Roided Up "Boy" Wins Girls' State Wrestling Championship

[quadraginta]

I imagine, even with steroids, he would've been crushed in the boys division.

Maybe so.

But it would have been his choice.

He's taking the heat because he was forced to compete in a class that he had an advantage in which he didn't want.

He wasn't looking for any advantage. He specifically wanted to be treated the same as other boys.

Okay. He competes with the other boys and gets crushed. Why is that anyone else's problem? He wouldn't be the first kid to get clobbered in wrestling. I believe most of them do. There's only so many who are at the top.

 

[jeffas69]

And the 2% of the population that is intersex at birth should go just hide in the library?

Where did I say such a thing? Mack could have competed as a girl had Mack not taken any drugs. Alternatively should any of the billions of young boys in this world who are a bit scrawny and would like to be identified as more manly be allowed to take drugs and compete in athletics or should they just go to the library and compete in a different way? Sporting competition is not for everyone and there is no reason we should think it is.

 

[quadraginta]

Where did I say such a thing? Mack could have competed as a girl without had Mack not taken any drugs. Alternatively should any of the billions of young boys in this world who are a bit scrawny and would like to be identified as more manly be allowed to take drugs and compete in athletics or should they just go to the library and compete in a different way? Sporting competition is not for everyone and there is no reason we should think it is.

You seem to be saying that you think Mack Begg's HRT would give him an unfair advantage against the biological boys.

Is that what you meant to say?

 

[jeffas69]

You seem to be saying that you think Mack Begg's HRT would give him an unfair advantage against the biological boys.

Is that what you meant to say?

It absolutely would have given an advantage over a very high percentage of biological boys that dont use any performance enhancing drugs. Would Mack have made the cut on the boys team without them? Unfair? That term does not belong in the discussion. Life is sometimes unfair.

 

[jeffas69]

And the 2% of the population that is intersex at birth should go just hide in the library?

What is wrong with kids going to the library?

 

[quadraginta]

It absolutely would have given an advantage over a very high percentage of biological boys that dont use any performance enhancing drugs. Would Mack have made the cut on the boys team without them? Unfair? That term does not belong in the discussion. Life is sometimes unfair.

Then why were so many people (including coaches) saying he shouldn't compete with the boys because he'd get clobbered?

If HRT brings his hormone levels up to, but not beyond, the normal range for a biological boy why should he be excluded? He wouldn't be "enhancing" his performance any more than the rest of them.

 

[Strawberry]

Then why were so many people (including coaches) saying he shouldn't compete with the boys because he'd get clobbered?

If HRT brings his hormone levels up to, but not beyond, the normal range for a biological boy why should he be excluded? He wouldn't be "enhancing" his performance any more than the rest of them.

I would dispute that. Males who need testosterone for other medical reasons aren't allowed to take it and compete - why is that if it gives an athlete no advantage? Only female to male transgendered athletes are exempt from that rule, which I would say makes the playing field uneven against the boys.

 

[quadraginta]

I would dispute that. Males who need testosterone for other medical reasons aren't allowed to take it and compete - why is that if it gives an athlete no advantage? Only female to male transgendered athletes are exempt from that rule, which I would say makes the playing field uneven against the boys.

I'm not sure what you are trying to establish with this.

I feel the same way about that example. If their medical treatment doesn't raise their hormone levels beyond what is within the normal range for biological boys then they shouldn't be treated differently on that basis.

Some biological boys naturally have higher hormone levels than others, and those levels vary over time.

Do you think they should all be checked periodically, and a threshold determined beyond which they shouldn't compete because their performance has been "enhanced"?

If not, then why not? "Enhanced" is "enhanced". It's the chemicals doing it, not the method of delivery.

 

[jeffas69]

Then why were so many people (including coaches) saying he shouldn't compete with the boys because he'd get clobbered?

I don't speak for them. I am saying that Mack should not have been allowed to compete at all because of the drugs.

If HRT brings his hormone levels up to, but not beyond, the normal range for a biological boy why should he be excluded? He wouldn't be "enhancing" his performance any more than the rest of them.

Are you saying that all boys have the same levels? Are you advocating that the restrictions on performance enhancements in sports be eliminated?

 

[Strawberry]

I'm not sure what you are trying to establish with this.

I feel the same way about that example. If their medical treatment doesn't raise their hormone levels beyond what is within the normal range for biological boys then they shouldn't be treated differently on that basis.

Some biological boys naturally have higher hormone levels than others, and those levels vary over time.

Do you think they should all be checked periodically, and a threshold determined beyond which they shouldn't compete because their performance has been "enhanced"?

If not, then why not? "Enhanced" is "enhanced". It's the chemicals doing it, not the method of delivery.

They are treated differently on that basis though, the only exemption is for transgendered athletes. Its a loophole that should be closed IMO, its only cheating athletes who have put in the work and the training to pit them against someone taking testosterone.

And given that a boy taking testosterone wouldn't even be allowed to compete against other boys, its downright ridiculous for someone taking testosterone to be in the girls league.

 

[quadraginta]

Are you saying that all boys have the same levels?

Please note use of word "range".

No. That isn't what I'm saying.

Are you advocating that the restrictions on performance enhancements in sports be eliminated?

Did I say something which would suggest that?

Nope. I didn't.

