Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[quadraginta]

Wow! Reasoned discourse?

Pretty much.

I was responding to a post which clearly suggested that the simple act of using a hormone supplement was enough to confer an unfair advantage.

It isn't. Many other factors are involved.

 

[jeffas69]

The specific range of "normal"?

Yes. All normal biological boys would fall within the normal range.

The ones that don't are not normal.

That's what might be called a truism.

For reference purposes that range for testosterone is considered to be 225–900 ng/dL.

Also;

​

Thus, it is not clear what advantage is gained for transmales if their testosterone levels are not being "enhanced" beyond the range normal for a biological male.

It seems to me that the various effects of different levels of hormone supplement are being conflated.

Supplements to normal male levels cannot properly be considered an enhancement in the same sense that athletes augmenting their own normal levels by many times is.

Do you think that biological boys whose hormone levels exceed the normal range without taking any additional supplements should be excluded from competition because their performance is "enhanced"?

According to the National Institutes of Health, the normal range of testosterone is 30 to 95 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dL) for women and 300 to 1,200 ng/dL for men, but individual laboratories might have a slightly different range that they consider normal.

The NIH seems to have a different range but lets just use yours. The article does not specify what Mack's levels were at, just that they fell in your range. If a boy fell just below the range or at the very bottom of it would it be ok for them to take supplements that brought them up to the level that Mack was at? You state that the effects are "conflated" Do you have any evidence of that or is it possible that there is an advantage of having higher levels? It is my opinion then that no one should be allowed to compete if they are using any drugs for enhancement of any kind. And again IMHO it is the most simple solution.

To your highlighted question: Of course not. They would be considered a gifted natural athlete even if a clear advantage was given. Also very simple.

 

[jeffas69]

At the end of all this bickering you and I are going to agree that the sanctioning body got it wrong. We will of course differ on the proper solution. I am contending that if you allow any "juicing" of any kind then you will open up an argument that moderate juicing can be considered healthy for some young athletes. I will oppose this for athletics alone for what I would contend are obvious reasons. I will not oppose parents who want to allow their children to take drug therapy for transgender issues as long as they are aware that it will disqualify them from competitive sports at all levels. They can certainly encourage them to go to the library and focus on education.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Another problem solved by ending public education.

 

[Cain]

Another problem solved by ending public education.

The man who stops a leaky faucet by setting the house on fire. You -- outta my thread.

 

[BobTheCoward]

The man who stops a leaky faucet by setting the house on fire. You -- outta my thread.

You mean improve every aspect of the education system.

This situation here is why I'm a libertarian. I don't want any government to get in my way of sending my child Toa woke school.

I'm not going anywhere.

 

[madurobob]

Where did I say such a thing?

You said

biological males compete against males and biological girls compete against girls

So, where do the other 2% of the population (about the same as redheads?) compete?

 

[Strawberry]

You said
So, where do the other 2% of the population (about the same as redheads?) compete?

Against each other.

 

[madurobob]

At the end of all this bickering you and I are going to agree that the sanctioning body got it wrong. We will of course differ on the proper solution. I am contending that if you allow any "juicing" of any kind then you will open up an argument that moderate juicing can be considered healthy for some young athletes. I will oppose this for athletics alone for what I would contend are obvious reasons. I will not oppose parents who want to allow their children to take drug therapy for transgender issues as long as they are aware that it will disqualify them from competitive sports at all levels. They can certainly encourage them to go to the library and focus on education.

This more or less aligns with my viewpoint as well, tho I might limit it to contact sports, or perhaps non-direct competition sports (e.g; High Jump). For those sports I'd say work it out on a case-by-case basis. If a non-contact competitor is on hormone therapy for a recognized medical issue and is under the care of physician... that could be OK. But, commonly banned PEDs should be just that - banned - in kids contact sports.

That still, of course, leaves open the discussion of just how a school athletic administration determines who they recognize as "boy" and "girl" for their sports leagues. Biology is not binary here, so forcing it into a binary decision tree is a problem.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

An advantage then. Glad we agree!

Yes. AN advantage, of which there are many. Not an unparalleled advantage such that those not possessing it should focus on 'the library' instead.

As if physical build type necessarily means anything about cognitive abilities, anyways.

I was 6'0" through most of high school and in the 112-119-125 classes. Seriously, my forearms are thicker than my upper arms, if I suck in a full breath, you can count my ribs. Plenty of 'linebacker' type guys thought they'd be able to toss me around like a rag-doll, boy did they get surprised.

 

[theprestige]

Why not put Mack in the boys division, but in a weight class that would be comparable to his strength level?

That's what weight classes are.

 

[jeffas69]

You said
So, where do the other 2% of the population (about the same as redheads?) compete?

My apologies for missing your original context. This thread is about (Im assuming) a biologial girl who wants to be a boy.

I can only assume that the vast majority of the 2% have already been assigned a male or female classification in one way or another by the time they are in competetive school sports. My position is that those kids can and should be able to compete with their respective gender of choice sport as long as they are not receiving enhancements. If they have not or refuse to choose that is another matter. Do you know what the percentage is that is not assigned at birth or shortly after?

 

[BobTheCoward]

You said
So, where do the other 2% of the population (about the same as redheads?) compete?

