Brexit: Now What? Part III

[ceptimus]

I've told you. I don't need to. It's self evident. It's what every non-EU country already does.

Let's take Canada as a hypothetical example. Would it make sense for Canada to say that they would control immigration from every country in the world, except for those countries that are EU members whose people would be allowed to enter freely and could not be stopped?

If it doesn't make sense for Canada (hint: it clearly doesn't) then it doesn't make sense for the UK either.

Until you can actually address this argument in a meaningful way, I'm not going to keep going over the same ground with you again and again.

 

[3point14]

I've told you. I don't need to. It's self evident.

No. It isn't. It really isn't.

Please stop conflating 'evidence' with 'stuff you believe'.

Do you understand that this is, or at least was, a message board dedicated to critical thinking?


An analogy isn't evidence, it's just you guessing. you can keep guessing all you like but someone who can actually do critical thinking is going to come along and ask for evidence a lot of the time. It's not that you don't actually have any evidence, it's that you don't even seem to understand what constitutes evidence!

 

[ceptimus]

I don't need evidence for self-evident truths.

What's the flaw in my Canada argument? If you can't point to a flaw, and I know you can't, then you're basically just waffling to cover up the fact that you know I'm right but you don't want to admit it.

 

[3point14]

I don't need evidence for self-evident truths.

Yes, in fact you do. That's really one of the reasons we need to think critically.


in the past the number of things that heave been 'self-evident' from the inferiority of those not of one's own ethnic group, through the 'self evident fact' that homosexuality is evil and an illness, back to the 'self evident fact' that women are inferior and should stay in the kitchen.

All of these have been 'self evident' and all of these have been bollocks.

You have provided no evidence beyond that which you believe, which is no evidence at all.


I'm done with you.

 

[ceptimus]

You seem to be mistaking arguments over politics with discussions about science. I've given perfectly good evidence for my claims in a political forum. If you want the sort of evidence that demands measurement units, graphs, hypotheses and experiments then you need to head over to the science forum.

How would you propose that I prove that what is good for Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand (insert names of all non-EU countries here) is also good for the UK?

The way I propose, is what we're doing. We're leaving the EU, taking control over currently uncontrolled EU migration, and then having controlled migration from the whole world.

Unfortunately it will be a few years before we get the results of the experiment - and even then it will be open to interpretation because of the confounding influence of other factors.

I can take comfort in the fact that my argument is obviously right - and that is why the rest of the world is already doing what I propose.

You can continue in your misguided belief that the EU is doing it right and the rest of the world is wrong. It doesn't bother me if that's what you wish to believe.

 

[dudalb]

So Immigratation was the main reason you support Britix?
How surprised you will be when Britix happens and all those people with Brown and Black skins are still around...including the Mayor of London.

 

[dudalb]

I don't need evidence for self-evident truths.

.

"I have already made up my mind;don't confuse me with facts!"

 

[ceptimus]

So Immigratation was the main reason you support Britix?
How surprised you will be when Britix happens and all those people with Brown and Black skins are still around...including the Mayor of London.

Seems to be a non sequitur. No one that I know of is proposing to execute or otherwise get rid of black UK residents - many of whom were born here and for whom the UK is their home.

We're talking about leaving the EU and taking control over future EU migration. In any case, most EU people are white-skinned not that that makes any difference.

What is your point? You seem to have an unhealthy fixation on race. Are you a racist?

 

[ceptimus]

"I have already made up my mind;don't confuse me with facts!"

I'm certainly not trying to. You seem to be confused enough already.

 

[abaddon]

We do have unskilled migrants from the EU entering right now. Not a lie.

While we're being flooded with migrants and there aren't enough houses and services for everyone, we have to get tough on immigration that we can control to stem the flood. Not a lie.

We can't stop the EU flood for at least another two years while we're still EU members. Not a lie.

Just because you don't agree with someone, it doesn't mean they're lying. You need to do better than that and actually back up your accusations with facts.

The flood will continue, it will simply reverse direction.

Meanwhile, you will suddenly have a dearth of builders, plumbers, electricians, skilled artisans of all type, so those costs will inevitably rise.

In there, you will have removed none of the brown people to whom you so object. They remain. Brexit makes no difference to them. They will remain in racist Britain and continue to flood in. Britain is simply reaping the reward of decades of exploitation of those very same brown people. The British empire? It is to laugh.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The flood will continue, it will simply reverse direction.

Meanwhile, you will suddenly have a dearth of builders, plumbers, electricians, skilled artisans of all type, so those costs will inevitably rise.

In there, you will have removed none of the brown people to whom you so object. They remain. Brexit makes no difference to them. They will remain in racist Britain and continue to flood in. Britain is simply reaping the reward of decades of exploitation of those very same brown people. The British empire? It is to laugh.

