JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[MicahJava]

To be fair to MicahJava, Cyril Wecht, who was a member of the medical panel of the HSCA strongly believed that there were two headshots. He based this belief on "evidence" (read as personal confirmation bias) other than the medical evidence, however.

His explanation of why there wasn't any medical evidence of a headshot from the front was that the headshot from the rear miraculously obliterated all the evidence of the shot from the front. Even he wasn't crazy enough to buy into any "THEY altered the body!" or "THEY faked all the evidence!" theories so he merely adopted a stance that the evidence just coincidentally happened to support one shot from the rear.

Unfortunately, Ceril Wecht buys into the cowlick entry wound idea AND the idea that a bullet entered the back and exited the throat (although I did see a video of him at a 2013 conference making fun of the idea of that trajectory, saying "He was leaning over? What, was he tying his shoes?")

 

[MicahJava]

I still would like to know exactly what it is about the quote that you supplied, that re-awakened this thread, that you think helps your argument?

Here it is again:



Nothing there indicates two head shots.

Nothing.

So what is it you think that shows?

Tolls, the nature of the brain damage doesn't make sense with the EOP entry wound exiting the top-right side of the head. It only makes sense if the missile that struck the EOP brushed past the cerebellum and hit the floor of the skull. The large head wound would then be created by a separate missile.

 

[MicahJava]

.

cmikes, this isn't an issue of trajectory, it's an issue of the damage to the brain. There is no sign of an entry to the cerebellum or the lower occipital lobe. The right cerebellum was right behind the entry wound described in the autopsy report and everybody who saw the body. Please grasp this.

 

[MicahJava]

MichaJava, I posted this question a while ago, but you chose not to answer it...

That's not every pathologist who examined the body, that's not every pathologist who examined the X-rays, and all of them don't agree that the head wounds were caused by one bullet from the rear. The original location of the entry wound, behind the ear near the EOP, cannot have exited the top-right side of the head because the nature of the damage to the brain doesn't support that. What kind of verbal diarrhea are you spewing?

 

[MicahJava]

Would it be a simple mistake to not mention the second wound at all? Is that something an experienced guy like Finck would do.

You seem willing to tar Finck as completely incompetent, but for some reason that incompetence doesn't extend to him possibly misremembering the exact location of the entrance wound years after the fact.


You're the one posting a grossly inaccurate drawing of a head in in attempt to prove your flawed position and you're accusing me of using red herrings. That's rich.

I'm just here to correct your false statements and misinformation.

I don't think you grasp what I'm suggesting at all. The large head wound, the one big hole that everybody at the autopsy saw, could have been created by a missile not leaning any obvious entry or exit. It's called a tangential wound. Dr. Finck arrived at the autopsy once skull fragments were already taken out to remove the brain, so any possibility of him recognizing this as an expert was lost (or he never told everything he knew).

 

[Axxman300]

As I understand it, the National Archives have no say in releasing the photos and x-rays from the autopsy. Those have always been controlled by the Kennedy family. First by Robert Kennedy, then by Teddy. I actually have no idea what the line of succession with the the Kennedy family is, so I don't know who would have the say in whether or not to release them now.

That's always been one of areas where conspiracy believers look foolish. When they're railing that releasing the autopsy materials would "totally expose the evil forces of THEY!", until a few years ago, they were accusing Ted Kennedy of being in on the conspiracy that killed his brother.

From the National Archives:

The autopsy photographs and X-rays of President Kennedy were donated to the National Archives by the Kennedy family by an agreement dated October 29, 1966. This agreement limits access to such materials to: (1) persons authorized to act for a Committee of Congress, a Presidential Commission, or any other official agency of the Federal government having authority to investigate matters relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to (2) recognized experts in the field of pathology or related areas of science and technology whose applications are approved by the Kennedy family representative, Mr. Paul Kirk.

So getting access is possible, but it's a chore, and the materials cannot be reproduced.

Maybe the Kennedys will change their minds on this subject someday.

 

[Axxman300]

You don't see more than one head shot in the films?

No. Nobody does. There isn't more than one bullet to the head.

