“This is what tolerance looks like at UC Berkeley”

It's one thing to accept that Fred Phelps can get on his soapbox on a street corner. It's quite another to expect no one to counter protest if the extracurricular Christian Club invites him to share his views on campus.

Free speech applies to counter protests as well.

Some people are just out to see how vile they can get away with and when they don't get away with it, they complain about being shut down because ... unfair. : rolleyes :

Counter protests are awesome. I love counter protests. I bet Milo does too. The more speech, the better.

But we're not talking about counter protests, here. We're talking about a violent and destructive rampage. We're talking about the use of violence to suppress speech. That's the vile **** you're defending here.
 
Only if you accept the idea that a person can be illegal.

You're trying to engage in a meaningless semantic squabble in order to ignore the real point. The only semantic objection I will accept is that technically I should say "illegal alien", since that is the statutorily defined term. But both "illegal immigrant" and "illegal alien" have a well-established meaning, you were not confused by my meaning, and your politically correct objection has no bearing on my argument. Either address my actual point, or find someone else to whine to, because I simply don't care.
 
Don't think those are the only possible outcomes. Just my opinion but it would seem like there is middle ground from those outcomes and other more optimistic ones. As well as the possibility that inaction could cause civilian injuries or deaths.



I have been upfront that I am no expert in crowd dispersion/riot protocol but from your experience you have obviously seen different outcomes to different tactics used by police in these situations. Is non-intervention always the best method? And could a better planned police response before an event happens be a contributing factor?

I seem to be on the side that inaction and bad planning can cause more issues, while you seem to be of the view that police action to intervene could cause more trouble than it would solve. I don't think either of us are necessarily right or wrong since it would depend on the situation, but hopefully places that these actions are common place at can take a second look to see if policies that are in place are as good as they can be.

Don't think it something that requires federal funds being withheld to solve, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't question if there is anything that could be done better.

Well, I'm speaking to the scale we saw at UCB.

I would call that a destructive protest.

We're in a time of constant hyperbolic language and people call anything that gets more contentious than a candlelight vigil a riot. I'm not endorsing destructive protest, but it is still a bit of a ways from a riot.

Think of a scale of civil action escalation

Meetings held publicly for discussion
Presence at a place of significance to an issue
Flash mob type public performance or spectacle, usually satirical ridicule
March through neighborhoods to increase visibility
Disruptive actions to gain the attention of an institution (hard bargaining)

That last one is about where it gets grey for me. It has to be on the table or there's never going to be any bargaining with that powerful institution at all. It is a direct representation of how many people will put their bodies in the way of something that is past their limit of fundamentally wrong to them. How many people will take the time to get arrested, get processed, get a lawyer, pay the fine, and so on. It is essentially a form of combat without the body count.

Especially in the case of business interests being hampered over a social issue, unless the business interest in question is run by people with an ideological stake. They'll be calling their purchased politicians and telling them to knock off their social engineering ASAP. The police departments are spending money like crazy watching these actions and arresting people (boots=money). Now the city council is mad. The court may get your fine, but they've got a judge, prosecutor, paralegal staff, and a correctional division, time is money yet again. This is how you push power around.

Everything past this is beyond what I would consider justified (or effective). These acts go beyond decency or civility for someone's sense of moral affront to justify.

Hostility and intimidation towards dissenters
Property destruction and assault
Looting and rioting
Threats and acts of targeted destruction
Assassinations
Open revolt

So there's an escalation gradient appropriate to those on the other side. You'd hardly want rubber bullets and tear gas for the women's march that took place. The police looked like they were expecting the hostility/intimidation level and it went a few notches higher than they anticipated into the destructive level. So they contain the issue and focus on preventing people from getting hurt. Meanwhile resources are mounting at the same time the ones committing destructive acts are exhausting themselves in their frenzy. Once the resources arrive, the crowd is more weary, easier to chase down, putting up less of a struggle. It basically comes down to who's burning more calories if you want to look at it that way.

