Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
Some do and some do not. Your gross generalisation fails.

2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
Restatement of point one. Useless.

3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
Nope. You are unable to communicate what you intend. There is a difference in there.

4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
Why should we not be here? You have never explained why not.

5. Where in the hell did we come from?
Primordial soup. There is no deity.

6. Nothing makes sense.
Wait. You can't figure it out therefore nobody else can? Is that you claim du jour?

7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
So what? Neither supports your deity of choice. Why you think it might is anyone's guess.

8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
So you claim. Prove it

9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Then your deity of choice is out the window and thrown under the bus.

10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
Why? Demonstrate that at some point in the future there will not be nothing. You cannot.

11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
Wild guesses are utterly useless.

12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
That has already been established.

13. How about multiverses?
What about them?

14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
Not demonstrated. It is simply crap you made up

15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
Already demonstrated to be false.

16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
Already demonstrated to be false.

17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
Really? Jump off a tall building and tell us all how it worked out for you afterwards.

18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
Nope that is outright solipsism.

20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Already demonstrated to be false.

21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Texas sharpshooter again. Stop it.

22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
Nope. It would be as if YOU never existed. Everyone else would continue on as normal.
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
Mostly, we wouldn't care and would simply get on with our lives as normal if you never existed. You seem to have an inflated notion of your own existence. It isn't real.

24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
Nope. What you really mean is that you consider yourself to be some fashion of special snowflake and that you consider all of the rest of us to be figments of your solipsist imaginings.

25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
Agreed. You are an obvious target.

26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
What a load. You have already taken the solipsist path. None of the rest of us even exist.

27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
You are not coincidental (except trivially). You are not impressive. You are not important. None of us are. You might just as well be claiming to be jesus.

28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
Why? We already know that you are utterly wrong. There well may be other levels of wrong in your claims, but once your basic claims have been demonstrated to be devoid of any foundation, why should anyone waste the time to travel down that road?

29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.
The Gallileo appeal by covert means. No. Ain't going to happen.

30. That’s all I can think of for now.
Let me get this straight. All you can think of is the litany of failed arguments you have presented for years and ignore the copious rebuttals presented at every step. You are stating that this is the best you can do? Is that correct?
 
There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.
 
There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.

If he posts the same thing twice, is it the same post? Or two different posts?

Does that mean there are an infinite number of potential posts?

If so, the likelihood of any one post existing is virtually zero.

I'll be in my bunk.
 
Really? You're just going to repeat yourself Jabba? This is getting too boring even for me.

Fine, you win. I agree. You have proved immortality. Go post my concession on whatever website you want and bask in your immortality.
 
For now, here’s what I think.

<Snip the same mistakes as always>
This is what you've - wrongly - thought for over four years, Jabba. Don't you think it's about time you responded to some of the posts pointing out the fatal flaws in it? Or at least made some attempt to understand them?
 
There's nothing new here. Jabba ignores everything that has been addressed and then simply re-posts the same items with no new insight added.
At this point it kinda feels like we're exploiting a known bug to trigger a server crash. I wonder if this means Jabba's going to select a new LCP.
 
For now, here’s what I think.
1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
Wrong
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
Since most of us don't take our consciousness for granted, this is moot.
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
That is because it is wrong.
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
Why shouldn't we be here?
5. Where in the hell did we come from?
Have you heard of evolution?

6. Nothing makes sense.
Codswallop. Lots of things make sense. Some things require study to understand.
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
And so...?
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
It is less likely than the alternative, but we will need to get closer to T=0 before we can know for sure.
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
Why not?
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
Has anyone proposed this other than you?
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
Your best guess might be right, but I'll stick with science.
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
Ya think?
13. How about multiverses?
How about them? It's an hypothesis, one among many others.
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
To you. Not to many other people.
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
See above.
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.
Utter unmitigated codswallop.

17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
Pure solipsism
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
Still solipsism
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
No, it's solipsism.
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
Codswallop and solipsism writ large.

21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!
No, that doesn't follow.

22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
Only to YOU. That is the solipsistic view. If you didn't exist, the rest of the world would just carry on regardless.
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
Again, only from your solipsistic perspective. If you never existed, the universe would carry on just as it is.
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
Which is the very definition of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
Codswallop.
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
Nonsense (I got fed up with typing codswallop).
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
More solipsism. There is nothing coincidental or impressive about anyone's existence.
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
I suspect that you have no real idea about how to use Bayes' Theorem.
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.
In a thousand years, if humans are still in existence, I expect that science will have answered many more questions and rescinded some things that we currently think are true. But so what? That doesn't mean that your deity of choice exists, or that immortality is true, or that a solipsistic world view is more valid than the currently accepted hypothesis that we are here now, we won't be here forever, and that none of us is individually necessary to the universe.

30. That’s all I can think of for now.
And yet, none of it made a lick of sense.

ETA I'll be on my sofa.
 
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For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
[....]

30. That’s all I can think of for now.

This is your 19th Nervous Breakdown. It's all you have talked about for 5 years.
 
Where in the hell did we come from?


I don't know about you, but I just came from the Stop & Shop.


6. Nothing makes sense.


Which is why we assume as little as possible and test the rest in a repeatable, falsifiable manner.


13. How about multiverses?


How about them? I think they've got a good chance to win the pennant this years.



20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!


You've never shown that the denominator is infinity. There is no such thing as "virtually" zero. Low probability events happen all the time.


22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!


Well, there'd be one guy less. But I'm sure they could have still found a buyer for your house.


24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”


That's not what anybody else means by it, to the extent it's a real term.



Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.


Rear Admiral Peter Rainier would be so sad to hear that. Not only did he beat increadible odds by existing but he got a volcano named after him.


27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.


