The Turin Shroud: The Image of Edessa created in c. 300-400 AD?

[John Jones]

As indicated, John Jones, I personally set greater store by what's present, or might be present, rather than absent, especially if not previously detected. [...]

The presence of unavailable lysine (by the Carpenter lysine method, for example) could provide supporting evidence exactly as you desire.

 

[meccanoman]

The presence of unavailable lysine (by the Carpenter lysine method, for example) could provide supporting evidence exactly as you desire.

It depends on what you mean precisely by unavailable lysine. Do you mean lysine that's been stripped of the epsilon-amino group on its side chain only, or the entire side chain or the entire amino-acid. Does one have to go looking for the various deaminated fragments that remain (analytically tricky)?

Looks complicated to me, too complicated maybe. Forgive me if I focus on finding new intact chemical species, rather than various 'bits and pieces' that remain, which is not to question the likely involvement of lysine in the Maillard reactions that probably, not definitely, figure in the browning reaction.

The basic problem is that you're putting the cart before the horse - looking for evidence of a Maillard reaction involving a constituent of added protein (flour, Model 10) before having any real evidence that flour (and/or adjunct vegetable oil) was used. Wouldn't it make more sense to go looking for more quantitatively significant markers of flour (and/or oil) that survive the proposed baking/washing procedure, than try to detect the minute left-overs from Maillard reactions?

 

[John Jones]

It depends on what you mean precisely by unavailable lysine. Do you mean lysine that's been stripped of the epsilon-amino group on its side chain only, or the entire side chain or the entire amino-acid.

Yes. I'm referring to the epsilon-amino group on lysine.

Does one have to go looking for the various deaminated fragments that remain (analytically tricky)?

Looks complicated to me, too complicated maybe. Forgive me if I focus on finding new intact chemical species, rather than various 'bits and pieces' that remain, which is not to question the likely involvement of lysine in the Maillard reactions that probably, not definitely, figure in the browning reaction.

The basic problem is that you're putting the cart before the horse - looking for evidence of a Maillard reaction involving a constituent of added protein (flour, Model 10) before having any real evidence that flour (and/or adjunct vegetable oil) was used. Wouldn't it make more sense to go looking for more quantitatively significant markers of flour (and/or oil) that survive the proposed baking/washing procedure, than try to detect the minute left-overs from Maillard reactions?

I'm not putting any cart before any horse. You originally proposed a Maillard reaction. I proposed a possible falsification of your Model 10 hypothesis. Take it or leave it.

Your hypothesis is elegant and interesting, but it's going to have to stand up to rigorous scrutiny. I'm thinking of ways I could test it myself.

Defensiveness will get you nowhere.

Cheers.

 

[abaddon]

As indicated, John Jones, I personally set greater store by what's present, or might be present, rather than absent, especially if not previously detected. I now have substance X in mind (hint: -(CH₂)_n - predicted by my Model 10, with tiny hints that X may be there from some recent papers reviewing Rogers' mass spectometry, notably the critique by Bella and counter-critique from Latendresse.

It's a horrendously complex subject, and may take a few days to get my head round.

Thanks again for your interest.

You are claiming that the origin of the shroud is tantamount to baking a cake. You think this is in any way reasonable, relevant or even interesting?

 

[meccanoman]

You are claiming that the origin of the shroud is tantamount to baking a cake. You think this is in any way reasonable, relevant or even interesting?

Reasonable? Most certainly!
Relevant? Most certainly!
Interesting? That depends on whether or not the recipient of the idea has a grasp for detail, like appreciating the shortcomings of your somewhat crude "cake" analogy.

You see, it's not just 1 cake but thousands of potential microcakes, i.e. oil-accompanied flour particles that are pressed onto the wet linen to create the Stage 1 imprint.

In the oven, there's a micro-frying of each of those flour particles, with an exudation of a yellow or brown LIQUID cocktail of Maillard reaction products. The latter get into the microscopic air-filled channels between the linen fibres and then rapidly shoot along a short distance by capillary action (for which I did a modelling with blue ink for YouTube - look for "dynamic penetration of ink" in your search engine). It's the polymerisation to high molecular weight melanoidins on that short journey, with an abrupt end to that journey when the supply of cocktail from the melt runs out that might account for the otherwise unexplained "half-tone effect" and "discontinuities" of the Shroud body image (just one of a number of features that pro-authenticity advocates claim could never be replicated by human hands, then proceeding to invoke a supernatural via miraculous flashes of radiation etc etc).