I won't deny they got caught flat-footed, but I don't they they were intentionally lax. It's the same thing we see with championship victories that go overboard. Most cops are decent people, they want people to be safe and alive, so they focus first on removing people not involved who might get hurt. People get tired, need to pee, get hungry, that moves body signals from amped to anxious, which means feet lead the body elsewhere. Police watch and study who the problem people are, start making moves when they are isolated, all the same stuff.
 
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I agree. Protesting his speech is okay, violence that prevents his speech is not.

Same questions:

-Which violence?

-How many undocumented people being outed is such an event worth to you?

-What if it were a town under Nazi occupation and someone wanted to hold a public speech to the SS telling them where the Jews are hiding?
 
I so knew that was coming. I almost added it as a spoiler to my post.

Not to defend the dubious claim, but I think that Milo could "out" people who were not actually attending his speech. Even if John Smith were not in attendance, announcing on stage to (presumably) his peers that John Smith was an illegal alien would still be outing him. I don't see how warning people before they enter the venue would actually prevent Milo from outing anyone.
 
Same questions:

-Which violence?

-How many undocumented people being outed is such an event worth to you?

-What if it were a town under Nazi occupation and someone wanted to hold a public speech to the SS telling them where the Jews are hiding?

The students brought here as children have DACA permits, SS numbers, are legally entitled to work, and pay 1/3 what foreign students pay because they are considered legal residents of California (just not legal immigrants). According to Berkeley requirements, they should all have filed (or will soon file) for legal immigration status. There is an office on every campus to help specifically with these issue of protection and privacy. No one is coming to deport them!

However, there are people who feel the obligation to attack them, personally, saying they are taking seats away from citizens. These are ignorant asshats who cause them unwarranted anxiety and fear. It's a good reason not to be so public about their immigration status to avoid potential harassment. But asshats cannot deport anyone.

The fear has been that Trump would rescind DACA (which was an executive order). But he indicated that these students should not suffer for their parents actions and has no plans to demote their status. He will probably replace Obamas order just to Trump him (ie. will give them green cards before graduating to improve employment opportunities, but with serious vetting for criminals and a faster track for good grades).

That said, any undocumented student with criminal convictions may have real cause to worry.
 
Not to defend the dubious claim, but I think that Milo could "out" people who were not actually attending his speech. Even if John Smith were not in attendance, announcing on stage to (presumably) his peers that John Smith was an illegal alien would still be outing him. I don't see how warning people before they enter the venue would actually prevent Milo from outing anyone.
On the other hand, Milo doesn't have to be there to out John Smith, either. Protesting then speech doesn't stop him from outing people on social media and letting his followers take it viral on campus.
 

Anyone else see the death threat in here? Insane.

We have less reason than ever to behave ourselves or rely on liberal solutions. Right now, anarchists remain a small minority. But if society continues polarizing — if people recognize that the only way to defend themselves against you and the puppeteers who pull your strings is to take direct action — then there may be a lot more people alongside us soon.

It might even be too many for the authorities to control — just like it was in Berkeley.

And if that happens, the daddy state won’t be able to protect you.
 
And on the other coast, someone at NYU is ... concerned about Gavin McInnes. And she's a professor. (edit to add - NSFW language warning)




"Nazi" has now officially joined "racist", "sexist", and "misogynist" on the list of words which used to actually mean something specific (and terrible), but now simply translate as "you're a bad man and I don't like you". Ironically, from what little I know of him, McInnes is someone who could legitimately be called a sexist or transphobic. But instead we go to the Nazi well yet again as le mot du jour.
 
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Berkeley, the birthplace of the free speech movement (and of me).

Berkeley is not the birthplace of the free speech movement. It is the birthplace of the "Free Speech Movement" which was intentionally misnamed:

Do you want to know where the birthplace of the free-speech movement was? Well nobody knows for sure, but I have some guesses. It might have been ancient Athens. Or it might have been Jerusalem or Bethlehem. Or maybe it was London where, in 1689, the English Bill of Rights established a constitutional right to free speech for Parliament. Or maybe it was Philadelphia in 1776 or 1789.
I can make arguments for all of these places as birthplaces for the free-speech movement. You know where I can’t make that argument? Mother-[expletive deleted]ing Berkeley in 1964.



Whaddya know, thanks.

You're most welcome!
 

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