Neither is coincidental. They actually appear to be the same thing. There may have been a small chance that you would exist as you are today, but if you didn't exist you wouldn't be "important" by your definition. It's like me pointing out the astonishing coincidence that my wife both gave birth and is a female.


29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark


"I suspect the groom would like to delay."

-Four Weddings and a Funeral
 
For now, here’s what I think.


1. We take our selves, our consciousnesses, totally for granted.
2. When, in truth, we are the very last things (or processes) we should take for granted.
3. This idea seems impossible to communicate effectively…
4. We simply shouldn’t be here; yet we take ourselves totally for granted.
5. Where in the hell did we come from?

6. Nothing makes sense.
7. Either there has always been something, or at one time there was nothing.
8. That at one time there was nothing certainly doesn't make sense.
9. However, that there has always been something doesn't make sense either…
10. And, that sometime there will be nothing, also doesn’t make sense.
11. My best guess is that time is infinite – that there has always been something, and will always be something.
12. But then, that’s a pretty weak guess, and maybe a better guess is that my parameters are somehow wrong to begin with.
13. How about multiverses?
14. But still, one way or another, infinity seems to make the most sense.
15. As does there being an infinity of potential selves, awarenesses or consciousnesses.
16. And if so, the likelihood of my current existence, and the posterior probability of OOFLam must both be virtually zero.

17. And then, I am the only thing (or process) that I know for sure actually exists!
18. I don’t think that I’m the only thing (or process) that exists – unless, we are (somehow) all the same.
19. This isn’t solipsism – it’s the truth.
20. But then, the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

21. Now, this doesn’t mean that OOFLam is necessarily wrong -- unless I’m a legitimate target, it only means that the likelihood of me currently existing – given OOFLam – is one/∞, or virtually zero!

22. If I didn’t currently exist, it would be as if there were nothing!
23. If I never existed, it would be as if there were(?) never anything...
24. This is what I mean by “target meaningfulness.”
25. There are different shades of target -- some targets are much more obvious than are others.
26. I’m claiming that targets don’t require red and white circles, that you and I make for real targets, that Mt Rainier is impressive, but Mt Rainier is not nearly as meaningful as are we.
27. My importance and likelihood, together, are really coincidental and impressive.
28. I suspect that the posterior probability of an hypothesis that claims the likelihood of an occurring event to be virtually zero should be considered probably wrong…
29. I suspect that modern science is well off the mark, and at some point we'll figure that what is now considered modern science will be compared to the science before Copernicus.

30. That’s all I can think of for now.

New thread, new list of abject bollocks
 
- I think I'm done...

- As you might expect, I still think I'm right -- but I also think that I've run out of steam.
- I kept hoping that I could figure out a way to express my opinion so that a couple of road dogs here would see what I mean and, at least roughly, agree -- but, no such luck.

- As you also might expect, I can't resist repeating the basic idea -- i.e., seems like there has to be an infinity of potential selves/"souls" (whatever they are). And, if so, OOFLam must be wrong -- given OOFLam, the likelihood of my current existence should be virtually zero. And, any reasonably possible alternative explanation should outweigh chance and luck by a long shot.
- I think that does it...

- Though, I think I'll write to Marilyn vos Savant.
- I may be back.
 
We all see what you mean, Jabba, but we will never agree because we - unlike you - also see why you are wrong.
 
The problem is, Jabba, you refuse to even consider that there is no such thing as a soul.
 
Jabba believe it or not while I will not do you the disservice of being dishonest by telling that this thread has not been treated with a high degree of, at most charitable, bemusement by most involved for some time now even after all this we don't want you to just walk away in a huff.

We want you to learn something or at the very least demonstrate the ability to take in and process information on any level. It's just so frustrating that everything you say and do is just so antithetical to that.
 
I think I'm done...

You were done years ago. But just as you did in the Shroud thread, you kept arguing long after you lost. Effective debate stops after one party loses. It doesn't continue in perpetuity so that the losing party can figure out a way to save face.

As you might expect, I still think I'm right --

You aren't.

Yes, I can be that confident. Certain arguments are just broken at their very core, and yours is one of them. The only reason it has taken so long for you to concede is that you haven't been honest either with yourself or with your critics. You have pursued a failed argument simply because you don't want to admit error. It's nothing more noble than face-saving.

You've had literally dozens of very smart people attempt to correct your errors, and you have behaved incredibly rudely toward them. These are people who volunteered their time and efforts on your behalf, and you won't give the satisfaction of admitting they've been right all along.

I kept hoping that I could figure out a way to express my opinion so that a couple of road dogs here would see what I mean and, at least roughly, agree -- but, no such luck.

Yes, it's been painfully obvious that all you want is approval. You promised us a mathematical proof. But now we're back to where it started and where it should have stayed -- your opinion. As many have told you, believe whatever you want. But don't pretend you can prove your beliefs mathematically unless you know how to deliver the goods.

You don't.

As you also might expect, I can't resist repeating the basic idea -- i.e., seems like there has to be an infinity of potential selves/"souls" (whatever they are).

There isn't. Probability just doesn't work that way. This is the third thread (by my count) that you've started trying to apply probability to mystical questions in an effort to prove them. The result in all three has been a clear demonstration that you don't understand probability. Own it, and move on with your life.

And, any reasonably possible alternative explanation should outweigh chance and luck by a long shot.

No, this is just the same false dilemma every fringe claimant uses. You come up with some particular method and standard by which to dismiss the prevailing view and then hope your unevidenced, unsupported woo claim holds by default.

That's not how proof works, mathematical or otherwise. False dilemmas don't let you do that.
 
So now, at the end of all things, Jabba still thinks he's the best man in this argument.

"End of all things." Harh! It is to laugh harshly! He'll be back.
 
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