Subtlety, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. There can be all kinds of complexity at the atomic and molecular level that occur spontaneously whether energy is supplied or not that can generate what folk call "enigmas" seen through the unaided human eye at the macro level.

Maybe there's a lot more to wheat flour than you imagined. It did after all evolve as total nutrition to sustain the early growth of a new independent plant from germinating wheat grain. Don't be too quick to knock plain white flour. It's a chemical and biochemical cornucopia, good enough I might add to have been regarded as an acceptable alternative to livestock as burnt offering on the altar to God in the Old Testament (see Leviticus Chapter 6).

In fact that single chapter alone mentions (a) fine flour (b) olive oil (c) fire and (d) white linen... Hmmm. Might that be where the technologically-inclined canons of Lirey got their initial inspiration for white-flour imprinting, correction, micro-cake baking?

 

[hugh farey]

You are claiming that the origin of the shroud is tantamount to baking a cake. You think this is in any way reasonable, relevant or even interesting?

How the image on the Shroud was achieved, why it was carried out in that particular way, what the finished object was used for, and where it was done are the most interesting questions pertaining to it, so I give meccanoman's work 10/10 for interest and 10/10 for relevant. If I only give him 7/10 for reasonable, that is only because I also follow various other possibilities which might give a similar result from an easier procedure.

 

[Pixel42]

How and why the image was produced is certainly intriguing, but I would venture to suggest that most peoples' interest in the object is due to the possibility of its being genuine. Having established that it isn't, the motivation to spend more than an idle hour speculating and experimenting to discover more is a bit of a puzzle to me. It's not like there's any real possibility of establishing either the how or the why with any certainty, unless someone invents a time machine. Though I suppose there are worse hobbies.

 

[meccanoman]

How the image on the Shroud was achieved, why it was carried out in that particular way, what the finished object was used for, and where it was done are the most interesting questions pertaining to it, so I give meccanoman's work 10/10 for interest and 10/10 for relevant. If I only give him 7/10 for reasonable, that is only because I also follow various other possibilities which might give a similar result from an easier procedure.

I can't and won't complain at your scoring, Hugh, it being most generous. But how do those other models rate in the box-ticking stakes? Do they:

(a) produce an image, as distinct, say, from Di Lazzaro's brown discolration of linen, with no attempt to produce an image? Mine does.

2. Is the image superficial - or at any rate, as superficial or less so as one wishes. Mine does - or can be.

3. Is the image on one side of the linen only (as would not be the case with a soluble wet imprinting medium,e.g. a soluble dye, maybe even a fine particulate medium?). Mine is, or can be, depending on various technical factors that can be discussed if deemed desirable or necessary.

4. Is the image a tone-reversed, photograph-resembling negative, while not a genuine photograph (Stephen Jones please note) ? Mine is.

5. Does the image respond to 3D-rendering software, notably ImageJ? Mine does. Indeed, any imprint behaves in that manner, not requiring "encoded 3D properties" as I began to realize, as early as Model 2 (use of hot metal templates). (Sindonology has not caught up on that fact of life yet).

6. Can the peculiar microscopic properties at the individual fibre level (half-tone effect. discontinuities etc) be explained? Yes, they can in my model.

I wish my model looked more refined and sophisticated, e.g. requiring a precocious Leonardo Da Vinci born at least 120 years before the history books state, dabbling in proto-photography at age 20, say. But it doesn't, and its major flaw right now seems to be that it may have used, shock horror, nothing more sophisticated than plain white flour and oil, as existed in the larders of medieval kitchens. I must apologize profusely but not quite unreservedly for lowering the tone of the ongoing Shroud controversy by resorting to the humble ground- up wheat grain for inspiration.

Time now to get my head round those mass spec' fragments, starting with m/e 131, allegedly hydroxyproline (?) and then seeking out those multiples of 14 in sequences that were mentioned yesterday. Hugh will know what I'm talking about. Hugh always knows what I'm talking about. Shame there aren't more Hughs in sindonology!

