Brexit: Now What? Part II

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The Don said:
He's been anti-EU for most of his political career viewing it as a corporatist body focused on the suppression of workers' rights. As Labour leader he reluctantly assumed a Remain position for the referendum but his lack of enthusiasm was clear, not least when he appeared on The Last Leg announcing that his support for staying in the EU was "7 or 8 out of 10" before settling on "7 and a half".
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I see. An utter moron, then.

That would require a Labour Party led by a professional politician (or class traitor depending on whether or not you're a Corbynista ;)). Corbyn wouldn't take a position which conflicts with his personal views. He literally doesn't it in him to lead the opposition IMO.
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How did he win the Labour election twice is beyond me. You Brits are weird.

Again, the actions of a professional politician, not the leader of the 6th form Socialist Society - which effectively IMO Corbyn is.
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The thing is, if he wants UK to become a workers' paradise, he needs to have this debate. It's not like a Tory UK without EU will be a workers' paradise, or that Labour has any shot at winning the elections anytime soon if they act as Tory vassals.

Because a large proportion of the Labour Party membership are the same as Corbyn (I speak from 20+ years bitter experience). Young or old, they share the same political ideology.
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I can understand that, but the guy is obviously incompetent to the core. I mean come on, you're in the opposition and the ones in power are about to commit a political suicide and you help them avert the fallout from it? Seriously?

At least he might get another vote of no confidence and lose the party election afterwards. I'm afraid that by then it could be too late to avoid the worst though.

McHrozni
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It's a lost cause. Anyone speaking against Brexit is portrayed as some kind of treasonous traitor.

All that's left is a rearguard action to try and mitigate the damage.

Dunkirk is a very apt comparison.
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I think we have all accepted this by now. That said and to use the Dunkirk comparison, what Corbyn is doing is akin to refusing to commandeer fishing boats for evacuation, so they can be ready if another crisis erupts.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
How did he win the Labour election twice is beyond me. You Brits are weird.
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Members of the Labour Party (who get to choose the leader of the Labour Party) are not even representative of Labour Party voters much less the UK population at large. Tony Blair was something of and aberration (though Neil Kinnock and John Smith prepared the ground) and probably represented a desire to get back in power and reflected a change to the membership demographic with a more centreist tinge.

Labour Party members by and large are left-wingers many of (or in my experience most of) whom would rather the party spends decades in the political wilderness than compromise their political beliefs one iota.

My personal observation is that a large proportion are utopian idealists who fail to grasp that most people don't think like them and would melt their grandmothers down for the silver in their hair (thanks Pterry) for £1 off their Sky subscription. Tory Party members OTOH IMO tend to be more politically pragmatic - sometimes depressingly so :(
 
The Don said:
Members of the Labour Party (who get to choose the leader of the Labour Party) are not even representative of Labour Party voters much less the UK population at large. Tony Blair was something of and aberration (though Neil Kinnock and John Smith prepared the ground) and probably represented a desire to get back in power and reflected a change to the membership demographic with a more centreist tinge.

Labour Party members by and large are left-wingers many of (or in my experience most of) whom would rather the party spends decades in the political wilderness than compromise their political beliefs one iota.
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OK, but ensuring Tories pay their fair share of political capital for the damage Brexit will do to UK seems like a Socialist position to me.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
OK, but ensuring Tories pay their fair share of political capital for the damage Brexit will do to UK seems like a Socialist position to me.

McHrozni
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You may be right, but I was responding to your question about why Corbyn has won two leadership elections.

Remember though that Corbyn and his supporters are also pro-Brexit but for diametrically opposed reasons to the Tories and their naivety/principles/dogma/stupidity (delete as necessary) means that that they cannot go against their principles :mad:
 
The Don said:
You may be right, but I was responding to your question about why Corbyn has won two leadership elections.

Remember though that Corbyn and his supporters are also pro-Brexit but for diametrically opposed reasons to the Tories and their naivety/principles/dogma/stupidity (delete as necessary) means that that they cannot go against their principles :mad:
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I see. In that case I recommend you flee the Islands of Retards while your EU citizenship still allows you to. :o

McHrozni
 
The Don said:
Members of the Labour Party (who get to choose the leader of the Labour Party) are not even representative of Labour Party voters much less the UK population at large. Tony Blair was something of and aberration (though Neil Kinnock and John Smith prepared the ground) and probably represented a desire to get back in power and reflected a change to the membership demographic with a more centreist tinge.

Labour Party members by and large are left-wingers many of (or in my experience most of) whom would rather the party spends decades in the political wilderness than compromise their political beliefs one iota.

My personal observation is that a large proportion are utopian idealists who fail to grasp that most people don't think like them and would melt their grandmothers down for the silver in their hair (thanks Pterry) for £1 off their Sky subscription. Tory Party members OTOH IMO tend to be more politically pragmatic - sometimes depressingly so :(
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I'm not sure your caricature is entirely fair, though my experience in Rushcliffe (middle-class utopia) may be atypical. Labour party members are fairly pragmatic, but their influence has been out-weighed in recent votes by militant union leaders and the weird "vote for a quid" thing that the disastrous Milliband introduced. I've not seen any research regarding entryism affecting the votes Corbyn won, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant factor in the results.
 
