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Is there really a war on Christianity?

A quick Google search turned up more than 2 million hits for the phrase "war on Christianity"


Which is what I did also, and what we encouraged The Big Dog to do in order to dispel his doubt that the phrase was indeed used "in the wild." Asking at length that his opponents explicitly provide examples, as a substitute for such self-service information gathering, is less reasonable, in my opinion...


Sorry, I have to disagree. In skepticism the burden to provide evidence for a claim should be on those making the claim, not on those challenging it.

If a claim is true, as this one is, it's generally not difficult for those of us who believe it's true to find good evidence and display it. If a claim is false it is difficult to find good evidence -- which is why supporters of false claims often play games in which they find excuses not to provide evidence and try to put the burden on those challenging the claim. One of those excuses is Oh, it's easy to find the evidence, it's all over the place, just use Google, I'm not going to do your homework for you... That's one reason it's important that we not legitimize that excuse by using it ourselves.

The fact we were able to turn up 2 million hits is an encouraging sign when one is searching for evidence to support our belief that there are many people who have claimed there is a war on Christianity, but it does not actually show it. That's why it's important to actually check some of the hits, see if they actually support the claim, and if so present the examples, rather than just saying that a search will turn up lots of Google hits.

One can see this with a lot of right-wing echo chamber claims about what liberals supposedly say or believe. A Google search will turn up a very large number of hits -- but the overwhelming majority often turn out to be to right-wing echo chamber sites repeating the claim that liberals believe something rather than to instances where liberals actually said it.

That's why it's important to verify one's evidence for oneself before posting it, and to describe accurately what is to be found at the links and how it supports one's claim, rather than just posting links. That helps those we are discussing a matter with see more easily when valid evidence actually has been provided to support a claim and see more easily when valid evidence actually has not been provided.

As skeptics, what we should want are methods which make it easier for people to see that a claim is true (if it is true) and easier to see if a claim is false (if it is false). A good method for doing that is for people who make a claim to present the evidence in support of that claim in clear plain language. The method you're proposing -- that the burden is on those challenging a claim to find the evidence supporting the claim -- instead makes life easier for people promoting false claims.
 
On English language sites like this one the theists are almost always Christian, and hence their beliefs are in the cross hairs.
'Cross hairs'? Like a sniper in a war, a war on Christianity, perhaps? :)

christ_chrosshairs.jpg
 
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Sorry, I have to disagree. In skepticism the burden to provide evidence for a claim should be on those making the claim, not on those challenging it.

Not if the challenge is irrational. Or if the challenge is a rhetorical technique, say, to derail a debate that's not going your way. And it's not as if the burden of production was abrogated in this case. If the premise to an argument is that X exists, and a challenge is made to produce evidence that X exists, it's perfectly legitimate to instruct a person what to do in order to find that evidence himself, especially if those instructions work out to be faster and easier than someone else composing a presentation of it. A request to produce substantiation does not necessarily have to be satisfied in the form demanded by the supplicant if easier and better ways exist. If I got my information from a Google search, then it's perfectly legitimate to ask someone to conduct a similar search themselves rather than waste my time repackaging the information.

And if there is a question of properly characterizing the material, I'm perfectly willing to remove my editorial influence form the loop if possible. That's certainly not to say that all search results have the same value. Bit it is to say that I'm not imposing any selection or interpretation criteria on the information. Any subsequent debate on applicability of results therefore starts on equal footing.

That's why it's important to actually check some of the hits, see if they actually support the claim...

And I did that, and I encouraged him to do that. You did that too, and look at how much in agreement you and I are over what we found overall. You're right, of course. A search results page alone doesn't mean anything.

...and if so present the examples, rather than just saying that a search will turn up lots of Google hits.

But in this case that opens the door to a charge of cherry picking. "You only showed the examples that fit your claim." By relegating the production of evidence to a dispassionate third party, one can avoid seeming prejudiced. Now if the evidence were more difficult to find than this was, the situation would be different. Some information needs knowledgeable interpretation.

The method you're proposing -- that the burden is on those challenging a claim to find the evidence supporting the claim -- instead makes life easier for people promoting false claims.

