luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
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Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship
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I'd also be concerned that we'd see a drop in female participation in sports altogether. Since the physical, social and psychological benefits of athletic activity are not exclusive to the top performers, I think it's best to have an environment where lots of kids want to participate even if very few win.
applecorped
Banned
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Really?
Belz...
Fiend God
In competitive sports at least, absolutely. If you can't win at all, why bother?
Belz...
Fiend God
Because even for the same weight, men have a lot of extra muscle strength. About 50%, if I'm not mistaken.
I can't believe you didn't know this already.
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
So you don't have an answer then? Why would a male athlete in the same weight/skill class have an advantage over a female athlete? Are you able to answer that question?
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Are you talking about athletes in general, population in general, or athletes trained to the same standard, and what reference are you using to base this assertion on?
Belz...
Fiend God
All of the above. Men are just a lot physically stronger than women. They're also faster and have greater pain tolerance and healing capacity. Testosterone is a big factor there.
luchog, please. It's a well-established scientific fact and no amount of ideology will make it go away. There's nothing controversial about what I said.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_human_physiology
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Nope, you're still speaking in broad generalities. Nothing in there about equivalent weight, skill, and training. It's possible you're right, but so far you've provided nothing but broad assumptions to back up your assertions.
P.J. Denyer
Penultimate Amazing
quadraginta:
I was going to reply to the first of your posts, then the first two, then three...
Just take my agreement on this subject as read.
I feel really sorry for this kid, he wanted to play fair even if he lost and instead is being pushed into the situation of competing with an unfair advantage he has specifically asked not to have and is being reviled for it. Let's face it, public approbation, just what the poor lad needs, it's not like he's going to get that anywhere else.
Hopefully his standing up like this will make a difference for others.
I was going to reply to the first of your posts, then the first two, then three...
Just take my agreement on this subject as read.
I feel really sorry for this kid, he wanted to play fair even if he lost and instead is being pushed into the situation of competing with an unfair advantage he has specifically asked not to have and is being reviled for it. Let's face it, public approbation, just what the poor lad needs, it's not like he's going to get that anywhere else.
Hopefully his standing up like this will make a difference for others.
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
That's rather a broad brush. Teens who have already gone through puberty before they begin any HRT? Yeah. Maybe.
But in that case they would fall pretty clearly into the adult category.
Teens who were fortunate enough to be able to delay puberty until they could begin HRT? Not so much. Their physiology is going to be more line with their target gender as far as any advantages of male physique are concerned..
When a child expresses clear gender dysphoria from an early age, and even careful medical review and psychological counseling support the diagnosis then not making some accommodations for that child would be child abuse.
There are no medical procedures being performed on them. Nothing irreversible.
The psychological pain and abuse they are subjected to by trying to force them into a gender role that they cannot identify with definitely amounts to child abuse.
Much has been made by people who can't accept the very concept of gender dysphoria about the incredibly high rate of suicides among the transgendered, especially the young ones.
What they don't want to bring up is that the rate is high among the untreated, and that treatment brings that incidence down to a much more normal range.
Forcing kids to conform to a gender identity they cannot accept ... THAT is child abuse.
PhantomWolf
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You need to actually read the thread, it was explained, in detail. Kids that identify as trans-gender these days will be put on medication that prevents puberty occurring. Thus they haven't actually gone through it by the time they get to 15-16 and can make the choice on if to transition or not. If they decide to transition, they go from the puberty stopping medication to hormone theory that will force puberty to transition their body to the target gender. If they decide not too, they stop the medication and normal puberty takes over.
Gender change is reversible too (especially pre-lower half surgery.)
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He is right. These two pages should give you an idea about what he is talking about:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_100_metres_world_record_progression
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_100_metres_world_record_progression
Im sure you will find similar results comparing men's and women's world records in all kinds of other competitions. Unless you believe women are holding back on training.
Belz...
Fiend God
Because it's generally true, and there are only a few exceptions. If you want to see how men do with equal training to women, check out Olympic games records for both in the same events and compare them.
That is, unless you don't want your ideology challenged.
Belz...
Fiend God
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
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http://www.news-medical.net/health/Diagnosis-of-Gender-Dysphoria.aspx
You could have taken 5 seconds to Google it.
Belz...
Fiend God
Google the thread? I told you that I've gotten contradictory information from various posters and you asked me to read the thread, and then went on about things that had nothing to do with what I asked. And now you tell me to google it. Seems like you just want to disagree with me.
Belz...
Fiend God
The problem with luchog's line of argument is that on one side we'll be told that men have oppressed women for millennia because of their strength advantage, and on the other they'll also question the very idea of sexual dimorphism in humans.
It's a clear sign that ideology is at play here, and there's little that evidence can do against this. I mean, the physiological and psychological differences between men and women have been known and noted for thousands of years all around the world, but somehow now some people think that it's just a socially-constructed belief system.
I guess they think that women and men being equal in society should mean that they are, in fact, the same, when they clearly are not.
You think male spiders have the same sort of discussion? "Oh, we can be just as big and strong as the females. Their size advantage is just a socially-constructed myth!"
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PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
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The question I am assuming you were meaning since you quoted me was about children and teenagers transitioning and puberty.
Googling would have netted you this result which discusses a paper on the health and ethical issues associated with doing this, the end results are pretty clear.
The importance of preventing development of secondary sex characteristics during this period cannot be overstated. Once these children, who are already experiencing considerable distress over their gender incongruence, undergo the pubertal development of the “wrong” sex, their psychological well-being deteriorates significantly, and many develop depression and suicidal ideation. They can experience alienation and harassment at school if they are unable to participate in cross-gender activities or use cross-sex restrooms. They can be bullied and abused. Such circumstances can lead these youths to drop out of school and develop significant psychiatric morbidity. Because these risks can be so great, the need for medical and psychological intervention is paramount. Suppressing puberty and allowing children the opportunity to explore their true gender identities decreases their risk for suicide.
A child who decides to change his or her sex then starts cross-sex hormones. Because puberty was arrested before development of secondary sex characteristics, the child will achieve a “more normal and satisfactory appearance” after the transition than if he or she had waited until adulthood, in which case many irreversible features (e.g., height) or solely surgically reversible features (e.g., breast and genital development) would have formed. Giordano also believes children who have been treated before puberty have better psychosocial outcomes, such as greater comfort with their physical selves, better social adjustment, and fewer psychiatric complications. Should they decide not to change sex, “puberty suppressant drugs can be withheld and development restarts as normal”.
.....
Giordano concludes that “if allowing puberty to progress appears likely to harm the child, puberty should be suspended” [14]. It would be unethical to allow a patient to suffer through the distress of pubertal development when we have a way of preventing the distress it causes. Children and adolescents who suffer from gender identity disorder face significant physical, psychological, and social challenges, and receiving an inconsistent standard of medical care adds to those challenges.
Belz...
Fiend God
No, I meant exactly what I wrote: some people say we're talking about teenagers, others that we're talking about young children. When the latter was said, I responded to that, and then was told the former. So which is it? It's hard to have a discussion if we can't even agree on what the discussion is about.