General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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So now the Holocaust includes atrocities committed by the Japanese?

They were the Nazis Partners in Crime. A junior partner, but a partner nevertheless.
In one area, they were worse. The Nazi Medical experiments on Concentration Camp inmates were amateur hour compared to the infamous Unit 731.
 

I did.

The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators....During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived "racial inferiority": Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals.

This is saying that the Holocaust was the persecution of the Jews but, while the Holocaust was happening, other groups were also being persecuted. The language here is without a doubt misleading. But read carefully it's clear that the Holocaust is the Jewish tragedy.

With misleading language like this and contradictory information coming from this and other reputable sources it's no wonder the public is confused.
 
You seem to be the only one confused here.

By the way, did you figure out the real answer to your question about the Rudolf quote yet?
 
non-Jewish victims of PERSECUTION. Not non-Jewish victims of THE HOLOCAUST. Note the difference.

If you want to go with the expansive definition of the Holocaust, go right ahead. Lord knows there are enough pop-historians who buy into the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust that Simon Wiesenthal made up to give non-Jews a reason to care about the event. I hope you're not one of the people who was upset that Donald Trump didn't mention the Jews on Holocaust Remembrance day, what with Jews being just one of the groups of innocent civilian persecuted by the Nazis.

Perhaps you are confused (still), so I guess I will need to re-post my earlier post

About the Holocaust: The Non-Jewish Victims of Persecution in Germany

The Nazis considered certain groups to be a socio-racial “problem” to be expurgated from the German nation. Victims included Sinti and Roma, homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses and the disabled, some 200,000 of whom were murdered as part of the Euthanasia Program.

This is a direct, verbatim quote from the Yad Vashem website. If they did not consider the PERSECUTION of non-Jews was part of the Holocaust, how come Yad Vashem has this information listed UNDER THE HEADING ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST. Why is it not under its own heading?
 
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Ever hear the expression "Hoisted by your own petard"

This is verbatim, from the link YOU posted!

WHAT WAS THE HOLOCAUST?

In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million. Most European Jews lived in countries that Nazi Germany would occupy or influence during World War II. By 1945, the Germans and their collaborators killed nearly two out of every three European Jews as part of the "Final Solution," the Nazi policy to murder the Jews of Europe.

Although Jews, whom the Nazis deemed a priority danger to Germany, were the primary victims of Nazi racism, other victims included some 200,000 Roma (Gypsies). At least 200,000 mentally or physically disabled patients, mainly Germans, living in institutional settings, were murdered in the so-called Euthanasia Program.
 
Notice how resorting to nit picking disputes about semantics is a tactic often used when somebody is losing an argument badly?
 
Notice how resorting to nit picking disputes about semantics is a tactic often used when somebody is losing an argument badly?

Yep. Captain Howdy's initial claim relative to my post #2133 was that the bodies my Uncle saw at Bergen-Belsen were not victims of the Holocaust because;

a. they weren't Jews (apparently - how he knows this I have no idea), and
b. they weren't gassed.

And apparently, because I consider non-Jewish victims as part of the Holocaust (as does Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum) , that makes me an anti-semite.... go figure.
 
Notice how resorting to nit picking disputes about semantics is a tactic often used when somebody is losing an argument badly?

You can't have an intelligent conversation unless words have a definite meaning. Do you believe that the Jews didn't suffer in any more or less than Jehovah's witness or Catholics under the Nazi regime?
 
Yep. Captain Howdy's initial claim relative to my post #2133 was that the bodies my Uncle saw at Bergen-Belsen were not victims of the Holocaust because;

a. they weren't Jews (apparently - how he knows this I have no idea), and
b. they weren't gassed.

And apparently, because I consider non-Jewish victims as part of the Holocaust (as does Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum) , that makes me an anti-semite.... go figure.

No, I said your Uncle didn't see victims of the Holocaust at Bergen Belsen because the Holocaust had been over for months by the time he got there. If you think the Holocaust was still a work in progress, you need to ask yourself why your Uncle continued murdering prisoners by the tens of thousands after they were "liberated." Why didn't he stop the Holocaust from continuing?

No, you're an anti-semite because you deny that the persecution of the Jews was in any way different than the persecution of any other group of people in Nazi Germany.

And I didn't say they weren't victims of the Holocaust because they weren't gassed. Jews were killed by a variety of methods including gassing. But it is a fact that none of the bodies your Uncle saw at Bergen Belsen had been gassed.
 
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No, I said your Uncle didn't see victims of the Holocaust at Bergen Belsen because the Holocaust had been over for months by the time he got there.

So, the thousands of still living emaciated people, many of whom WERE Jews (the yellow Star of David on their clothing was a clue) who were at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 were not victims of the Holocaust?

