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The Turin Shroud: The Image of Edessa created in c. 300-400 AD?

Come the weekend, I'll be reunited with a nearly flogged-to-death workhorse laptop that has a handy bit of installed software. It tells you what photoediting programs are doing to the original image. It was what I used back in 2015 to show how altering contrast simultaneously alters blue/yellow composition, for better or for worse, in colour images (analogous to black/white in monochrome editing) and incidentally that starting Shroud Scope images betray evidence of having had contrast removed (underpinning the legitimacy, questioned at the time, of adding contrast back for starters, with optimal choice of contrast-control software to be discovered by trial and error).

Forgive me if I keep my head down here until I have that analysis performed!
 
All I need is a hand lens and scalpel, for detaching surviving encrusted body image from a few sites mechanically - in place of Rogers' sticky tape that introduced all kinds of complications and uncertainties.


Your ignorance of microscopy and microanalysis is showing. You might as well try to use a hand lens to resolve craters on the moon as resolve the particle encrustations on the flax fibers on the shroud. The zoom stereoscope used by Heller and Adler had probably 40-60X magnification, far more than a hand lens, and they certainly didn't see the particles with it.

There are all sorts of techniques for sampling, cleaning and moving fine particles in the 1-5 um size range. Moving them, for example from a microscope slide to a SEM stub, is routinely done by hand using tungsten wire ablated to an extremely fine point with a flame and sodium nitrite.

You're clinging to the diimide test like a drowning man, in the face of consilient results from the following tests on the chromophore particles:

-color and size
-index of refraction and birefringence
-elemental analysis
-x-ray diffraction

My offer stands to share a copy of McCrone's paper, though I doubt you'll take me up on it; I think you're far too invested in your flour experiments to seriously consider conflicting evidence.
 
download-baby-in-warzone.jpg


Could it be that a warzone is not the smartest place to find oneself holding a new(ish) baby? :D

See ya on Monday (provided that laptop still boots up...)
 
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[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/download-baby-in-warzone.jpg[/qimg]

Could it be that a warzone is not the smartest place to find oneself holding a new(ish) baby? :D

See ya on Monday (provided that laptop still boots up...)

You are not holding a new(ish) baby. You are holding a swaddled turnip and pretending it is a baby.
 
If the Shroud image we are given has been doctored by digital means, e.g. altering its pixel composition in RGB terms, then those changes are potentially reversible, using photoediting software, professional or even freebies.

But there is a whole massive body of science that discusses such reversibility, and yet another whole body of forensic methods that relate to the form of study you are attempting. What assurances do you give your reader that you are competent in them?

I say it's time you dropped the attempts to portray this wary hands-on investigator as a fumbling amateur.

Trying to curry sympathy as a "hands-on investigator" does not endow you with the knowledge the sciences I allude to above require. Possessing the tools that apply algebraic transformations to quantized image data does not create the expertise to know whether they will produce reliable results relevant to some hypothesis any more than possessing a chisel makes one Michelangelo. You really do have the burden of proof to show you are competent not just with the operation of the tools but with the mathematical foundations upon which those tools are built. Sadly not all Shroud researchers on either side of the authenticity debate can meet that burden. Many of the papers I've read (and I don't have the citations off the top of my head) apply extremely naive methods, I assume because they simply don't know any better.

For example, when you manipulate contrast interactively, are you looking at the histogram? Or are you looking at the image?
 
Push sliders (and any other problematic "techniques") all you wish, you still have a 14th Century artifact.
 
As stated earlier, I opted NOT to use the sliders in the Zeke filter - the midrange default setting of 50/100 being fine for unmasking and/or accentuating detail that was already there, but overpowered by other aspects of the image. The effect of altering the slider is mainly cosmetic, and, as I say, not used, so no more slider references please.

How can one be absolutely certain that the unmasked detail was there, and not, say, an artefact of the unmasking process? Once can't, obviously, having to rely mainly but not exclusively on commonsense. (Outside of theoretical physics -quantum mechanics etc - science is mainly a matter of commonsense).

Commonsense is needless to say a questionable entity - so what's a non-commonsense more targeted way of dealing with the charge that one's dealing simply with an artefact-generating bit of software?

I've spent the last few hours taking each of the 20 contrast-enhanced /restored Shroud Scope images I posted back in June 2012, and adding a before/after Zeke appendix to the posting (enter "shroud scope 10" into your search engine to see the 20 new images). Whilst doing so, a validation test occurred to me.

Sometimes one can see the zig-zag herringbone weave of the linen, sometimes not. Given that Zeke is being hailed here for its ability to reveal Shroud detail that is initially obscured but otherwise genuine and non-artefactual might it be possible to locate an image where the herringbone weave is scarcely if at all visible initially but selectively enhanced by Zeke?