 

[meccanoman]

How and why the image was produced is certainly intriguing, but I would venture to suggest that most peoples' interest in the object is due to the possibility of its being genuine. Having established that it isn't, the motivation to spend more than an idle hour speculating and experimenting to discover more is a bit of a puzzle to me. It's not like there's any real possibility of establishing either the how or the why with any certainty, unless someone invents a time machine. Though I suppose there are worse hobbies.

Fair point, pixel. But when did you last read a newspaper article, headlining the latest mind-blowing model from authenticity-promoting sindonology - generally involving a sudden flash of radiation from an otherwise dead body - that didn't start by stating that the Shroud has defied all attempts by modern science to explain the 'enigmatic' photograph-like image?

Is the agenda simply to promote the Christian narrative, which in terms of ethics has much to commend it, and is indeed the foundation of Western civilization, at least historically? Or is it an opportunity to take a swipe at science (the sceptical, perceived-as-godless variety that is) at the same time?

I'd say it looks, by and large, like a 50/50 mix of those two, though I'm always ready to be persuaded otherwise.

 

[meccanoman]

PS: Here's a comment I've just spotted elsewhere, on a site called learning-mind.com,

which has a feature entitled: 5 greatest unsolved enigmas of humanity

Annette June 26, 2015

Why does everyone get so rabid about the Shroud? This article was a list of enigmas…mysterious things….and I would say the Shroud fits. There are certainly a lot of unanswered questions about it, even if it was made 1200 years AD. Someone perpetuated a damn good hoax that still gets people arguing. I’d like to know who did it, how, why, etc. Wouldn’t you?
Hear hear Annette!

 

[meccanoman]

Good morning playmates

I have just discovered an amazing photoediting filter on Windows 10. It's called "Zeke". What's special about it?
I'll tell you what. It hugely accentuates any particulate matter on one's image.
Here's just one example of what it can do, comparing a before v after Zeke on a Shroud Scope Durante 2002 image of the face.


The before image (top) has already had some added contrast to reveal particulate matter, but isn't a patch on Zeke (bottom).

I think Zeke could have huge implications, especially for the poorly supported claim that the Shroud image is super-superficial. What if was an initially thick image that has subsequently degraded, partially but NOT completely, as is clearly the case for the bloodstains as well? Yup, Zeke could assist with interpretation of BLOOD as well as BODY IMAGE!

 

[meccanoman]

In the light of the above "Zeke" image, I'm now able to make a welcome simplification to my 3 step model (flour imprinting/oven roasting/ final soap and water wash). Forget about the last step. The initial thick encrustation of Maillard browning products was NOT washed off. It degraded naturally over a few decades! One now has a simpler TWO-STEP model!

So what was displayed initially at Lirey circa 1357? Answer: the initial heavily-encrusted image that one sees straight from the oven. It may have been further plumped up on display days by wetting to create an eye-catching bas relief. That would account for the otherwise bizarre decision to show a plumped-up bas relief on the Lirey pilgrim's badge, presently in the Cluny Museum, Paris:

Recall however that shortly after the first displays, the Avignon Pope Clement banned further displays for some 30 years. That was probably plenty of time for most but importantly NOT ALL (thanks Zeke) the encrustation to fall off naturally, maybe aided with light brushing etc.

I'm hugely relieved to be able to leave off that final wash, since it created complications for the blood imprints, which also show self-evident signs of natural degradation/ partial flaking off through age, wear and tear, rather than as a result of something so cumbersome and potentially-damaging as washing.

Test of the hypothesis? If the particulate flecks are Maillard reaction products, as distinct from inorganic artists' pigments (red ochre, Fe₂O₃, etc) they should be bleachable, either with Adler/Heller's diimide reagent, NH=NH, or even the ordinary domestic bleach (sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl) that works on my model roasted flour imprints.

 

[meccanoman]

That new Zeke filter almost certainly reveals the 'pre-particulate' nature of the allegedly oh-so-superficial Shroud image (non-fakeable on that basis alone, or so we're assured!). It's my guess that the first formed encrustation of Maillard reaction products from heated flour and oil leaks a cocktail of reaction products into the fibres of the linen, responsible for the final faint and 'ghostly' stain, one that can survive washing (or prolonged storage) long after most but not all the encrustation has fallen off.