If you think the Holocaust was still a work in progress

So the tens of thousand of bodies he helped bury, bodies of people who were starved to death at the camp, many of whom WERE Jews (again, the yellow Star of David on their clothing was a clue) who were at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 were not victims of the Holocaust?

you need to ask yourself why your Uncle continued murdering prisoners by the tens of thousands after they were "liberated." Why didn't he stop the Holocaust from continuing?

Disingenuous claptrap. I am sure my Uncle did not murder any prisoners
Looks like you are getting desperate now, resorting to insults and lies.

No, you're an anti-semite because you deny that the persecution of the Jews was in any way different than the persecution of any other group of people in Nazi Germany.

anti-Semite
ˌantɪˈsiːmʌɪt,ˌantɪˈsɛmʌɪt/
noun
noun: anti-Semite; plural noun: anti-Semites; noun: antisemite; plural noun: antisemites

a person who is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews.

Please explain to us all how acknowledging the suffering and the murdering of non-Jews in the Holocaust makes me "hostile to or prejudiced against Jews"

And I didn't say they weren't victims of the Holocaust because they weren't gassed.

No, you see, that is exactly what you said...

"Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust. .... He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed."
 
Lord knows there are enough pop-historians who buy into the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust that Simon Wiesenthal made up to give non-Jews a reason to care about the event.

Sorry, are you some sort of denialist?


Which, when tied with the quote I pulled from their site, agrees with me.
I'll post it again, since you seem to be having trouble:
The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others...

And seriously, calling us all anti-semite really does diminish the meaning of the term.
 
Sorry, are you some sort of denialist?

That Simon Wiesenthal made up the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims is not in dispute.


Which, when tied with the quote I pulled from their site, agrees with me.
I'll post it again, since you seem to be having trouble:
Where did you pull your quote ("The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others...")? The page I linked to is pretty clear that the Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews but that during the era of the Holocaust, other groups were also persecuted. It doesn't say that the Holocaust includes those other persecuted groups.

And seriously, calling us all anti-semite really does diminish the meaning of the term.
You're not all anti-semites. Most of you understand that Holocaust denial is anti-semitic.
 
So, the thousands of still living emaciated people, many of whom WERE Jews (the yellow Star of David on their clothing was a clue) who were at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 were not victims of the Holocaust?



So the tens of thousand of bodies he helped bury, bodies of people who were starved to death at the camp, many of whom WERE Jews (again, the yellow Star of David on their clothing was a clue) who were at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945 were not victims of the Holocaust?
I don't know what your Uncle told you about burying tens of thousands of bodies with stars of david on their clothing. The photographs I have seen of the camp show corpses without any clothes at all. Many of those bodies appear emaciated and show signs of typhus. I don't recall seeing photographs of emaciated but alive prisoners wearing stars of david on their clothing.

These photographs mesh with the known history of the camp. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the camp served as a holding camp for Jews who were emigrating or being exchanged for German nationals held abroad. Conditions in the camp were generally good until the end of the war. That's when huge numbers of prisoners from all over Germany were brought to Belsen and a typhus epidemic broke out. Many Jews --including Anne Frank--died in the camp but most of people who died there at the end of the war weren't Jewish.

I'm sorry if this doesn't mesh with your family lore of the Uncle who saw the Holocaust first hand. Tens of thousands of dead bodies of people who died from typhus after starvation weakened their immune system isn't evidence of Germany's systematic plan to exterminate the Jews even if some of the those bodies were Jewish.

But why are Jews suddenly important anyway? You've been promoting the all-inclusive definition of the Holocaust where Jews were just one of the victim groups.


Disingenuous claptrap. I am sure my Uncle did not murder any prisoners
Looks like you are getting desperate now, resorting to insults and lies.
Tens of thousands of prisoners died after the British took over the camp. You're uncle might not have personally shot any prisoners but he bears the collective guilt of failure to stop what you call the Holocaust.

Remember, the Holocaust isn't just the murder of the Jews. It's also the complete disregard for Jewish funeral practices by cremating human remains and burying the bodies of Jews alongside the bodies of gentiles. There are the pictures and movies of thousands of bodies of people you say were Jewish being unceremoniously pushed into mass graves with bulldozers. Those were made after liberation. That's the British who were desecrating human remains.

Please explain to us all how acknowledging the suffering and the murdering of non-Jews in the Holocaust makes me "hostile to or prejudiced against Jews"
Because those non-Jews were not part of the Holocaust. The suffering and murder of non-Jews occurred parallel to the Holocaust. I'm not saying that gentile suffering wasn't real or that gentiles who were persecuted didn't feel pain. A Jew who is beaten to death because he is a member of a group that the Nazis have decided don't have a right to exist feels as much pain and is just as dead as a gentile who is beaten to death just because.