They don't....Like the 99% are not able to either.

 

[Elagabalus]

Pretty much.

I was responding to a post which clearly suggested that the simple act of using a hormone supplement was enough to confer an unfair advantage.

It isn't. Many other factors are involved.

Yes, it is.

Women Cyclist Tammy Thomas also disagrees with you. Here she is in 2008.

 

[mgidm86]

You said
So, where do the other 2% of the population (about the same as redheads?) compete?

I think the 2% number is too high. "Intersex" can cover a wide range of conditions, many of which will not affect performance in sports.

How long has this kid been taking testosterone? Is it a good idea to start treatment at a young age?

The wrestler, a junior at Trinity High School in the Dallas suburb of Euless, had a 52-0 record ahead of the weekend tournament and was favored to win the 110-pound weight class in the championship.


On Saturday, he beat Chelsea Sanchez 12-2 to earn the championship.

Is the undefeated record from competing with girls while taking testosterone? Was she above average in strength to begin with?

I can't perform good sleight of hand with cards because my hands are a little too small. I'm too short for basketball, too slow for track. Thankfully, there are a gazillion other things I can do with my life.

 

[madurobob]

I can only assume that the vast majority of the 2% have already been assigned a male or female classification in one way or another by the time they are in competetive school sports.

Yes. But, its a coin toss for the doctor and parents and doesn't *make* the person male or female. Why should the high-school age kid have to abide by that arbitrary decision made for them in their infancy?

I think the 2% number is too high. "Intersex" can cover a wide range of conditions, many of which will not affect performance in sports.

Perhaps. But the point is that its not an insignificant number.

How long has this kid been taking testosterone? Is it a good idea to start treatment at a young age?

I assume that its timed to coincide with puberty, or at least the typical age puberty begins if the hormone therapy triggers puberty.

I can't perform good sleight of hand with cards because my hands are a little too small. I'm too short for basketball, too slow for track. Thankfully, there are a gazillion other things I can do with my life.

Different problem here. Big palms mean I have to buy XXL gloves just to get them on, but usually the fingers of XXL gloves are way too long for me. My coach in college said I had perfect boxer's hands - lots of mass, but no pesky fingers to get in the way and broken during sparring.

 

[PhantomWolf]

How long has this kid been taking testosterone? Is it a good idea to start treatment at a young age?

The best time to start is at puberty so that the body develops entirely towards that of the target gender. In most cases children that identify as Trans before puberty can be put on medication to stop it occurring until they can make a final decision at 15-16. The alternatives are not so pleasant with people having tried every from chain smoking to self mutilation to prevent the changes of puberty. The thing is that for Transgender children Puberty is a time of horror as their body literally starts to betray their brain, it can be highly traumatic. It also introduces things that are impossible to change later in life, so medically, the younger you can treat a trangender person, the better the end result and their transition to a full life will be.

 

[BobTheCoward]

The best time to start is at puberty so that the body develops entirely towards that of the target gender. In most cases children that identify as Trans before puberty can be put on medication to stop it occurring until they can make a final decision at 15-16. The alternatives are not so pleasant with people having tried every from chain smoking to self mutilation to prevent the changes of puberty. The thing is that for Transgender children Puberty is a time of horror as their body literally starts to betray their brain, it can be highly traumatic. It also introduces things that are impossible to change later in life, so medically, the younger you can treat a trangender person, the better the end result and their transition to a full life will be.

Puberty betrayed me by revealing I'm an awkward, unathletic, loser. Where was my testosterone?

I always hated when they give the differently abled person a free touchdown. You know who else isn't capable of scoring a touchdown? Most of us.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I'm also going to add something else in here that I often see used but is incorrect when it comes to teenage transgenders.

Because today we are able to identify transgenders earlier and they are often diagnosed prior to puberty, instead of undergoing a natural they undergo a medial one where their body's hormones are suppressed and they are given the target gender hormones instead.

Prior to puberty there are only a few differences between girls and boys structurally, most of the bone growth, muscle development, body shaping, hair growth, height, and such occurs after puberty begins. If a boy has his testosterone suppressed and is given Estrogen then his hips will widen, he will grow breasts and his voice will remain high. He will not gain body and facial hair, nor the dense muscle and skeleton that boys would. Basically other than his genitalia, his body physically becomes that of a woman's. Likewise is a girl has her estrogen suppressed and is given testosterone, her body undergoes puberty as a male and she become masculine with thicker bones, denser, muscles, wider shoulders and chin, facial and body hair, etc.

This is quite different than when an Adult undergoes transition, where while there are some changes to the body, ie fat deposits shift, muscle tone changes, facial hair is grown for transmen, breasts develop for transwomen, many things such as adam's apples, facial and body hair on transwomen as well as deeper voices. Also breasts for Transmen, these things can't be changed short of surgery.

Over all this is why it's better to detect and treat early than waiting until the person is an adult and has undergone irreparable changes.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Puberty betrayed me by revealing I'm an awkward, unathletic, loser. Where was my testosterone?

I always hated when they give the differently abled person a free touchdown. You know who else isn't capable of scoring a touchdown? Most of us.

When people start mutilating themselves and committing suicide because of their lack of ability to score a touchdown, come back to me, until then let me cry you a river.