• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

President Trump: Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
3point14 said:
Ah, so Clinton figured people were smart and well educated enough to understand nuance and Trump lied.

Hillary's mistake was respecting the electorate? Donald's genius was his disdain for the critical thinking skills of the electorate?

How anyone can blame the losing party in this mentalness is beyond me. "You didn't lie enough, you didn't dumb things down so far they're meaningless." Is this the objection?
Click to expand...

I think there's always been an element of pandering in politicians' messages but Trump has taken things to a new level by repeatedly telling people things that cannot possibly be true
 
The Don said:
I think there's always been an element of pandering in politicians' messages but Trump has taken things to a new level by repeatedly telling people things that cannot possibly be true
Click to expand...

This much is obvious. The desire by some to apportion blame based on not being underhand or downright duplicitous enough is mental to me.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
In fairness nor did any Afghans or Iraqis.

But yes apparently we are now at the point where people will defend trump for threatening an ally and neighbour for no reason.
Click to expand...

While you're right about the Iraqis, the Afghans can at least be said to have been harboring the ultimate mastermind behind the attack.

I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure we gave the Taliban (who were in control of Afghanistan at the time) ample opportunity to turn Osama bin Laden over to us. They chose not to. We sent troops. Bin Laden may not have been an Afghan by birth, but he was living there at the time and the then government refused to turn him over. I believe, under most accepted interpretations of international warfare, that is in fact grounds to allow for sending troops into a sovereign nation.

Now the Iraqis... that was just dumb on our part and should never have happened. Ever.
 
Sabrina said:
While you're right about the Iraqis, the Afghans can at least be said to have been harboring the ultimate mastermind behind the attack.

I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure we gave the Taliban (who were in control of Afghanistan at the time) ample opportunity to turn Osama bin Laden over to us. They chose not to. We sent troops. Bin Laden may not have been an Afghan by birth, but he was living there at the time and the then government refused to turn him over. I believe, under most accepted interpretations of international warfare, that is in fact grounds to allow for sending troops into a sovereign nation.

Now the Iraqis... that was just dumb on our part and should never have happened. Ever.
Click to expand...

Weird thing is, there was a much larger military effort expended in Iraq than Afghanistan.
 
3point14 said:
Ah, so Clinton figured people were smart and well educated enough to understand nuance and Trump lied.

Hillary's mistake was respecting the electorate? Donald's genius was his disdain for the critical thinking skills of the electorate?

How anyone can blame the losing party in this mentalness is beyond me. "You didn't lie enough, you didn't dumb things down so far they're meaningless." Is this the objection?
Click to expand...

When you put it like that, it seems so depressing. There's a lot of truth to it, but it seems so depressing.

However, I don't think it actually explains her loss in the key states where she was defeated. I think one way to explain it is that she didn't counter the lies effectively. She thought people would see through the lies by themselves. In some way that's respecting the electorate.

A different element that is missing from that explanation is that she didn't really offer a competing vision. I look back at her candidacy and I can't remember what it was that she wanted for America. I remember tax the rich and free college. I'm not sure that message could be said to be very respectful of the electorate, especially the segment that didn't go to college.
 
Meadmaker said:
However, I don't think it actually explains her loss in the key states where she was defeated. I think one way to explain it is that she didn't counter the lies effectively. She thought people would see through the lies by themselves. In some way that's respecting the electorate.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's entirely fair - people were so invested in the lies that IMO no amount of countering from Hillary would have made a blind bit of difference and could have backfired if she came across as hectoring, condescending or indeed crushing people's dreams.

IMO if someone is like Trump and is unabashed with his lies there's not much you can do. If the past if a politician was caught in a lie then they tended to go on the defensive and as a result were damaged by it. Trump OTOH just brazens it out or even doubles down. I don't think you can learn to do that or fake it (otherwise it comes across as false) I think it's "gift".
 
The Don said:
I don't think that's entirely fair - people were so invested in the lies that IMO no amount of countering from Hillary would have made a blind bit of difference and could have backfired if she came across as hectoring, condescending or indeed crushing people's dreams.