Well, since the EOP shot apparently didn't cause any severe brain damage, I would not expect a huge ejecta splatter to show up on the photographic evidence or to be seen by the witnesses, as it was only a small hole within Kennedy's hair.

ALL ENTRY WOUNDS ARE SMALL HOLES.

Every bullet, no matter the caliber, will hit the head like a hammer.

The EOP shot could have been at z190-224 or after the z313 shot. I'm thinking it was z190-224 because Kennedy's behavior after he emerges behind the sign is something you would expect from someone with some damage to their cerebellum.

I have damage to my cerebellum, Cerebral Palsy, so let me clue you into the signs of someone's cerebellum being damaged by a bullet:

Complete loss of motor skills below the neck.

JFK would have gone limp. Instead he reached for his throat. Ergo no damage to the cerebellum.

You are really bad at this.

You choose to believe one "expert" with limited contact with the body over a long list of others who disagree. You want there to be a conspiracy and you want a second shooter in Dealey Plaza, so you ignore the majority of the facts of this case to embrace the unreliable fringes to support your tragically wrong view.

You have told us you're new to this event, and you have obviously come to it with a CT mind set. I spent over 20 years embracing the lies that you are spreading now, and I'm telling you that you're eating a lot of red herrings.

If you insist on a conspiracy in the death of JFK you are not going to find it in Dealey Plaza. You need to look at Oswald - the lone shooter - and who he knew, hung out with, or was affiliated with in Dallas during the time between his return from Russia until he killed the President.

I doubt you will find anything there either, but that's where any conspiracy will be found, and maybe you might be the guy who unlocks Oswald's driving motive to kill JFK.

 

[BStrong]

No. Nobody does. There isn't more than one bullet to the head.




ALL ENTRY WOUNDS ARE SMALL HOLES.

Every bullet, no matter the caliber, will hit the head like a hammer.




I have damage to my cerebellum, Cerebral Palsy, so let me clue you into the signs of someone's cerebellum being damaged by a bullet:

Complete loss of motor skills below the neck.

JFK would have gone limp. Instead he reached for his throat. Ergo no damage to the cerebellum.

You are really bad at this.

You choose to believe one "expert" with limited contact with the body over a long list of others who disagree. You want there to be a conspiracy and you want a second shooter in Dealey Plaza, so you ignore the majority of the facts of this case to embrace the unreliable fringes to support your tragically wrong view.

You have told us you're new to this event, and you have obviously come to it with a CT mind set. I spent over 20 years embracing the lies that you are spreading now, and I'm telling you that you're eating a lot of red herrings.

If you insist on a conspiracy in the death of JFK you are not going to find it in Dealey Plaza. You need to look at Oswald - the lone shooter - and who he knew, hung out with, or was affiliated with in Dallas during the time between his return from Russia until he killed the President.

I doubt you will find anything there either, but that's where any conspiracy will be found, and maybe you might be the guy who unlocks Oswald's driving motive to kill JFK.

Not to give anything to the CTist bandwagon, but iirc somewhere along the lines of 20 - 25% of gsw to the head produce a larger entrance wound than exit wound.

Area of the skull impacted, trajectory and projectile diameter/velocity are the variables involved.

 

[MicahJava]

Axxman

Here is a book describing the behavior associated with certain types of cerebellar damage:

"...damage to the flocculus, nodulus, and uvula result in a pronounced loss in equilibrium, including truncal ataxia..." (Impairment of the ability to perform smoothly coordinated voluntary movements)

"There is an inability to incorporate vestibular information with body and eye movements."

https://books.google.com/books?id=sor_roKluskC&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241&dq=damage+to+the+flocculus,+nodulus,+and+uvula+result+in+a+pronounced+loss+in+equilibrium,+including+truncal+ataxia&source=bl&ots=JaL5m0zlkz&sig=OUrA0PxhW6HgbFls_FE2F4dI97Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ3JfU8szSAhUJJiYKHYVKDxoQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=damage%20to%20the%20flocculus%2C%20nodulus%2C%20and%20uvula%20result%20in%20a%20pronounced%20loss%20in%20equilibrium%2C%20including%20truncal%20ataxia&f=false

Like you said, loss of motor skills below the neck. Cerebellar damage makes it difficult to grasp an object. Notice in the Zapruder film how Kennedy appears to be trying to touch his throat and point to it, however he seems to miss and move his hands up more towards his face. It's as if he was hit by a bullet that made him instantly stinking drunk.