But the Jews were the only group of people who were intended to be exterminated down to the last man woman and child. This what makes the Holocaust unique.

No, you see, that is exactly what you said...

"Nothing your Uncle saw was the result of the Holocaust. .... He didn't see the dead bodies of anybody who had been gassed."
The specific murder weapon is not what makes the Holocaust the Holocaust. The gas chamber was responsible for more Jewish deaths than any other method of execution but roughly half of the deaths weren't from gassing.

I did not mean to imply that your Uncle had to see people who had been gassed to death. But you do know that none of the bodies he saw were those of people who has been killed in a gas chambers, don't you?
 
That Simon Wiesenthal made up the 5,000,000 non-Jewish victims is not in dispute.

That specific number is apparently Wiesenthal's, but he did not "invent" the existence of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html

The actual number seems to be between just over 7 million, to about 1 and a half million, depending on the criteria one uses.
 
That specific number is apparently Wiesenthal's, but he did not "invent" the existence of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html

The actual number seems to be between just over 7 million, to about 1 and a half million, depending on the criteria one uses.

Hitler and his buddies did do one thing that no denier ever denies, that 5 million German military men died fighting for the Nazi regime. Hitler was directly responsible for killing those poor fellows.
 
I don't know what your Uncle told you about burying tens of thousands of bodies with stars of david on their clothing. The photographs I have seen of the camp show corpses without any clothes at all. Many of those bodies appear emaciated and show signs of typhus. I don't recall seeing photographs of emaciated but alive prisoners wearing stars of david on their clothing.
Then your research is lacking. And were you not aware that clothing was removed to be recycled for the next batch of victims?

These photographs mesh with the known history of the camp. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, the camp served as a holding camp for Jews who were emigrating or being exchanged for German nationals held abroad. Conditions in the camp were generally good until the end of the war. That's when huge numbers of prisoners from all over Germany were brought to Belsen and a typhus epidemic broke out. Many Jews --including Anne Frank--died in the camp but most of people who died there at the end of the war weren't Jewish.
Conditions in Bergen-Belsen were generally good? At any time? Are you serious?

I'm sorry if this doesn't mesh with your family lore of the Uncle who saw the Holocaust first hand. Tens of thousands of dead bodies of people who died from typhus after starvation weakened their immune system isn't evidence of Germany's systematic plan to exterminate the Jews even if some of the those bodies were Jewish.
Exactly how long is it that you think it takes to reach such a condition?

But why are Jews suddenly important anyway? You've been promoting the all-inclusive definition of the Holocaust where Jews were just one of the victim groups.
Soviet POWs don't count? 5+ million of them?

Tens of thousands of prisoners died after the British took over the camp. You're uncle might not have personally shot any prisoners but he bears the collective guilt of failure to stop what you call the Holocaust.
That is just wrong. Thousands of inmates did indeed die after the liberation of the camps because there was no available medical technology to save them. This remains true to this day. Starve for long enough and there arrives a point of no return after which death is inevitable. The camp liberators did not kill them, there was simply no way to save them. This is something we see to this very day in famine struck regions. It's called triage.

Remember, the Holocaust isn't just the murder of the Jews. It's also the complete disregard for Jewish funeral practices by cremating human remains and burying the bodies of Jews alongside the bodies of gentiles. There are the pictures and movies of thousands of bodies of people you say were Jewish being unceremoniously pushed into mass graves with bulldozers. Those were made after liberation. That's the British who were desecrating human remains.
No intentional desecration is involved. It's simply a matter of practicality. Surely you can figure that out. Or perhaps not.

Because those non-Jews were not part of the Holocaust. The suffering and murder of non-Jews occurred parallel to the Holocaust. I'm not saying that gentile suffering wasn't real or that gentiles who were persecuted didn't feel pain. A Jew who is beaten to death because he is a member of a group that the Nazis have decided don't have a right to exist feels as much pain and is just as dead as a gentile who is beaten to death just because.
Your point is?

But the Jews were the only group of people who were intended to be exterminated down to the last man woman and child. This what makes the Holocaust unique.
Except that it isn't true.

The specific murder weapon is not what makes the Holocaust the Holocaust. The gas chamber was responsible for more Jewish deaths than any other method of execution but roughly half of the deaths weren't from gassing.
Somehow, the method of murder makes a difference?

I did not mean to imply that your Uncle had to see people who had been gassed to death. But you do know that none of the bodies he saw were those of people who has been killed in a gas chambers, don't you?
Wrong. There is a photographic record of it. And there were NO gas chambers at Bergen-Belsen, only copious death by other means.
 
That is just wrong. Thousands of inmates did indeed die after the liberation of the camps because there was no available medical technology to save them. This remains true to this day. Starve for long enough and there arrives a point of no return after which death is inevitable. The camp liberators did not kill them, there was simply no way to save them. This is something we see to this very day in famine struck regions. It's called triage..