That's not quite what I'm proposing. First, not all challenges have merit. If I propose an argument based on the premise that abortion is divisive social issue, and someone challenges that premise, it's not really a rational challenge. Abortion is unquestionably a divisive social issue and it requires little if any documentation to say so. The challenge would have to be more than bare denial, such as asking to clarify in what way the issue is divisive. I find the proposition "It is said there is a 'war on Christianity'" to be in the same category.

Even if it isn't, we live in an age where someone disputing that proposition has the easy means (and therefore the responsibility) to perform a modicum of due diligence before disputing it and imposing a burden of proof. If someone bases an argument on an allegation that Benjamin Franklin lived for a time in France, even if that fact isn't generally well known, I would have some responsibility to attempt to verify that fact myself before demanding documentation in knee-jerk fashion. The duty to response to a challenge is in direct responsibility to the diligence by which that challenge is tendered.

Second, I'm not opposed to finding the evidence that supports my claim, but I may be opposed to the manner in which I'm asked to present it. It's common practice in these sorts of debates to derail an opponent's line of questioning by demanding lengthy and difficult productions of proof in specific ways designed to force the opponent either to clear that bar or abandon the point. As I explained, and to which you have added clarification and comment, I don't find it inevitably impolite to ask a person to do a web search for facts that are amenable to such inquiry, in lieu of me presenting it myself. Even in other arenas, I have no compunction requiring an opponent to do basic background research to substantiate the legitimacy of his challenge.

For some questions that would be inappropriate, such as for obscure information that may be difficult to find or understand. That requires a diligent production of evidence in an affirmative, active form. But for questions of the form, "Is anyone saying this?" I think it is appropriate to determine at least how diligently the objector has been in determining whether it's been said. Lazy challenges incur little duty in satisfying them. The debate over whether what's being said is true is the interesting part, as we have seen. Discovering whether it's actually being said in public discourse is easy enough for either party, and shouldn't incur such a formal burden of proof.
 
Sorry, I have to disagree. In skepticism the burden to provide evidence for a claim should be on those making the claim, not on those challenging it...

[Lengthy post snipped]


Not if the challenge is irrational. Or if the challenge is a rhetorical technique, say, to derail a debate that's not going your way...

[Lengthy and good reply snipped]


My apologies for side-tracking us from the discussion of whether there really is a war on Christianity.

I think the topic of this side-track is worth discussing, though, so I'll try to start a new thread in a day or so over in General Skepticism where we can discuss this further.
 
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'Cross hairs'? Like a sniper in a war, a war on Christianity, perhaps? :)

[qimg]https://cybersattva.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/christ_chrosshairs.jpg?w=640[/qimg]


Hey, nice shot of Jesus, although if the skin was a bit darker and the eyes brown it may have more credibility.

You haven't scored any points here however, because I have already conceded that we atheists are at war with Christianity, (not Christians), along with all other brands of woo that try to hold us down.
 
Hey, nice shot of Jesus, although if the skin was a bit darker and the eyes brown it may have more credibility.

No, that's pretty much what Jesus looks like.

Except for Muslims. For Muslims, Jesus looks like the younger Osama Bin Laden. Kind of smokey-eyed and charismatic, with a sexy undercurrent of danger.
 
Until I see widespread Christian places of worship being vandalised almost daily and talk of bringing into law the banning of clothing and iconography I don't see a war.
That's pretty much how I see it. Talk of a "war" on Christianity (at least in the US) is a tad exaggerated.

However, there is a concerted effort to remove all Christian references from our daily lives. (Happy Holidays anyone?)
 
...
However, there is a concerted effort to remove all Christian references from our daily lives. (Happy Holidays anyone?)


Just saying "concerted" may be an exaggeration on your part. They exist, but probably in the same numbers as those who get their panties in a twist if you don't say "Merry Christmas".

As an atheist I don't care, though I'm used to using "Merry Christmas". Plenty of folks have other holiday traditions (hell, "Christmas" itself if the product of grand theft) so I respond in kind to whoever throws me a holiday greeting or farewell.

If I actually knew anybody who celebrates Kwanzaa, I'd just as happily parrot back whatever well wishes they prefer.

What I can't stand is repeating "Happy Holidays" to some random cashier, and having the blue-hair busybody* in line have a conniption because we didn't say "Merry Christmas".

Really... who's "at war" with who here?

---
*Generally the same busybody we know anecdotally to scream if the register comes up $6.66, though I haven't seen that one in the wild... yet.
 
