“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

[phiwum]

Now, now. He only encourages it against people he disagrees with. Not against himself.

Right. Fair enough. Because those people deserve it, and hence so do the public and private institutions whose property has been damaged. Because they were there, too!

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but free speech is good. Even very controversial speech at a public university. Milo is an *******, a waste of oxygen, but if some student organization invites him to speak, let him speak. Protest outside, if you wish, and educate others about who Milo is, but let him speak.

 

[SteveL]

So you just assume everyone who was injured or had property damaged was a Milo supporter?

Why? Please clarify this and my original question.

If you're not with us, you're against us!

 

[Mycroft]

They needed no vindication, and even if you think they did, they were vindicated before they even started by the preceding long sequence of such events showing that anti-fascist resistance works.

Curiously the "muh free speech" and "muh non-violence" liberal crowd always seems to forget that again immediately when a new such event occurs.

When you adopt the same tactics as the fascists then when you successfully oppose them you only succeed in replacing one evil with another.

You also legitimize violence as political discourse leaving the door open to violence from the fascists, which history shows to be a real danger.

 

[Belz...]

When you adopt the same tactics as the fascists then when you successfully oppose them you only succeed in replacing one evil with another.

You also legitimize violence as political discourse leaving the door open to violence from the fascists, which history shows to be a real danger.

But...but...but... my violence is justfied! Justified in order to stop their violence, which is not justified. See?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

They needed no vindication, and even if you think they did, they were vindicated before they even started by the preceding long sequence of such events showing that anti-fascist resistance works.

Curiously the "muh free speech" and "muh non-violence" liberal crowd always seems to forget that again immediately when a new such event occurs.

[Citation Needed]

 

[dudalb]

Conservatism is a big tent movement. There's always a risk of taking someone in who makes the rest look bad. It's the price you pay for diversity.

There has always been a divide in the Conservatism movement between the big tenters and those who value ideological purity. IMHO the ideologues seem to be winning at the moment.

 

[Mycroft]

There has always been a divide in the Conservatism movement between the big tenters and those who value ideological purity. IMHO the ideologues seem to be winning at the moment.

Doesn't seem very pure to me.

 

[tyr_13]

When you adopt the same tactics as the fascists then when you successfully oppose them you only succeed in replacing one evil with another.

You also legitimize violence as political discourse leaving the door open to violence from the fascists, which history shows to be a real danger.

Exactly this. Setting the level of discourse to 'violence' means violence will be returned and it will be viewed as legitimate.

 

[Mycroft]

Exactly this. Setting the level of discourse to 'violence' means violence will be returned and it will be viewed as legitimate.

And the difference between throwing a punch and setting off a bomb is just a matter of degree.

 

[theprestige]

They needed no vindication, and even if you think they did, they were vindicated before they even started by the preceding long sequence of such events showing that anti-fascist resistance works.

Huh.

Now I'm wondering, has anti-fascist resistance ever worked? I don't recall any significant resistance to the Mussolini regime in Italy. There was some resistance in Spain, but the Francisco regime ultimately prevailed.

Anti-fascist resistance in Germany in the 1930s was popular and well-organized, primarily by the communist parties, but their resistance was violently beaten down by the SA.

The French resistance fought the good fight, but was ultimately limited in their ability to effect change.

What history has shown to work against fascism is total industrial warfare on a grand scale.

 

[Belz...]

What history has shown to work against fascism is total industrial warfare on a grand scale.

Good. So now instead of punching them, all we need is a tank.

 

[Newtons Bit]

Good. So now instead of punching them, all we need is a tank.

I think he's referring to actual fascists, not just people that the totalitarian left disagrees with.

 

[Belz...]

I think he's referring to actual fascists, not just people that the totalitarian left disagrees with.

I know. The jab wasn't directed at Prestige.

 

[angrysoba]

Huh.

Now I'm wondering, has anti-fascist resistance ever worked? I don't recall any significant resistance to the Mussolini regime in Italy. There was some resistance in Spain, but the Francisco regime ultimately prevailed.

Anti-fascist resistance in Germany in the 1930s was popular and well-organized, primarily by the communist parties, but their resistance was violently beaten down by the SA.

The French resistance fought the good fight, but was ultimately limited in their ability to effect change.

What history has shown to work against fascism is total industrial warfare on a grand scale.

A popular example that is sometimes cited is the Battle of Cable Street in which Oswald Mosley's blackshirts were thwarted in their attempted anti-Semitic march through an area of East London by anti-fascists such as anarchists, communists, Jewish groups and Irish dockers. However, the actual impact of the opposition to the march is disputed with some historians apparently arguing that it increased the popularity of Moseley's British Union of Fascists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

 

[theprestige]

A popular example that is sometimes cited is the Battle of Cable Street in which Oswald Mosley's blackshirts were thwarted in their attempted anti-Semitic march through an area of East London by anti-fascists such as anarchists, communists, Jewish groups and Irish dockers. However, the actual impact of the opposition to the march is disputed with some historians apparently arguing that it increased the popularity of Moseley's British Union of Fascists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

Thanks for that! This is a great starting point for me to expand my knowledge of the rise and fall of fascism in the 20th century. I appreciate it.

 

[Giz]

A popular example that is sometimes cited is the Battle of Cable Street in which Oswald Mosley's blackshirts were thwarted in their attempted anti-Semitic march through an area of East London by anti-fascists such as anarchists, communists, Jewish groups and Irish dockers. However, the actual impact of the opposition to the march is disputed with some historians apparently arguing that it increased the popularity of Moseley's British Union of Fascists.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street

I thought about providing Cable street as an example but the problem there though is... Moseley's BUF didn't have a hope in hell of coming to power in Britain before Cable Street and it didn't have hope in hell after the 'battle' either. So, except for the very localized success of stopping an intimidating march going through a particular neighbourhood, it didn't actually achieve anything.

 

[dudalb]

Good. So now instead of punching them, all we need is a tank.

I think the prestige was referring to World War 2........

 

[theprestige]

Good. So now instead of punching them, all we need is a tank.

I think he's referring to actual fascists, not just people that the totalitarian left disagrees with.

I know. The jab wasn't directed at Prestige.

I think the prestige was referring to World War 2........

All good. I was indulging in some caveman-esque equivocation about the definition of "anti-fascist resistance": If we conveniently include WW2 in the term, then we can give anarchists credit for being correct that anti-fascist resistance sometimes works.

Unfortunately, as Zig previously observed, Anarchists don't really produce anything, and so are not really capable of the kind of industrialized warfare necessary to effectively resist fascism

 

[Eddie Dane]

All good. I was indulging in some caveman-esque equivocation about the definition of "anti-fascist resistance": If we conveniently include WW2 in the term, then we can give anarchists credit for being correct that anti-fascist resistance sometimes works.

Unfortunately, as Zig previously observed, Anarchists don't really produce anything, and so are not really capable of the kind of industrialized warfare necessary to effectively resist fascism

At the start of WW1, Germany and France had stockpiles of millions of bullets and bombs.

They were really surprised that they were seeing the bottom of their stockpiles within weeks.

It's safe to say that Anarchism and industrialised warfare don't mix.
Communism however.....them T34's.

 

[dudalb]

At the start of WW1, Germany and France had stockpiles of millions of bullets and bombs.

They were really surprised that they were seeing the bottom of their stockpiles within weeks.

.

That is what happens when you plan and expect a short war with a quick victory,and things don't work out.........

Britian had it's own supply crisis in 1915 with the "Shell Scandle" when, basically, the British Army ran out of artillery shells .. It was a major factor,along with Gallipoli, in bringing down the Asquith government.