Free Trade with the Commonwealth, isn't that what the leavers want?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I've told you. I don't need to. It's self evident. It's what every non-EU country already does.

Let's take Canada as a hypothetical example. Would it make sense for Canada to say that they would control immigration from every country in the world, except for those countries that are EU members whose people would be allowed to enter freely and could not be stopped?

If it doesn't make sense for Canada (hint: it clearly doesn't) then it doesn't make sense for the UK either.

Until you can actually address this argument in a meaningful way, I'm not going to keep going over the same ground with you again and again.

Using this logic it makes no sense for London to allow people from Cornwall the right to move there either. Or vice versa.

And it still doesn't make the lies about immigration not lies

 

[abaddon]

Free Trade with the Commonwealth, isn't that what the leavers want?

Of course, but with conditions. And somehow, they ignore how insignificant they actually are, for example, India didn't exactly warm to the notion. Even little old Belgium exports more to India than the UK does.

 

[Planigale]

Oh I think it's long been obvious that the Little Englanders have a strange relationship with the Union. They want to maintain it while simultaneously having nothing but disdain for the people in those countries. That they would be thrown under the boss when it suits is no surprise.

That their mindless pursuit of a mythical England that has never existed may destroy their precious United Kingdom would be the ultimate irony.

I always think there is something a little racist in this type of comment. England is more ethnically diverse than other parts of the union. If we take Leicester a city with a minority white (Little Englander?) population, it voted for Brexit. England includes inner city slums, rural poverty, affluent suburbia, posh villages, and people from a wide range of cultural and national backgrounds. Mr Singh running the village shop is probably a little Englander. Is Gisela Stuart (good Scottish name there) a little Englander?

 

[ceptimus]

There's nothing to stop EU people still coming here after Brexit, providing they still want to and they have the skills that we want.

 

[ceptimus]

the brown people to whom you so object.

Please keep asserting this lie for as long as you wish. It only serves to make you look stupid.

 

[Planigale]

I think in the longer term immigration is good for the UK. I accept there may be a short term stress on the infrastructure, but whether from the EU or elsewhere I think it is good.

In the days of empire there were no restrictions on imperial subjects coming to the UK. What has changed? Essentially the sociaservice support, benefits, the NHS, council housing. In the days of empire it was sink or swim if you migrated to London. Now there is (rightly) a system to prevent people dying of starvation, so that children are not sweeping chimneys, that treats consumption.

The problem is that though the EU acts like a nation state in allowing free movement within the EU it does not act like a nation state in having some unification of social policy and equality of services across the EU. This results (so some would say) in a move of the poor from areas of poverty to areas of affluence. This reminds me of the (apocryphal?) story of the NZ prime minister asked about the migration from NZ to Australia, "A good thing all round as it results in raising the average IQ of both countries". On an EU level this is probably a good thing as it reduces inequalities across the EU, it is not necessarily so good for the UK (some would say).

 

[abaddon]

Please keep asserting this lie for as long as you wish. It only serves to make you look stupid.

No skin off my nose. You are stuck with them brexit or not.

 

[neilg]

I always think there is something a little racist in this type of comment. England is more ethnically diverse than other parts of the union. If we take Leicester a city with a minority white (Little Englander?) population, it voted for Brexit. England includes inner city slums, rural poverty, affluent suburbia, posh villages, and people from a wide range of cultural and national backgrounds. Mr Singh running the village shop is probably a little Englander. Is Gisela Stuart (good Scottish name there) a little Englander?

Actually you are wrong there. Leicester, the city, voted to remain. Leicestershire as a whole unfortunately voted for Brexit but the city, along with most major English cities, did not. What I find sad is that most Brexiteers I know say that immigration had nothing to do with their vote, yet discuss the EU with them and it always turns to how 'we have to stop immigration' very quickly including outright racism. You can't have a decent debate on any other EU-based topic because they're not actually that interested or knowledgeable.

 

[Planigale]

Actually you are wrong there. Leicester, the city, voted to remain. Leicestershire as a whole unfortunately voted for Brexit but the city, along with most major English cities, did not. What I find sad is that most Brexiteers I know say that immigration had nothing to do with their vote, yet discuss the EU with them and it always turns to how 'we have to stop immigration' very quickly including outright racism. You can't have a decent debate on any other EU-based topic because they're not actually that interested or knowledgeable.

Whoops! You are absolutely right.

FWIW I am not pro Brexit. Sometimes it is educational to argue against your own beliefs. My parents were immigrants to the UK which may colour my belief that immigration is good. This does not mean there is not value in trying to understanding others. Nor does it excuse my father for voting for Brexit, (although since my mother, sister, and I all voted remain as a family we did OK).
Too many people try to link the individual to the argument.