Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[quadraginta]

What are you talking about?

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/201...s-texas-girls-wrestling-title.-supposed-mean/

I'm 99% sure redstate.com does not think gender identity treatment should be a decision between doctors and patients.

Also, the article you cite makes no reference at all to a doctor and patient deciding on a course of HRT and who else should be involved in that choice.

Your beef and theirs seems to be with the officials who made the decision about where Beggs should compete.

Neither the patient nor the doctor were responsible for this decision, and in this case the patient himself was against the choice that was made by those officials.

You're aiming at the wrong target, dude.

 

[BobTheCoward]

There. See? You can express yourself coherently. It just takes you a few tries.

Why is redstate.com (whoever they are) some sort of an authority on the subject? Do they have any qualifications which would justify their opinion overriding the advice of a doctor and the choices of the patient?

Are they the "plenty of people" you mentioned? Why is their opinion on this meaningful? Why should it carry any weight at all as far as a decision between a doctor and their patient is concerned?

I never said their opinion was meaningful. You should ignore them. I do.im just pointing out they exist.

 

[marplots]

The critical issue here is not who xe wrestles, but where xe pees.

 

[jeffas69]

Yes. But, its a coin toss for the doctor and parents and doesn't *make* the person male or female. Why should the high-school age kid have to abide by that arbitrary decision made for them in their infancy?

I didn't say they should. But giving them a starting point one way or another would give them eligibility to play sports. So your 2 percent figure would be significantly lower.

 

[Meadmaker]

Texas splits girls and boys for wrestling? What a strange way to go about it, most places match everyone who weigh the same, which pits boys against girls all the time.

Most places?

I am open to being educated, but it would surprise me if you were correct.

I would guess that "most places" in the USA do not have a girls' wrestling program, so the very small number of girls who wish to wrestle do so in the boys' division under boys' rules, because Title IX says it's required.

 

[Meadmaker]

And the 2% of the population that is intersex at birth should go just hide in the library?

Echoing another poster, I don't think the number is anywhere close to 2%. And, actually, to comment on what you said later, I really do think it's a pretty insignificant number, from a statistical perspective. If you happen to be one of the....0.1%? then it's pretty significant.


There is no way that a situation like this can be resolved in any way that could be considered "fair". Either she competes against boys, and probably gets destroyed, and also creates certain other social issues that are related to fairness, or she competes against girls, and defeats them all as a consequence of medical enhancement, or she is excluded entirely, through no fault of her own. I don't see any "fair" way to resolve the situation.

 

[marplots]

Echoing another poster, I don't think the number is anywhere close to 2%. And, actually, to comment on what you said later, I really do think it's a pretty insignificant number, from a statistical perspective. If you happen to be one of the....0.1%? then it's pretty significant.


There is no way that a situation like this can be resolved in any way that could be considered "fair". Either she competes against boys, and probably gets destroyed, and also creates certain other social issues that are related to fairness, or she competes against girls, and defeats them all as a consequence of medical enhancement, or she is excluded entirely, through no fault of her own. I don't see any "fair" way to resolve the situation.

Xe could compete against midgets. Either sex.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm 99% sure redstate.com does not think gender identity treatment should be a decision between doctors and patients.

Yeah well I could say something about people that think they have a right to put their nose into medical decisions concerning other people's bodies but my mother told me that if I couldn't be polite not to say anything at all. I am sure they would all be thrilled if strangers were allowed to decide what medical procedures they were allowed to have and not have, or even better forced to have.

 

[PhantomWolf]

The critical issue here is not who xe wrestles, but where xe pees.

since he identifies as a "he", "he" is the correct term for him.

But you do raise a valid point. Since he is required to wrestle in the girls' league is he also required to use the girls' locker room and showers?

 

[PhantomWolf]

I never said their opinion was meaningful. You should ignore them. I do.im just pointing out they exist.

Serious, if you don't think that it is meaningful, then why bring it up at all?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Serious, if you don't think that it is meaningful, then why bring it up at all?

I was responding to your comment about doctors and patients. I am pointing out that it is based on assumptions that not everyone shares. I think I even said that in my first post.

 

[Belz...]

And the 2% of the population that is intersex at birth should go just hide in the library?

I'm just going to throw this in, but not everyone can do what they want in life. Sometimes there just isn't a solution.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I'm just going to throw this in, but not everyone can do what they want in life. Sometimes there just isn't a solution.