IMO if someone is like Trump and is unabashed with his lies there's not much you can do. If the past if a politician was caught in a lie then they tended to go on the defensive and as a result were damaged by it. Trump OTOH just brazens it out or even doubles down. I don't think you can learn to do that or fake it (otherwise it comes across as false) I think it's "gift".
Click to expand...


It's all part of the new, fact-free, political climate.

Does this sort of thing happen in places with better education systems? Are the Japan or Finland or Estonia or the Netherlands?

Is this the end point of lack of investment in education in the US (Trump) and the UK (leaving the EU)?
 
Stacko said:
Now they're just straight up making things up.
Click to expand...

....and completely getting away with it.

First Kellyann Conway says it and then Rand Paul repeats it.

Despite the complete lack of any evidence it is now effectively "fact" because it has been referred to so much, people believe it happened (like the tens of thousands of Muslims cheering 9-11 in New Jersey). :rolleyes:

The current administration have learned that there are no consequences for pulling out complete lies and so they will continue to do so.
 
3point14 said:
It's all part of the new, fact-free, political climate.

Does this sort of thing happen in places with better education systems? Are the Japan or Finland or Estonia or the Netherlands?

Is this the end point of lack of investment in education in the US (Trump) and the UK (leaving the EU)?
Click to expand...

Is it the inevitable consequence of the "democratisation" of knowledge ? Friends who are doctors say that they experience the same thing. In many people's minds, 10 minutes on a well-known internet search engine outweighs decades of medical training and experience these days.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
In fairness nor did any Afghans or Iraqis.

But yes apparently we are now at the point where people will defend trump for threatening an ally and neighbour for no reason.
Click to expand...
But the "bad hombres" Trump has in mind may for all we know be non-Mexicans hiding in caves on the slopes of Popocatepetl, plotting terrorist acts against the USA, and whom the Mexican armed forces are too scared to confront.
 
Last edited:
The Don said:
I don't think that's entirely fair - people were so invested in the lies that IMO no amount of countering from Hillary would have made a blind bit of difference and could have backfired if she came across as hectoring, condescending or indeed crushing people's dreams.

IMO if someone is like Trump and is unabashed with his lies there's not much you can do. If the past if a politician was caught in a lie then they tended to go on the defensive and as a result were damaged by it. Trump OTOH just brazens it out or even doubles down. I don't think you can learn to do that or fake it (otherwise it comes across as false) I think it's "gift".
Click to expand...

I believe this is accurate. I don't think anyone has thought of an effective counter to what happened yet. I hope someone does.
 
Garrison said:
...the media seemed only to eager to latch on to the mere suggestion of impropriety when it concerned Clinton and ignore demonstrable lies/bad behaviour on the part of Trump.
Click to expand...

TofuFighter said:
I believe this is accurate. I don't think anyone has thought of an effective counter to what happened yet. I hope someone does.
Click to expand...


This is an alternate reality from the one in which I find myself.

From dissing John McCain's war record to mocking a cripple to criticizing Gold Star parents to grabbing pussies and on and on, I saw every one of Trump's many missteps played in a loop by the mainstream media and met with eye-rolling incredulity, with most of the talking heads predicting each was the final straw marking the end of his campaign. Hardly ignoring the "lies/bad behaviour".

The vagaries of human perception are fascinating, regardless!
 
Last edited:
Fast Eddie B said:
This is an alternate reality from the one in which I find myself.

From dissing John McCain's war record to mocking a cripple to criticizing Gold Star parents to grabbing pussies and on and on, I saw every one of Trump's many missteps played in a loop by the mainstream media and met with eye-rolling incredulity, with most of the talking heads predicting each was the final straw marking the end of his campaign. Hardly ignoring the "lies/bad behaviour".

The vagaries of human perception are fascinating, regardless!
Click to expand...

What is your perception of the coverage of Trump's foundation vs Clinton's foundation? Which one actually broke the law? Which one was written and talked about more?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom