Who are the anti-semites?

[Travis]

The only left anti semites I ever encountered were the Truther lot circa 2006.

Outside of that I've seen many criticize certain policies of Israel but that is it. They don't talk about wanting to kill all Jews. They don't vandalize synagogues. They don't think Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

But to certain people you are either all in on Israel or you just hate Jews. I note many of the people cultivating this divide don't even live in Israel.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Well, when leftists go into Assad apologia for using VX gas on children and condemn Israel for doing far less, there's a problem...

 

[blutoski]

The only left anti semites I ever encountered were the Truther lot circa 2006.

Outside of that I've seen many criticize certain policies of Israel but that is it. They don't talk about wanting to kill all Jews. They don't vandalize synagogues. They don't think Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

But to certain people you are either all in on Israel or you just hate Jews. I note many of the people cultivating this divide don't even live in Israel.

I've personally met what I would consider to be 'leftist' antisemites, so I can't say they're an invention of the right... however, my observation is that they're rare.

Specifically, it was one of the reasons I left Adbusters Magazine. I had joined in the 1980s when their mandate was consumer protection - I felt it aligned with my skeptical interests at the time.

However, their directors were in that grey area where they were convinced they were criticizing 'international bankers'. Where they crossed a line in my opinion was when they decided to publish a list of 'undesireable international bankers' and also a list of 'suspicious consultants' to the Bush administration - every single one of whom was Jewish.

So, it was pretty clear to me what was motivating them, even if they could sustain their cognitive dissonance. I had to resign to save my conscience.

 

[Giordano]

As an actual, card-carrying Jew, my experience has been that the vast weight of antisemitism comes from people who identify as conservative or farther right.

I think the myth that the left is antisemitic arises from the notion that it is somehow antisemitic to in any way disagree with hard-line Israeli policies regarding the Palestinians. Certainly there are some orthodox Jews (like Trump's son in law) who votee with Republicans because of a perception that they more strongly support Israel.

My personal feeling is that if Israelis themselves can't agree on what to do, it doesn't make me anti-Zionist to also be conflicted about the issues.

n.b. I've been to Israel. It is, above all other things, hot.

Exactly my experience and viewpoint too. Most of what I see presented by the right as left-wing anti-Semitism is really an expression of anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian political views. They are not focused on Jews as people but on the policies of the Israel government as viewed from a left wing perspective.

Certainly many of these anti-Israeli criticisms are unbalanced and unfair- selectively faulting Israel for policies that are not questioned by the left when implemented by most other countries. For all of my disappointment and anger with many Israeli policies I cannot deny that Israel is much, much more of a democratic, free, and pleasant place to live, even for Palestinians, than any of its neighbors. But from what I can see, that selective left-wing criticism stems more from an anti "Western" pro-"underdog" bias than an anti-Jewish bias. When Israel first was founded as a modern country and was the "underdog" (as well as being far less dominated by right-wing religious fanatics) it was very much favored by the political left.

Nor do I think that being right-wing inevitably means being anti-Semitic. There are many aspects to right-wing philosophy totally unrelated to racism. And there are right-wing Jews (talk to my Uncle- or better still, don't). That said, however, certainly a lot of racists/anti-Semites also identify as right-wing. I am not quite certain why.

I too have been to Israel and it is both hot and a lot of empty dessert. Plus being surrounded by enemies. I think it would have made a lot more sense to build the country in a quiet corner of Canada, rather than be so influenced by where the Wailing Wall was.

 

[caveman1917]

Well, when leftists go into Assad apologia for using VX gas on children and condemn Israel for doing far less, there's a problem...

Yes, but it's probably not an anti-semitic problem. It's a problem of defending states which are seen to be against US imperialism. Assad's Syria is considered to withstand US imperialism, Israel is considered an ally of US imperialism, hence the difference.

 

[Giordano]

Well, when leftists go into Assad apologia for using VX gas on children and condemn Israel for doing far less, there's a problem...

Gee- I haven't seen any of those apologies. I must have missed them.

But as noted in my post above- yes, there is significant anti-Israel bias on the Left, but to me (as a Jew) it seems to be primarily a manifestation of an anti-Western/anti-"First World" viewpoint rather than an anti-Jewish one.

 

[caveman1917]

The only left anti semites I ever encountered were the Truther lot circa 2006.

Outside of that I've seen many criticize certain policies of Israel but that is it. They don't talk about wanting to kill all Jews. They don't vandalize synagogues. They don't think Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

Thinking Israel doesn't have the right to exist is not, by itself, an anti-semitic position. It's an anti-zionist position, where zionism is essentially nationalism for jews. Hence one can think Israel doesn't have a right to exist on anti-nationalist grounds, without the jews or anti-semitism really coming into it per se.

 

[blutoski]

Yes, but it's probably not an anti-semitic problem. It's a problem of defending states which are seen to be against US imperialism. Assad's Syria is considered to withstand US imperialism, Israel is considered an ally of US imperialism, hence the difference.

More specifically, IF the purpose is to influence one's own (for Americans, this means "USA") government policy...