This is why I say get the government out of education and health care. Then the collective "we" don't have to provide solutions. People can decide on their own solutions for themselves.

 

[madurobob]

There is no way that a situation like this can be resolved in any way that could be considered "fair". Either she competes against boys, and probably gets destroyed, and also creates certain other social issues that are related to fairness, or she competes against girls, and defeats them all as a consequence of medical enhancement, or she is excluded entirely, through no fault of her own. I don't see any "fair" way to resolve the situation.

He is going through puberty as a male; developing the greater bone density and muscle mass that males do in puberty. He identifies as male and wanted to wrestle in the boy's league.

All things considered, to me the only "fair" way to resolve this would have been to have him wrestle in the boy's league (questions of steroid use aside for the moment).

 

[Darat]

Echoing another poster, I don't think the number is anywhere close to 2%. And, actually, to comment on what you said later, I really do think it's a pretty insignificant number, from a statistical perspective. If you happen to be one of the....0.1%? then it's pretty significant.


There is no way that a situation like this can be resolved in any way that could be considered "fair". Either she competes against boys, and probably gets destroyed, and also creates certain other social issues that are related to fairness, or she competes against girls, and defeats them all as a consequence of medical enhancement, or she is excluded entirely, through no fault of her own. I don't see any "fair" way to resolve the situation.

I'm just going to throw this in, but not everyone can do what they want in life. Sometimes there just isn't a solution.

I think these sum up my opinion.

This is after all something voluntary - the sports - and sports organisations will set their own rules. If for example "steroids" are not allowed than someone one requiring steroids even for a perfectly legitimate medical reasons simply won't be able to compete.

I have inherited genetic issues i.e. autoimmune diseases that mean I require certain drugs to be able to function "normally" however some of those drugs have contraindications that would preclude me for example from being a commercial airline pilot. I'm taking these drugs for medical reasons, I do not abuse these drugs but it does mean that I have to accept some things are closed from me because of the medical treatments I require.

I strongly believe that when we can we should do what we can to enable everyone to participate in society to whatever degree they want. But there will be times when we will not for anything we should feel guilty about or consider to be a bad reflection on ourselves be unable to participate in society to the degree we would want.

 

[madurobob]

I'm just going to throw this in, but not everyone can do what they want in life. Sometimes there just isn't a solution.

Didn't say that was the case. But, if a kid has the skills to make the team, its wrong to deny that kid the opportunity to compete simply because a doctor wrongly decided "yep, we're making this one female" when that kid was an infant.

 

[Belz...]

This is why I say get the government out of education and health care. Then the collective "we" don't have to provide solutions. People can decide on their own solutions for themselves.

That has literally nothing to do with either what I said, or the thread topic.

Didn't say that was the case. But, if a kid has the skills to make the team, its wrong to deny that kid the opportunity to compete simply because a doctor wrongly decided "yep, we're making this one female" when that kid was an infant.

I'd like to answer this but it's hard when you claim that the doctor's the one who made the kid female. Aside from a "switch" in the genes, there was no way to know that the kid wasn't female.

My issue with trans people in relation to the male-female segregation in sports is that allowing a trans male in a male team is one thing, but if you allow this, you allow a trans female in a female team as well, and in that latter case, not only will most be able to make the team, but they'll be stronger and faster than the cis women there, knocking them out of the field. And if we stop segregating women and men altogether we have the same problem.

So, shall we be unfair to 0.3% of the population, or 99.7%? That was the point of my post: not everybody can walk on the moon even if they really, really want to.

 

[BobTheCoward]

That has literally nothing to do with either what I said, or the thread topic.

Yes, it does. You say there isn't a solution. That is only true because we have government schools and health regulations that carry the force of law and tie everyone's hands. In the absence of those, the parties involved can arrive at a solution.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, it does. You say there isn't a solution. That is only true because we have government schools and health regulations that carry the force of law and tie everyone's hands. In the absence of those, the parties involved can arrive at a solution.

What a load of nonsense. It has nothing to do with any of that. Your constant babbling about this ideology of yours is getting tiresome.

There isn't a solution because nobody can think of one. Can you think of one?

 

[BobTheCoward]

What a load of nonsense. It has nothing to do with any of that. Your constant babbling about this ideology of yours is getting tiresome.

There isn't a solution because nobody can think of one. Can you think of one?

Yes. Scrap the Texas law, any other laws dealing with public education, and any laws regulating how the medical profession can treat transgender issues. Then let the private parties negotiate an agreement.