Please try and limit your responses to things I actually did say. Otherwise I will be forced to conclude that your responses are not in the interest of reasoned discourse.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Where did I say such a thing? Mack could have competed as a girl had Mack not taken any drugs. Alternatively should any of the billions of young boys in this world who are a bit scrawny and would like to be identified as more manly be allowed to take drugs and compete in athletics or should they just go to the library and compete in a different way? Sporting competition is not for everyone and there is no reason we should think it is.

There might be better analogies that fit. "A bit scrawny" is not actually an outright disadvantage in wrestling. Since there are weight classes, a 'scrawny' person facing off aginst a 'hefty' person in the same class probably has height and limb length advantages. It calls for a different strategic approach to dominating the opponent, that's all. If my arm is bent at the elbow while yours is straight out, I can do almost anything I want with it. If we're at a standard start and working towards an ankle grab, my long arms and body mean I can reach yours easier than you can reach mine.

So scrawny vs. hefty isn't an outright advantage to one, it's different kinds of advantages for each.

 

[jeffas69]

Please note use of word "range".

No. That isn't what I'm saying.

Did I say something which would suggest that?

Nope. I didn't.

Please try and limit your responses to things I actually did say. Otherwise I will be forced to conclude that your responses are not in the interest of reasoned discourse.

Fine. Do all boys fall in the that specific range?

 

[quadraginta]

They are treated differently on that basis though, the only exemption is for transgendered athletes. Its a loophole that should be closed IMO, its only cheating athletes who have put in the work and the training to pit them against someone taking testosterone.

You seem to think that testosterone is some sort of magical potion which instantly instills superpowers.

It isn't.

When a biological male whose physiology falls withing the normal range takes testosterone he is taking additional testosterone, boosting the levels beyond that which is within a normal range.

I see nothing unfair about someone who is using hormone therapy simply to reach the levels of a biologically normal boy getting to compete.

Because there is no advantage.

And given that a boy taking testosterone wouldn't even be allowed to compete against other boys, its downright ridiculous for someone taking testosterone to be in the girls league.

I don't disagree with that. Your argument is with the officials who refused to allow him to compete in the division all the experts said he would get clobbered in. Even though that's what he wanted.

 

[Strawberry]

You seem to think that testosterone is some sort of magical potion which instantly instills superpowers.

It isn't.

When a biological male whose physiology falls withing the normal range takes testosterone he is taking additional testosterone, boosting the levels beyond that which is within a normal range.

I see nothing unfair about someone who is using hormone therapy simply to reach the levels of a biologically normal boy getting to compete.

Because there is no advantage.

If a biological male was taking testosterone because his body wasn't producing the hormone in 'normal' amounts, ie, if he was taking it just to bring his testosterone levels up to within the normal range, he would be prohibited from competing while taking it.

Why is that if it gives no advantage?

 

[Cain]

Still not fair, because it's not about skill but about physics, apparently. A boy who has more muscle than another boy has an unfair advantage. A boy who has more testosterone has an advantage. A centimeter more in height, a gram more in weight...it's all unfair advantages. The only truly fair way to compete in sport would be to match up only those individuals who are exactly alike in every way, down to the molecular level. Because fairness!

This conflates advantages with unfair advantages. There's a difference between a football player who reports not being able to sleep the night before the Rose Bowl because of anxiety versus one who was woken at 3 am because someone from the opposing team pulled the hotel's fire alarm. Also, no single somatotype confers advantages in all sports. Basketball players tend to be tall, gymnasts tend to be short. Athletes can choose to compete in sports (or vie for positions) suited for their skill set and body type.

 

[jeffas69]

There might be better analogies that fit. "A bit scrawny" is not actually an outright disadvantage in wrestling. Since there are weight classes, a 'scrawny' person facing off aginst a 'hefty' person in the same class probably has height and limb length advantages. It calls for a different strategic approach to dominating the opponent, that's all. If my arm is bent at the elbow while yours is straight out, I can do almost anything I want with it. If we're at a standard start and working towards an ankle grab, my long arms and body mean I can reach yours easier than you can reach mine.

So scrawny vs. hefty isn't an outright advantage to one, it's different kinds of advantages for each.

An advantage then. Glad we agree!

 

[jeffas69]

Please try and limit your responses to things I actually did say.

You seem to think that testosterone is some sort of magical potion which instantly instills superpowers.

Wow! Reasoned discourse?

 

[quadraginta]

Fine. Do all boys fall in the that specific range?

The specific range of "normal"?

Yes. All normal biological boys would fall within the normal range.

The ones that don't are not normal.

That's what might be called a truism.

For reference purposes that range for testosterone is considered to be 225–900 ng/dL.

Also;

Israel et al. have suggested that for pre-oophorectomy trans men, therapeutic testosterone levels should optimally fall within the normal male range,

Thus, it is not clear what advantage is gained for transmales if their testosterone levels are not being "enhanced" beyond the range normal for a biological male.

It seems to me that the various effects of different levels of hormone supplement are being conflated.

Supplements to normal male levels cannot properly be considered an enhancement in the same sense that athletes augmenting their own normal levels by many times is.

Do you think that biological boys whose hormone levels exceed the normal range without taking any additional supplements should be excluded from competition because their performance is "enhanced"?

 

[quadraginta]

If a biological male was taking testosterone because his body wasn't producing the hormone in 'normal' amounts, ie, if he was taking it just to bring his testosterone levels up to within the normal range, he would be prohibited from competing while taking it.

Why is that if it gives no advantage?

Good question.

I'm the wrong person to ask. I see no problem with such an individual competing. Specifically because "it gives no advantage", as you say.