments, as always, are well-documented, well-supported, and wholly wrong.

Hank

If Dr. Perry ever indicated that he didn't remember the trach incision being like the autopsy photos, that is further evidence that the doctors- or some intervening force with access to the body- thought the throat wound was caused by a bullet. It doesn't matter anyway. There are enough witnesses saying they probed the throat wound and discussed it, and as Doug Horne pointed out in his presentation, the majority witness statements indicate that the autopsy doctors contacted Dr. Perry before the autopsy was finished, who then informed them of the original throat wound.
 
A lot of people (myself included) don't think he used the scope at all, outside of possibly for the first shot. Marines are taught to use iron sights in a rapid fire shooting scenario.

Lol, then why did he bother smuggling in the scope? Doesn't that take work to mount on the rifle? Time that could be spent getting caught?
 
Lol, then why did he bother smuggling in the scope? Doesn't that take work to mount on the rifle? Time that could be spent getting caught?

The rifle was purchased with a cheap Japanese made 4X telescopic sight. It was mounted on the rifle at Klein's Sporting Goods, and shipped to Oswald's PO Box that way.

There's no evidence it was ever removed by Oswald at any time. This is just another in a long line of straw man arguments about the scope.

Hank
 
Likely not, but that's not all we have. In the next sentence I stated the police experts were able to do better. What is your point, that I am full of **** for believing that it was not an easy feat? It might be better if you contributed something better than snark to the conversation.

I just re-read my post and I apologize if you found it to be snarky. I was being quite sincere - that you believe something is unlikely is your just your personal incredulity. So your answer "likely not" is appreciated. As for "that's not all we have," I do commend you for staying on this and not moving onto other subjects via Gish Gallop.
 
If Dr. Perry ever indicated that he didn't remember the trach incision being like the autopsy photos, that is further evidence that the doctors- or some intervening force with access to the body- thought the throat wound was caused by a bullet.

Nobody is disputing the throat wound was caused by a bullet. The only dispute is whether the throat wound was an entry wound or an exit wound. The Parkland doctors - only one or two actually got a look at it before it was transformed by the trache - thought it was an entrance. It was determined at the autopsy it was an exit. Otherwise, you have two magic bullets, remember (the one that hit him in the back, didn't exit the throat and wasn't found in the body, along with the one that hit him in the throat, didn't exit the back and wasn't found in the body).


It doesn't matter anyway. There are enough witnesses saying they probed the throat wound and discussed it, and as Doug Horne pointed out in his presentation, the majority witness statements indicate that the autopsy doctors contacted Dr. Perry before the autopsy was finished, who then informed them of the original throat wound.

Humes contacted Perry on Saturday morning.

Perry is no help, he said he didn't remember:
Dr. PERRY - My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?
Dr. PERRY - No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.


Humes was certain it was Saturday:
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have occasion to discuss that wound on the front side of the President with Dr. Malcolm Perry of Parkland Hospital in Dallas?
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; I did. I had the impression from seeing the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to give them a free airway.
To ascertain that point, I called on the telephone Dr. Malcolm Perry and discussed with him the situation of the President's neck when he first examined the President, and asked him had he in fact done a tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because I was somewhat certain he had.
He said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the tracheotomy incision.
Mr. SPECTER - When did you have that conversation with him, Dr. Humes?
Commander HUMES - I had that conversation early on Saturday morning, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - On Saturday morning, November 23d?
Commander HUMES - That is correct, sir.


Anyone else's recollection on this matter would not be evidence, it would be hearsay.

Hank
 
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You're basing your argument on Finck's 15-year after the fact qualified ("as far as I can remember") recollection. Sorry, that's not convincing. And hardly as "well established" as you insist. You need to do better. Any contemporaneous evidence that Finck arrived after the brain had already been removed?

Hank

From Warren commission testimony:


Mr. MCCLOY. Did you examine any of the fragments which were removed from the President’s skull?

Colonel FINCK. I only saw one fragment shown to me when I arrived at Bethesda, and it was an elongated black metallic fragment, and that is the only one I saw to my recollection. I was told that it had been removed from the brain of President Kennedy in the anterior portion of his head.


From Clay Shaw trial testimony:

Q: Had any work been done on President Kennedy's body in regard to the performing of the autopsy by the time you got there?

A: As I recall, the brain had been removed. Dr. Humes told me that to remove the brain he did not have to carry out the procedure you carry out when there is no wound in the skull. The wound was of such an extent, over five inches in diameter, that it was not of a great difficulty for him to remove this brain, and this is the best of my recollection. There were no removals of the wound of entry in the back of the neck, no removal of the wound of entry in the back of the head prior to my arrival, and I made a positive identification of both wounds of entry. At this time I might, for the sake of clarity, say that in the autopsy report we may have called the first wound the one in the head and the second wound the one in the neck, because we did not know the sequence of shots at that time. Again, the sequence of shots was determined by the Zapruder film, so what we did, we determined the entry of the bullet wound and stated that there were two bullet wounds, one in the back of the neck and the other in the back of the head, without giving a sequence.


This is silly. It is well known that Finck only showed up towards the later part of the autopsy.
 
The rifle was purchased with a cheap Japanese made 4X telescopic sight. It was mounted on the rifle at Klein's Sporting Goods, and shipped to Oswald's PO Box that way.

There's no evidence it was ever removed by Oswald at any time. This is just another in a long line of straw man arguments about the scope.

Hank

No, still, either way that's extra crap you have to be carrying around.

So do you agree that there probably was no shot before z190-224? If so, what's up with Connally hearing a shot just before he felt like he was struck?
 
If the trach incision was tampered with, this implies that somebody was probing the wound for some reason. If Lifton elaborates on this or releases these audio tapes with his upcoming book Final Charade, this may prove to be important evidence. Otherwise, it looks like the doctors investigated the throat wound as a bullet wound later in the autopsy.

Here is Doug Horne explaining some of the reasons to suspect a Friday night call to Dr. Perry, informing the doctors that the trach incision was originally a bullet wound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDEw3Jgkw8&t=231m8s
 
19 seconds? Wow. Can you cite this?]

I already did.

I can link you to a clip of a recreation done for the Discovery Channel where a sniper goes 3 for 3 in the target area from the same distances on a target moving at the same speed in 7 seconds.

CBS did a recreation in 1967 for a TV special on the assassination. 11 shooters were given 3 attempts with the same model weapon shooting at a target moving at the same speed and distance and attempting to get all shots in under an artificially compressed 6 second timeframe. Given the proper 8 second window, 7 of those shooters matched or bettered Oswald's performance on at least one of their attempts.

OK
 
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No, still, either way that's extra crap you have to be carrying around.

So do you agree that there probably was no shot before z190-224? If so, what's up with Connally hearing a shot just before he felt like he was struck?

Connally was reacting to gunfire. He has always said that. That puts the first shot at Z160, which puts the entire shooting sequence at 8.4 seconds.
 
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