Since the US is already effectively at war with Assad, there's not much further to be gained from protesting.

In contrast, the US is writing big cheques to supply Israel's army. If the goal is to persuade Congress to intervene against human rights violations, the return on investment for criticizing Israel obtains a lot more.

 

[blutoski]

Gee- I haven't seen any of those apologies. I must have missed them.

But as noted in my post above- yes, there is significant anti-Israel bias on the Left, but to me (as a Jew) it seems to be primarily a manifestation of an anti-Western/anti-"First World" viewpoint rather than an anti-Jewish one.

I think it's also bound up with anti-capitalism and anti-globalism. That's certainly where I think the Adbusters staff were coming from. 30 years later, the same sentiment can probably be found in Occupy Wall Street. I've never done a real analysis, but I would be some money that there's an antisemitic streak in the Occupy movement.

 

[caveman1917]

More specifically, IF the purpose is to influence one's own (for Americans, this means "USA") government policy...

Since the US is already effectively at war with Assad, there's not much further to be gained from protesting.

In contrast, the US is writing big cheques to supply Israel's army. If the goal is to persuade Congress to intervene against human rights violations, the return on investment for criticizing Israel obtains a lot more.

You do realize that there are people who use this form of argument (ie defending states who are seen to oppose US imperialism) who are not Americans?

 

[caveman1917]

I think it's also bound up with anti-capitalism and anti-globalism. That's certainly where I think the Adbusters staff were coming from. 30 years later, the same sentiment can probably be found in Occupy Wall Street. I've never done a real analysis, but I would be some money that there's an antisemitic streak in the Occupy movement.

There was a lot of fascist entryism in the Occupy movement, which indeed brought in exactly this "down with the Jewish bankers!" kind of stuff.

 

[varwoche]

The increase in traffic to such sites, however small it would be, is enough for me to ask that no one else participate. And with that I am done here!

Better to add a few clicks than people remain ignorant that such people/organizations exist.

I understand your reluctance though. You could use the wayback machine instead of actually visiting the sites.

 

[Loss Leader]

Thinking Israel doesn't have the right to exist is not, by itself, an anti-semitic position. It's an anti-zionist position, where zionism is essentially nationalism for jews. Hence one can think Israel doesn't have a right to exist on anti-nationalist grounds, without the jews or anti-semitism really coming into it per se.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. Israel has a right to exist. The Jewish people have a right to our homeland. The problem with how the arabs who were living in Palestine when modern Israel was founded is completely different from whether there should be a Jewish State.

Except for the ultra-orthodox (who don't believe a Jewish State should exist until the great temple is rebuilt), I've never heard anyone profess total anti-Zionism who wasn't using it as code for antisemitism.

 

[varwoche]

For the purpose of this exercise, are Islamists left or right?

While Islamists have certain similarities to right-wing christian nuts, I consider them as outside the US political spectrum.

I'm holding off until I see if Caper wants to participate, and then presumably we would hash out some parameters.

 

[caveman1917]

Except for the ultra-orthodox (who don't believe a Jewish State should exist until the great temple is rebuilt), I've never heard anyone profess total anti-Zionism who wasn't using it as code for antisemitism.

Anarchists? Libertarian communists? Pretty much everyone who is opposed to the State would, by extension, also oppose a Jewish State. I know I do.

 

[varwoche]

Then find a sensible metric. You're just proposing to measure your google-fu.

Anyone can join in, and there's no hurry. That should equal out google-fu.

How? By committee? By popular vote? By appeal to some impartial judge?

I don't picture anything near that formal. More like, we array examples then discuss what we may have learned.

Your metric isn't going to work.

Work at what? There are lots of things we could learn even if we don't determine if left or right is more anti-semitic -- which we surely won't, as I already stated. I (and like minded readers) might learn that left-wing anti-semitism is more prevalent than we realized. Caper (and like minded readers) might learn that right-wing anti-semitism is more prevalent than they realized. Caper might learn that his claim is based on biased supposition. Etc. Upon learning these things, we will be better equipped to oppose anti-semitism in all forms. Or not, no harm in trying.

 

[Hercules56]

Do Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda count as Right-wing or Left-wing?

 

[Noztradamus]

While Islamists have certain similarities to right-wing christian nuts, I consider them as outside the US political spectrum.

I'm holding off until I see if Caper wants to participate, and then presumably we would hash out some parameters.

Maybe Caper will wait until you finish publishing all the rules, conditions, exemptions, and qualifiers to your game

 

[Caper]

This is they type of modern Jew hatred you get now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3e4hmxmITE . Guy like David Duke, the old school Jew haters are all old, with no power or influence. They are just jokes. Most right wing hatred in North America hates Muslims and other black/brown immigrants more then Jews.

 

[JoeMorgue]

And in America at least we have the Religious Right Elephant in the Room, the fact that a huge number of people don't give a toss about Israel, they just need an "Israel" to exist so it can get destroyed when Jesus comes back.

I'm not making that up by the way. The influence of essentially pop-culture fan fiction Biblical Prophecy on the American government's foreign relations with Israel is a legit factor.