I use an international site to announce this surely significant finding to the world. Result? A deathly silence!

Oh dear. But then I never was a good judge where the media or indeed internet matters are concerned. Best to stick with the plodding ol' science, maybe?

Incidentally, I've tried to figure out what Zeke did to show up those particles. Its effect on an additive RGB colour-mixing chart is exceedingly subtle, adding just a pale grey, merely dulling the Red, Green and Blue ("RGB"). So I'm really none the wiser.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Oh come on. It looks that way because it is a small bas relief, not because the shroud had puffed uo crusts of bread hanging from it.

 

[MikeG]

I........That would account for the otherwise bizarre decision to show a plumped-up bas relief on the Lirey pilgrim's badge, presently in the Cluny Museum, Paris:

[qimg]https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/lirey-badge.png[/qimg]........

You know that image is displayed on its side? It should be rotated 90 degrees anti-clockwise. I'll leave others to suggest whether that has any significance.

 

[MikeG]

Good morning playmates

I have just discovered an amazing photoediting filter on Windows 10. It's called "Zeke". What's special about it?
I'll tell you what. It hugely accentuates any particulate matter on one's image...........

There are squillions of such filters in Photoshop. They can make pretty much anything look like anything you want. I wouldn't take the blindest bit of notice of the artifacts produced by a cheap (free) image manipulation programme. If you think you can justify this, send me an image of the shroud and tell me what you want it to show, and I'll send it back showing just exactly that. You want it to look like an impressionist painting, perhaps, or a black and white pencil sketch? Maybe you want it to look like it was done with charcoal. All do-able in seconds.

 

[meccanoman]

Oh come on. It looks that way because it is a small bas relief, not because the shroud had puffed uo crusts of bread hanging from it.

Er, hold on minute. The Lirey badge is made of lead/tin alloy. As such, it's been made by metal casting, i.e. pouring molten metal into a cast.

If all we had was the end-product, we'd have to guess at the nature of the cast, except to say it was heat-resistant. But we have the recent discovery of the Machy mould for another "Lirey badge" discovered by a jogger in a field of a neighbouring village. The cast for that is a soft stone ("soap stone" as I recall) that is easily engraved, and less-easily-hollowed out to form a mould for a bas relief.

There's sadly no 'Man on the Shroud' image on that mould, defaced in the key region, but there is an engraved Veronica-like image of Jesus in the margin, above the word "SUAIRE", i.e. meaning SHROUD, together with the same de Charny/de Vergy coats of arms as per Cluny Museum Lirey badge. So why go to the trouble of hollowing out stone and smoothing off those recessed cavities for the Cluny badge, merely to make a bas relief appearance for the cast metal, arguably an unattractive way of portraying the image on the Shroud, especially one supposed to represent the crucified Jesus?

I'm suggesting, based on my model studies, that the Stage 1 imprint, straight from the oven, was discovered to respond magnificently to wetting, plumping up to make a bas relief: the medieval fabricators could not resist the temptation to make that plumping up part of the show, giving it added impact.

Sure I could be wrong, but what alternative explanation can you or others provide for going to all the trouble of making the badge a bas relief metal moulding, given all the extra hollowing-out work needed, over and above a simple scratched engraving to match the Shroud body image (correction, present day Shroud image, a 'shadow' maybe of its former self) ?

I agree, it's a long shot hypothesis, but where are the easy, short shot explanations for that unsightly bas relief we seen on the Cluny badge...?

 

[meccanoman]

You know that image is displayed on its side? It should be rotated 90 degrees anti-clockwise. I'll leave others to suggest whether that has any significance.

"Displayed on its side"? How do you figure that? It's an exact representation of the configuration on the Turin Shroud, with head-to-head conjunction of both frontal v dorsal views of the same subject, with no sides visible. The fabricator of the badge has even gone to the trouble of engraving the herringbone weave!
Maybe I've missed the point you were making. If so, please clarify.

 

[MikeG]

That image as shown in your post is rotated 90 degrees from how it would have been viewed in real life.

 

[MikeG]

Here you go:

The Doric columns on the flanks are now vertical, as they should be, and the heraldic shields are no longer lying on their sides. The cross in the middle now makes sense as well.