 

[CORed]

No. Nobody does. There isn't more than one bullet to the head.




ALL ENTRY WOUNDS ARE SMALL HOLES.

Every bullet, no matter the caliber, will hit the head like a hammer.




I have damage to my cerebellum, Cerebral Palsy, so let me clue you into the signs of someone's cerebellum being damaged by a bullet:

Complete loss of motor skills below the neck.

JFK would have gone limp. Instead he reached for his throat. Ergo no damage to the cerebellum.

You are really bad at this.

You choose to believe one "expert" with limited contact with the body over a long list of others who disagree. You want there to be a conspiracy and you want a second shooter in Dealey Plaza, so you ignore the majority of the facts of this case to embrace the unreliable fringes to support your tragically wrong view.

You have told us you're new to this event, and you have obviously come to it with a CT mind set. I spent over 20 years embracing the lies that you are spreading now, and I'm telling you that you're eating a lot of red herrings.

If you insist on a conspiracy in the death of JFK you are not going to find it in Dealey Plaza. You need to look at Oswald - the lone shooter - and who he knew, hung out with, or was affiliated with in Dallas during the time between his return from Russia until he killed the President.

I doubt you will find anything there either, but that's where any conspiracy will be found, and maybe you might be the guy who unlocks Oswald's driving motive to kill JFK.

I agree with this. IMO, the evidence that Oswald was the sole shooter is overwhelming, notwithstanding all the BS from conspiracy theorists attempting to raise doubt about it.
I think it's very likely that Oswald really was a lone nut, but it is impossible to say with absolute certainty that he wasn't part of some conspiracy.

I suppose there is a remote possibility that there was somebody else in Dealy Plaza taking shots at Kennedy, but there is no credible evidence to support that. Besides, even if it was a conspiracy, there really was no need for more than one shooter. Oswald got the job done. More people there simply increases the risk of being exposed.

The evidence that Oswald had contact with the Cuban Embassy in Mexico is perhaps the one thing that might point to a conspiracy, or that, if nothing else, the Cubans encouraged Oswald to shoot Kennedy. Then again, maybe he was just planning to flee to Cuba after shooting Kennedy.

Of course, Ruby's shooting of Oswald suggests the possibility that co-conspirators wanted to make sure Oswald didn't talk, but it's far from certain that he wasn't a second lone nut. Besides, how did they (whoever they were) know Ruby wouldn't talk? Ruby is plausible as a Mafia hit man, but Oswald really isn't.

After fifty-three years, it is highly unlikely that a conspiracy, if any will be uncovered.

 

[MicahJava]

CORed, it would be physically impossible for Oswald to cause all of the damage to Kennedy if the entry wound in the back of the head was at the original EOP location. Having the entry wound higher than that is a radical revision that nobody who was there agrees with.

 

[Axxman300]

Not to give anything to the CTist bandwagon, but iirc somewhere along the lines of 20 - 25% of gsw to the head produce a larger entrance wound than exit wound.

Area of the skull impacted, trajectory and projectile diameter/velocity are the variables involved.

I was thinking high-powered rifles, but I defer.

 

[Axxman300]

Axxman
Like you said, loss of motor skills below the neck. Cerebellar damage makes it difficult to grasp an object. Notice in the Zapruder film how Kennedy appears to be trying to touch his throat and point to it, however he seems to miss and move his hands up more towards his face. It's as if he was hit by a bullet that made him instantly stinking drunk.

He was reaching for the exit wound in his throat, the one everyone saw his receive. Nobody saw a shot to the head...prior to the one shot to the head.

 

[MicahJava]

He was reaching for the exit wound in his throat, the one everyone saw his receive. Nobody saw a shot to the head...prior to the one shot to the head.