Filippo Lippi said:
I'm not sure your caricature is entirely fair, though my experience in Rushcliffe (middle-class utopia) may be atypical. Labour party members are fairly pragmatic, but their influence has been out-weighed in recent votes by militant union leaders and the weird "vote for a quid" thing that the disastrous Milliband introduced. I've not seen any research regarding entryism affecting the votes Corbyn won, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant factor in the results.
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I suspect Don was traumatized by British politics and Labour party so many times it turned him into an utter cynic :o

I hope he's overdoing it.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
I suspect Don was traumatized by British politics and Labour party so many times it turned him into an utter cynic :o

I hope he's overdoing it.

McHrozni
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So do I, but I fear that I am not :o

The whole process is turning into some kind of appalling theatre.

The latest is May insisting that the devolved parliaments will have a say in Brexit and simultaneously denying them a say because their views do not align with hers :mad:
 
Interesting choice of words from No10 recently the Bexit majority was 1.2 million and is “a clear mandate of the people”. The petition for stopping the state visit by Trump was 1.5 million when I looked yesterday but that is only a “populist gesture”. 1984 doublespeak anyone?
 
The Don said:
So do I, but I fear that I am not :o

The whole process is turning into some kind of appalling theatre.

The latest is May insisting that the devolved parliaments will have a say in Brexit and simultaneously denying them a say because their views do not align with hers :mad:
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Say one thing and do another has been Tory policy for as long as I remember especially when it comes to the 'regions'.
 
McHrozni said:
How did he win the Labour election twice is beyond me. You Brits are weird.
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It was because the other candidates were even worse than him. Hard to believe but true. Most of the current Labour MPs are lightweight career politicians that the public can see right through.

There are doubtless some good potential leaders too, but none of those thought their chances of becoming Prime Minister were realistic and did not want the poison chalice of leading a disunited rabble of a Labour party to yet another election defeat - after which they would be replaced by a new leader anyway.
 
Greebo said:
Interesting choice of words from No10 recently the Bexit majority was 1.2 million and is “a clear mandate of the people”. The petition for stopping the state visit by Trump was 1.5 million when I looked yesterday but that is only a “populist gesture”. 1984 doublespeak anyone?
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No. Because if a few million sign a petition that still leaves overwhelmingly more millions that haven't signed the petition.
 
ceptimus said:
No. Because if a few million sign a petition that still leaves overwhelmingly more millions that haven't signed the petition.
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By that measure... Millions didn't vote for Brexit either

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Re the questions above about the petition being different from the referendum. The difference is obvious. In the referendum, those that could be bothered to vote could vote one way or the other. Petitions only allow sufficiently motivated people to 'vote' in one direction - so it is just the tiny minority of activists on a particular issue that 'vote'.

If the whole country were forced to vote, then probably a majority would be in support of Trump (as polls in the USA show is the case there). We're just hearing the shrieking voices of a vocal minority of Trump opponents and the echoes of those voices covered by media who have nothing more interesting to report on right now.
 
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Darat said:
And many millions didn't vote in the referendum so what's the actual difference?
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It would be reasonable to interpret the results of Brexit referendum that while 37.5% of electorate wants to leave the EU, 62.5% does not, so there is a clear mandate for Bremain.

McHrozni
 
The Don said:
Members of the Labour Party (who get to choose the leader of the Labour Party) are not even representative of Labour Party voters much less the UK population at large. Tony Blair was something of and aberration (though Neil Kinnock and John Smith prepared the ground) and probably represented a desire to get back in power and reflected a change to the membership demographic with a more centreist tinge.

Labour Party members by and large are left-wingers many of (or in my experience most of) whom would rather the party spends decades in the political wilderness than compromise their political beliefs one iota.

My personal observation is that a large proportion are utopian idealists who fail to grasp that most people don't think like them and would melt their grandmothers down for the silver in their hair (thanks Pterry) for £1 off their Sky subscription. Tory Party members OTOH IMO tend to be more politically pragmatic - sometimes depressingly so :(
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The current Labour party system of one member one vote has only been in use for two leadership elections so it's a mischaracterisation to claim that the Blair and Brown were representative of the Labour party membership (Blair got about 58% of the membership vote, Brown ran unopposed and Corbyn got 50%).

The Labour party, until the Collins reforms, worked very hard to ensure that the ordinary member didn't have too much of a say and the leadership seems to have been shocked to discover that there were Socialists in the membership when the old electoral college system was done away with.

Filippo Lippi said:
I'm not sure your caricature is entirely fair, though my experience in Rushcliffe (middle-class utopia) may be atypical. Labour party members are fairly pragmatic, but their influence has been out-weighed in recent votes by militant union leaders and the weird "vote for a quid" thing that the disastrous Milliband introduced. I've not seen any research regarding entryism affecting the votes Corbyn won, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't a significant factor in the results.
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If Corbyn had run against a single opponent from the centre/right of the party the membership vote would probably have been tied. Corbyn overwhelmingly won the "registered supporters" vote (the pound a punt mob - over 80% of them voted for him) but also won the affiliated members vote (the old Trade Union and Socialist Societies votes). Even taking out the registered supporters Corbyn would still have won with the membership and affiliated votes, even running against a single rival.
 
McHrozni said:
It would be reasonable to interpret the results of Brexit referendum that while 37.5% of electorate wants to leave the EU, 62.5% does not, so there is a clear mandate for Bremain.

McHrozni
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Why do you assume that those that didn't vote supported Remain? It would be equally valid (that is to say invalid) to assume they supported Leave - which would then give a majority of over 63% for leave.
 
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