So true, and a fact that many people just do not understand. You cannot just feed a person who has suffered from a long pariod of extreme starvation. It will kill them if you do

When medical staff tried to treat the victims after the liberation of Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, no-one had ever tried to treat such large numbers of emaciated and starving people. It was a new experience for those in the medical profession, so they did not at that time understand that such people were severely phosphate and potassium depleted. Phosphate is needed to make energy rich ATP that keeps our body functions working; not enough ATP for our energy needs e.g. digestion and we die. a sharp rise in potassium causes cardiac arrest in people who are suffering severe potassium deficiency, so this issue needs to be addressed first before giving them large amounts of energy like we instinctively would all like to do. As I said, this was not understood at the time.

So, large numbers of prisoners died after liberation, not because British Soldiers murdered them, but because medical science did not know how to treat them, and especially, they did not know to NOT feed them normal meals.

The mistakes made in treating the liberated prisoners at Bergen-Belsen and other Nazi concentration camps eventually lead to WHO Guidelines for the treatment of starved and emaciated people.

http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/guide_inpatient_text.pdf

* * * * *

In any case, pointless carrying on this discussion with Captain Howdy. You have entrenched views that are clearly and demonstrably wrong, as has been shown to you over and over in this thread by numerous posters. You are clearly a unique type of Holocaust Denier, one who denies that there were any victims of the Holocaust who were not Jewish. I guess that makes you anti-gentilic!

IMO, you are what Winston Churchill called a "fanatic", a person who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

We will have to agree to differ.
 
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Where did you pull your quote ("The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews and millions of others...")? The page I linked to is pretty clear that the Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews but that during the era of the Holocaust, other groups were also persecuted. It doesn't say that the Holocaust includes those other persecuted groups.

I linked to it in the first post of mine you replied to.
Here you go again:
USHMM
 
That specific number is apparently Wiesenthal's, but he did not "invent" the existence of non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims.html

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims-part-2.html

The actual number seems to be between just over 7 million, to about 1 and a half million, depending on the criteria one uses.

This is the problem. If there is no consensus definition of the Holocaust, then the word doesn't have any real meaning. If there's no definition of the Holocaust then how can we define what it is to be a victim of the Holocaust?

Extend the universalist definition of Holocaust victims out to it's logical conclusion: If almost half the victims of the Holocaust were not Jewish, what does it mean to be a survivor of the Holocaust? If the Jehovah's witness, or the disabled, or LGBT, or an Esperanto speaker are among the 5 million non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust, are all the Jehovah's witnesses who either endured or escaped from a region of Europe that was under the control of Nazi Germany or its collaborators during the war considered a Holocaust survivor? Is a Dutch Esperanto speaker who avoided arrest by not speaking Esperanto in front of the Gestapo throughout the occupation considered a survivor?

If all these various groups of people are able to be classified as victims of the Holocaust just like the Jews were victims, wouldn't just about anybody who lived in Europe during the war be able to consider themselves a Holocaust survivor?

According to Pew, 73% of Jews say that remembering the Holocaust is an essential part of what it means to be Jewish to them. Only 19% consider observing Jewish law to be essential part of what it means to be Jewish. 68% of Jews say that a person doesn't need to believe in God to be Jewish. Clearly, the Holocaust is important to the Jewish community. If somebody insists that almost half the victims of the Holocaust were not Jewish, wouldn't that same person have to agree that it's a little self-centered for Jews to care so much about it?

And if something horrible happened to millions of people and only some of those people were Jews, why would a Jewish person or anybody at all think that it's anti-Semitic to deny it?

I don't believe in diluting the word into meaninglessness. Yad Vashem uses Holocaust and Shoah interchangeably. They define Shoah victims as persons who were subject to systematic anti-Jewish persecution by the Nazis or their accomplices during the years of Nazi regime, 1933-1945. Many non-Jews were also persecuted at the same time, but they are considered victims of Nazism, not as Shoah victims. This distinction originates from the Nazis’ unique ideology striving to annihilate the Jewish people in its entirety.

That captures how I feel.
 
It's perfectly understandable that Jews care about the holocaust. As you say, they were the biggest victims of it.

But the Romani also care about it, but from their own perspective. It's pretty natural.

As for what does it mean to be a survivor of the Holocaust? Well, let's go to the USHMM again:
The Museum honors as a survivor any person who was displaced, persecuted, and/or discriminated against by the racial, religious, ethnic, social, and/or political policies of the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945. In addition to former inmates of concentration camps and ghettos, this also includes refugees and people in hiding.

And in case you're wondering...that's a link up there before the quote.
 
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