Please review my past posts.

 

[MicahJava]

I forgot to add one more bit about Dr. Burkley. Here's a passage from Burkley's affidavit to the HSCA:

"7. I directed the autopsy surgeon to do a complete autopsy and take the time for necessary completion. I supervised the autopsy and directed the fixation and retention of the brain for future study of the course of the bullet or bullets."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=145280#relPageId=436&tab=page

 

[Axxman300]

Please review my past posts.

I have.

There is no evidence to support a second gunshot wound to the head.

Testimony by a guy who thought he saw something 13 years prior is not evidence.

Then you have the problem of a second unseen gunman BEHIND the motorcade:

He would have had to used a Carcano as well to maintain the illusion of a single shooter, and we all know that the Carcano round is devastating, and obvious. If the plan was not to frame Oswald, then there was no reason to fabricate forensic evidence supporting a single shooter. Plus, there was no way for the second shooter to know if Oswald could even get into position in time to make a shot, and synchronizing two shooters in separate locations is tricky even today with radios, and unrealistic in 1963. Your scenario would be very hard to sign onto for any rifleman under the conditions of the assassination.

You can hear them ask, "Are you kidding?"

 

[cmikes]

cmikes, this isn't an issue of trajectory, it's an issue of the damage to the brain. There is no sign of an entry to the cerebellum or the lower occipital lobe. The right cerebellum was right behind the entry wound described in the autopsy report and everybody who saw the body. Please grasp this.

Wait, you're trying to determine the where the entrance and exit wounds are on JFK's skull and you don't think it's an issue of trajectory? Huh?

I honestly don't want this to come off as an attack but seriously? Is this a Poe or are you just completely uninformed on any issue of ballistics? I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no expert on ballistics but even I realize that where the entrance and exit wounds are in a shooting depend heavily on the position of the shooter in relation to the victim and the victim's posture when he was shot.

Where do you think the bullet entered JFK's head from? It's pretty clear from the autopsy report and the photos and x-rays that it's been in the same place for more than 50 years now, above and slightly to the right of the external occipital protuberance. If you have any evidence that all the pathologists that have examined the evidence have lied and the evidence that has gotten out to the public is faked I would like to see your proof.

 

[cmikes]

That's not every pathologist who examined the body, that's not every pathologist who examined the X-rays, and all of them don't agree that the head wounds were caused by one bullet from the rear. The original location of the entry wound, behind the ear near the EOP, cannot have exited the top-right side of the head because the nature of the damage to the brain doesn't support that. What kind of verbal diarrhea are you spewing?

What do you mean by the highlighted? The wound is exactly where it's been for the last more than 50 years, above and slightly to the right of the EOP. It's where the original autopsy put it, it's where the Clark panel put it, it's where the Rockefeller Commission put it, it's where the HSCA medical panel put it, and it's where the ARRB put it. Again, if you have any evidence that all these doctors are completely incompetent, being blackmailed, or members of the evil forces of THEY, let's see it.

What other pathologists have examined the evidence? Can you link to their findings?

You seem to be arguing for an entry wound below the EOP that no one else has ever seen. Could you mark on a picture exactly where you believe that you're seeing a second entrance wound on JFK's head and upload so we can see what you're talking about?

 

[cmikes]

From the National Archives:



So getting access is possible, but it's a chore, and the materials cannot be reproduced.

Maybe the Kennedys will change their minds on this subject someday.

Thanks for the clarification. I remembered that the Kennedy family had ultimate control of the materials but forgot that they had designated a representative to deal with requests.

While I believe that ultimately the autopsy materials should be released so that they could studied by other people, I completely understand the Kennedy family's reluctance. After dealing with the conspiracy buffs ******** for so long I'm sure they don't want high quality pictures of their family member's autopsy plastered all over the internet and in books making money for conspiracy theorists.

 

[traxy]

Having the entry wound higher than that is a radical revision that nobody who was there agrees with.

The photos, the x-rays and the lead debris pattern document exactly where the entry wound was located. No guess work required.