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Just saying "concerted" may be an exaggeration on your part. They exist, but probably in the same numbers as those who get their panties in a twist if you don't say "Merry Christmas".

Actually, no. We can go to the numbers on this one.

Washington Post said:
To frame it another way, conservatives often caricature liberals as too quick to take offense over politically incorrect speech. But in the PPP poll, people who described themselves as “very conservative” were more than twice as likely to be offended by “Happy Holidays” (21 percent) as “very liberal” respondents were to be offended by “Merry Christmas” (10 percent).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-holiday-greetings/?utm_term=.341e8a52fa8c

"War on Happy Holidays" would be more accurate.
 
That's pretty much how I see it. Talk of a "war" on Christianity (at least in the US) is a tad exaggerated.

However, there is a concerted effort to remove all Christian references from our daily lives. (Happy Holidays anyone?)

No, there is NOT a "concerted effort to remove all Christian references" from our daily lives. Your "Happy Holidays" example is exactly the opposite.

There are people and businesses who have chosen to say "Happy Holidays" in an effort to be inclusive of all.

CHRISTIANS have bitched about it. They are going off on people who say "Happy Holidays" insisting that they say "Merry Christmas" instead.

So again, this isn't a war on Christians. Your example is a war, by Christians, on those who don't give Christianity special preference.
 
So again, this isn't a war on Christians. Your example is a war, by Christians, on those who don't give Christianity special preference.

OP answered, nothing but net.

No, that's pretty much what Jesus looks like.

Except for Muslims. For Muslims, Jesus looks like the younger Osama Bin Laden. Kind of smokey-eyed and charismatic, with a sexy undercurrent of danger.

*MostlyDead struggles with confusing arousal*
 
anzaa, I'd just as happily parrot back whatever well wishes they prefer.

What I can't stand is repeating "Happy Holidays" to some random cashier, and having the blue-hair busybody* in line have a conniption because we didn't say "Merry Christmas".

.


I will often say happy or merry Winter Solstice, (if in the Northern hemisphere - Summer Solstice in the Southern), and usually get a funny look in return. If people ask why I say that I will elaborate. After all it is the real reason for the season.:)
 
However, there is a concerted effort to remove all Christian references from our daily lives. (Happy Holidays anyone?)

Since christmas crap starts at halloween rather than thanksgiving nowadays, happy holidays pretty much covers all bases. Anyone choosing to be offended for being wished happy holidays is doing just that. Tis the season for special snowflakes.
 
Since christmas crap starts at halloween rather than thanksgiving nowadays, happy holidays pretty much covers all bases. Anyone choosing to be offended for being wished happy holidays is doing just that. Tis the season for special snowflakes.

Christ, they have hot cross buns on the shelf the day after Christmas in OZ so why not have a name for it all that encompasses everything.
 
No war whatsoever.

In my area, if you tune in to KOFY on Saturday nights you can watch a horror movie hosted by two costumed characters and staring various local strippers and a great local band.

If you turn off your TV after watching that show and get up early on Sunday morning and turn on the TV to that station you can watch Sunday morning Mass from a local catholic church.

Who needs a war?

ETA: Holy Moses! post 8666? maybe there is a war.
 
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No war whatsoever.

In my area, if you tune in to KOFY on Saturday nights you can watch a horror movie hosted by two costumed characters and staring various local strippers and a great local band.

If you turn off your TV after watching that show and get up early on Sunday morning and turn on the TV to that station you can watch Sunday morning Mass from a local catholic church.

Who needs a war?

ETA: Holy Moses! post 8666? maybe there is a war.


Yeah, but that's old UHF TV20... barely counts, ya heathen sanctuary city.

And there's probably a hidden sideband on the Sunday broadcasts with a pagan ritual of some sort... you can't fool me. :rolleyes:
 
I'm not seeing a war on Christians, but I do see a war on Christmas.

I'm an atheist myself, so I don't have any sympathy for believers of Sky Daddy in any flavor, but I do like Christmas, it's a tradition.

Christmas was banned by the Massachusetts Bay Colony Puritans of 1620.
 
Why is it that Christians play victims? They want the government to enforce their right to persecute others ie; gays, lesbians, people of other faiths and of course atheists. And when others object to being stomped on Christians play the poor victim card. They object to the secular mythology around Christmas but of course ignore the fact that without Santa and a Christmas Carol etc few people would celebrate it.
 

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