Yes, there's at least one. It's an image of a bloodstain on the arm, where the combination of adhering blood AND Zeke has unmasked what we know for certain is there to start with - that distinctive herringbone weave.

fig-16-pre-post-zeke1.png


I shall try to think up more validating tests, but can make no promises...
 
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Once can't, obviously, having to rely mainly but not exclusively on commonsense. (Outside of theoretical physics -quantum mechanics etc - science is mainly a matter of commonsense).

That is most assuredly not true for the sciences involved in image processing. Nor would I daresay it is valid for many other sciences. I think of "common sense" as a synonym for intuition. While I respect the value of intuition during the process of scientific inquiry, I do not regard it as a valid method in and of itself. Scientific methodology is about finding objective, repeatable ways of observing and measuring phenomena. By that definition one scientist's intuition may differ from another's, and so not be repeatable.

Sometimes one can see the zig-zag herringbone weave of the linen, sometimes not. Given that Zeke is being hailed here for its ability to reveal Shroud detail that is initially obscured but otherwise genuine and non-artefactual might it be possible to locate an image where the herringbone weave is scarcely if at all visible initially but selectively enhanced by Zeke?

This proposed test would be both subjective and would use only data from the image domain. How would that be a proper validation?

I shall try to think up more validating tests, but can make no promises...

When you are manipulating the contrast in the images, are you doing it interactively while looking at the image itself? Or are you doing things such as using the histogram as a statistical model?
 
That is most assuredly not true for the sciences involved in image processing. Nor would I daresay it is valid for many other sciences. I think of "common sense" as a synonym for intuition. While I respect the value of intuition during the process of scientific inquiry, I do not regard it as a valid method in and of itself. Scientific methodology is about finding objective, repeatable ways of observing and measuring phenomena. By that definition one scientist's intuition may differ from another's, and so not be repeatable.



This proposed test would be both subjective and would use only data from the image domain. How would that be a proper validation?



When you are manipulating the contrast in the images, are you doing it interactively while looking at the image itself? Or are you doing things such as using the histogram as a statistical model?




As flagged up a couple of comments ago, I can't really respond in detail to questions re the arithmetic, far less statistics, until I have some numerical data under my belt, which I hope to obtain at the weekend using specific software for image analysis.

That too, btw, is responsive I found to suck-it-and-see testing, read empirical pragmatic analysis, where one starts with a blank sheet and simply explores the effect of making systematic changes on the rgb composition etc. It was through doing that I was able to suss out the simple mathematical formula that explains the changes in hue that occur when one alters contrast settings.

That was some 18 months ago. Search: shroud turin contrast rgb aug 2015 and look for the posting with flour power in its title!
 
...which I hope to obtain at the weekend using specific software for image analysis.

Again, obtaining tools does not create knowledge.

You seem to be posturing yourself as some sort of expert. However I don't see any foundation for that claim. You told us you shouldn't be considered an amateur because of your hands-on experience. Then, paradoxically, you told us that while you might be an amateur, everyone else is an amateur too. I can't square that approach with the relevant body of knowledge. Then your third statement seemed to suggest no real expertise was needed since science was merely "common sense." I really can't square that with what I'm reading as a claim to expertise. You're simultaneously trying to say you are an expert, but also that there are no experts.

It was through doing that I was able to suss out the simple mathematical formula that explains the changes in hue that occur when one alters contrast settings.

And do you know if that would be considered any sort of valid method in the field? Did you apply any sort of error analysis or blind empiricism? You suggest there's a paper out there I can find and read. Was it submitted to a relevant peer-reviewed journal, or was it self-published?

Still waiting for you to answer whether you're performing your contrast manipulations while looking at the image, or by means of looking at the histogram.
 
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Again, obtaining tools does not create knowledge.

You seem to be posturing yourself as some sort of expert. However I don't see any foundation for that claim. You told us you shouldn't be considered an amateur because of your hands-on experience. Then, paradoxically, you told us that while you might be an amateur, everyone else is an amateur too. I can't square that approach with the relevant body of knowledge. Then your third statement seemed to suggest no real expertise was needed since science was merely "common sense." I really can't square that with what I'm reading as a claim to expertise. You're simultaneously trying to say you are an expert, but also that there are no experts.



And do you know if that would be considered any sort of valid method in the field? Did you apply any sort of error analysis or blind empiricism? You suggest there's a paper out there I can find and read. Was it submitted to a relevant peer-reviewed journal, or was it self-published?

Still waiting for you to answer whether you're performing your contrast manipulations while looking at the image, or by means of looking at the histogram.


Sorry, but this is getting a little too personal for my liking.

I've advanced a hypothesis which is testable, and minimally destructive to the Shroud. All that's required are some SCRAPINGS from the Shroud.

(The previous comments re Adler and Heller from another commentator are incidentally ill-informed: neither went with the STURP team in 1978 to see the Shroud at close quarters with their own eyes, both were reliant on sticky tape samples provided by Rogers (having first spent a year with McCrone and mishandled we're told). They were of stripped FIBRES, not whole weave, so my proposed tests have not been performed previously, at least to my knowledge.

I'll now stick with my decision to take that break, maybe returning next week, maybe not.
 
Sorry, but this is getting a little too personal for my liking.

What's personal about it? It's not clear whether you're presenting yourself as an expert, but if you are then you have the responsibility to lay the foundation of that expertise. I'm asking you some simple, straightforward questions about your techniques and methods. This is necessary to assess how grounded in the state of the art your approach has been and therefore how reliable the findings are likely to be by our best standards. Your defensiveness puzzles me.

All that's required are some SCRAPINGS from the Shroud.

Be that as it may, you seem to have already advanced some findings based on analysis of the various digital images you've obtained from various sources. Upon questioning, you don't seem to be aware of many factors that would affect such an analysis, and this raises issues regarding how well we can expect it to support the findings thus far. You have the burden to prove your analysis is sound, and that burden is not satisfied by your simply having performed the analysis, or allusions to common sense.

Again, the tools used in these analysis are, generally, easily available. However the scientific knowledge to use them to test a particular hypothesis to a scientific level of certainty does not come automatically with the tool. Nor is it a matter of intuition or subjective impression. Hence it appears to me that the red flags being raised about those findings have merit. I apologize if this seems superficially like a personal attack, but examining the foundation of claim to expertise necessarily requires questions directed at the person making the claim.

If you're not making a claim to expertise in image analysis then you can certainly clarify that by making an unequivocal statement. But if your claim is that no expertise is required, then I'm afraid I'll have to strongly disagree with that.
 
Push sliders (and any other problematic "techniques") all you wish, you still have a 14th Century artifact.

I could be mistaken. but the issue in this thread is not the authenticity (it's not authentic), but the manner with which the image was produced.
 
The previous comments re Adler and Heller from another commentator are incidentally ill-informed: neither went with the STURP team in 1978 to see the Shroud at close quarters with their own eyes, both were reliant on sticky tape samples provided by Rogers (having first spent a year with McCrone and mishandled we're told). They were of stripped FIBRES, not whole weave, so my proposed tests have not been performed previously, at least to my knowledge.


Nowhere did I say H&A examned the shroud itself. Yes, they lifted fibers bearing the chromophore material using Scotch-type tape, so what? It's a technique often used for sampling with minimal effect on a source. You know well, or should, that he shroud authorities would not allow a more destructive sampling of the image area. I'm having a good laugh right now, picturing the reaction of the shroud PTB as you approach their treasured artifact, scalpel in hand.

You haven't addressed any of the substance of my post and now you've begun to impugn McCrone (how about a cite?), even though you can't be bothered to familiarize yourself with his methods or results. Quite the scientific approach you've got there. :rolleyes:
 
[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/download-baby-in-warzone.jpg[/qimg]

Could it be that a warzone is not the smartest place to find oneself holding a new(ish) baby? :D

See ya on Monday (provided that laptop still boots up...)

Your experience in war is clearly very different from mine.
 
An RGB analysis quickly confirmed what I suspected, namely that the Zeke filter is exceedingly subtle in its action, working mainly, probably exclusively, by a combination of image brightness and contrast, with the two acting in concert to demonstrate without a doubt the presence of ENCRUSTED material (body image as well as blood!).

So how come I missed the 'encrusted', correction, encrusted/partially eroded nature of the Shroud body image previously when using MS Office Picture Manager?

Answer - I was using only the first 3 of the available settings, having overlooked two that were lurking behind a somewhat inconspicuous "More" tab.

When one deploys all 5, and optimizes settings (again, checked against RGB composition to ensure the changes are minimal in colour terms) one can essentially reproduce, correction, replace Zeke with a more flexible program, dare one say research TOOL.

I'll add some images here in a day or two, showing that the MS Office alone (no Zeke!) is perfectly adequate to back up what I believe to be a major finding.

Title of my next posting (own site)?

Maybe: "Turin Shroud body image is a partially-eroded encrustation of unknown imprinting medium, probably flour-derived Maillard browning products".

Thank you for the feedback (well, some of it). What I should maybe have said at the start of posting here was that the project began 5 years ago as a scientific (i.e. trial and error) learning curve, reported warts an' all online in real time (first time ever?)

So if the methodology looks a bit tentative at times, that is indeed the case: the essence of science, in my view, is always to view each new promising but non-validated tool with a degree of scepticism initially, indeed to break off from the main project and make the tool itself a project within a project, starting as I said earlier with a blank sheet of paper, and putting the tool through its paces with known reference systems.

Thank you for your patience and forbearance, while I - and your good selves- got my head round the uncertainties of that otherwise welcome Zeke clue to the real nature of the Shroud body image.
 
PS. Using the two new (previously overlooked) MS Office Picture Manager settings, I find that setting them at 0/100 emphasizes the encrusted surface image, while setting at 100/0 emphasizes the yellow underlay. (Fortunately, between cheeks and hair there are bilateral vertical white, non-imprinted strips that allow one to interpret the yellow as part of the body image, as distinct from aged linen background.)

As stated earlier, I believe the solid encrustation to be baked-on solid crust from a flour-imprinting agent, while the yellow underlay represents a pigmented liquid cocktail that leaked into the underlying fibres, probably at the high oven temperature - 180 to 200 degrees Celsius - required for Maillard browning of the flour imprint.
 
An RGB analysis...

Elaborate, please. Did you invent this test yourself? Are you aware of standard color controls in the photography industry? Do they use only RGB?

...with the two acting in concert to demonstrate without a doubt the presence of ENCRUSTED material (body image as well as blood!).

Are you looking at the image when applying these algorithms? Or are you using the histogram(s) as a statistical model to guide your application? It's really a very simple question, and your growing reluctance to address it is probably inciting your readers here to infer an answer that is not favorable to your claim.

Answer - I was using only the first 3 of the available settings, having overlooked two that were lurking behind a somewhat inconspicuous "More" tab.

Can you describe the algorithms used by any of these "settings?" Can you describe in exactly what way they will tend to reveal information that would support a finding that the Shroud is "encrusted" and not produce a false positive?

...again, checked against RGB composition to ensure the changes are minimal in colour terms

What other color models did you use in your attempt to validate your findings? Are there color models besides RGB that would be more appropriate to your study?

Thank you for the feedback (well, some of it).

The criticism of your method is valid for the reasons given. You seem reluctant to address the reasons. You just seem to be chafing at the fact that you're being criticized, even going so far as to insinuate that questioning your methods amounts to a personal attack or invasion of privacy. While it is sometimes disappointing to face criticism for work in which you've invested a lot of time, it is necessary to the process. The strength of your findings lies not in how much time you spent arriving at them, but how they weather the worst of valid criticism.

as a scientific (i.e. trial and error) learning curve...

You spend a lot of time trying to tell people what science is. Specifically you seem to spend a lot of time describing your approach and then just slapping the label "scientific" on it. That puts the cart before the horse. If you are going to style your results as scientifically sound, then you bear the burden to prove you have conformed to the appropriate methods and understanding. If you don't know what those are, well then you have more homework to do.

Your ongoing desire to lecture to the readership about how to practice science once again makes it ambiguous whether you're claiming expertise. It's incongruous to approach your topic from the "trial and error" point of view and (as you do below) beg forgiveness for incidental errors or omissions in method, and at the same time rebut criticism by trying to instruct the critics on what is appropriate practice in science and insist that you are following it. While expertise exists along a continuum, it would be wise for you to state unequivocally where along that continuum you want your presentation to fall.

...reported warts an' all online in real time (first time ever?)

Responsible scientists don't drawn conclusions or publish findings until they are confident the results are sound enough to be trusted by a lay public. That's not to say partial results aren't shared among peers for comment and review. However, if that's what you're doing here and if you're thus going to admit your findings have "warts," then you can't have an emotional response every time someone notices a wart. That makes it seem like you're less interested in determining how the image on the Shroud was produce than in being praised as a clever and skilled scientist.

And you don't get to assume all warts are small. You don't get to assume your approach is fundamentally sound and could err only in a detail here or there. You have to consider the possibility that your image analysis techniques have no power to discover what you want to find out.

So if the methodology looks a bit tentative at times, that is indeed the case...

Then why do you seem defensive about questions directed at your methodology? Validation of method is essentially what the process of peer review in science hopes to accomplish, and it's a strong pillar of scientific practice. You don't get to be coy about your methods and simultaneously bristle when your approach is then characterized as amateur.

the essence of science, in my view, is always to view each new promising but non-validated tool with a degree of scepticism initially, indeed to break off from the main project and make the tool itself a project within a project, starting as I said earlier with a blank sheet of paper, and putting the tool through its paces with known reference systems.

Yes, you have the responsibility to validate your methods before you use them and before you draw conclusions. The easiest and best way to do that is to understand the tools that already exist and the sciences that created them. Making up tools and techniques as you go, without due regard to the state of the art, is a hallmark of pseudoscience. If it's important to you to avoid being lumped in with the pseudoscientists, then you need to be more forthright and less defensive about the review you're receiving here.
 

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