Disgraceful! Richard Spencer Sucker-Punched While Giving Interview

theprestige said:
OK, I can see how that might not be special pleading. It puts Nazism right up there with evading due process and silencing speech with violence, as things antithetical to American ideals. Which puts DO squarely into slightly exceptional punching category of second-class citizens. Should I tape my knuckles and ready my vigilante mask?

And now we're right back to special pleading. It's not that we should turn a blind eye as a society. It's that DO turns a blind eye out of personal taste. And that then gives us all license to punch each other for whatever reason we wish. Due process be damned.
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You're focused on this special pleading line a bit too heavily. Our legal system is full of exceptions and caveats. Your point about vigilantism I can buy, as I do believe retribution and justice stand apart in terms of a feeling of validation for the society that chooses that latter (builds trust with public institutions).

Perhaps a legally proscribed Due Process that tosses fascists in a stockade. Seems fitting. I bet we could even get it to pay for itself by charging customers to punch them. I hear Republicans like revenue neutral bills. The Self-Funding Nazi Stockade Punching Gallery Budgetary Reconciliation Act of 2017. I'm calling my Congressman right now! I will update this thread when it has a sponsor to ask you all to call yours as well :9.

Even a Nazi has rights, if he acts within the law. Not even a Nazi hunter has rights, if he acts outside the law.
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I am fairly certain there are healthy democracies not descending into dystopian conditions that say the Nazi has no right to spew Nazi views.

ETA: I will show my dedication to Equal Protection, as well, by adding that non-Nazis should also not spew Nazi views.

Here in Trumpistan we let the Nazis have their say and just look at us now!

It's been argued that even peaceful, lawful advocacy of the Nazi program is enough to strip someone of their human rights.
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I'm sorry, "peaceful, lawful advocacy" of a worldview where it's ok to designate circumstances of birth as a legitimate cause for inflicting torture, gruesome scientific experimentation, and mass murder?

Does not compute for me, just can't do it.

The Human Right (" ") to call for the violation of others human rights? See my issue?

I would argue that by the same rubric, endorsing vigilantism should be enough to strip DO of those same rights.
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Covered above.

Still not giving any ground on not feeling bad about it, though.

What can I say, I like a good comeuppance.

Lots of bullies in my youth, thing is after they get popped in the nose, this is their tune. They go right to the teacher/counselor/principal and tell a tale of woe where their victim is the one who 'took it too far.'

I get the high-minded principles, don't get me wrong. Then there's the street level view of life where you don't give a horrific, socially corrosive worldview one inch. Ever.

In summary: Nazis can eat a bag of dicks. Any questions? :9
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
So no, Nazis get no quarter. You give them an inch, they'll take a mile, then complain they can't possibly be expected to get along with just the inch you gave them and they need another inch (well, two really, but they'll settle for one...I mean unless you've got two...do you have two?).
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Can we punch people we think are Nazis too?
 
Noztradamus said:
Can we punch people we think are Nazis too?
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Well, this is why I say that I do, in fact, prefer a proper Due Process. This way if one wishes to engage in Nazi punching, there is a proper system for doing so and one need not worry about mistakenly punching a non-Nazi who may merely be spouting Nazi rhetoric as a result of mistakenly taking expired anti-depressants or other behaviors that can sometimes lead to advocating for the mass slaughter of entire swathes of human population by accident.

:9
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Well, this is why I say that I do, in fact, prefer a proper Due Process. This way if one wishes to engage in Nazi punching, there is a proper system for doing so and one need not worry about mistakenly punching a non-Nazi who may merely be spouting Nazi rhetoric as a result of mistakenly taking expired anti-depressants or other behaviors that can sometimes lead to advocating for the mass slaughter of entire swathes of human population by accident.

:9
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You are not doing your own argument any favours here.

Spencer -to my knowledge- has not advocated for any of this and was in the process of explaining that he's not a Neo-Nazi when he was punched.

There are a lot of flavours of philosophy on the political right. These are then conveniently called Fascism by the intellectually lazy, which is then identified with it's most extreme outlier: Nazism. This is associated with war, genocide, human experiments. all that is then projected back on Spencer (and soon Trump supporters) and used as a justification to use violence against them.

Well, two can play that game: One in five college professors in the US sympathise with Marxism. An ideology that I associate with farm collectivisation, dispossession of the middle class, random arrests, cultural revolution, death camps and 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

As I imagine the Antifa sucker-puncher not working himself through 50 hours of Richard Spencer podcasts and articles to familiarise himself with all the shades of grey. I'm now getting a roll of quarters as a fistload and break Noam Chomsky's jaw.

Chomsky's an Anarcho-Syndicalist? What's that? Another word for commie? Let's not split hairs here.

And here's my favourite example of vigilante justice:

Doctor driven out of home by vigilantes


Self-styled vigilantes attacked the home of a hospital paediatrician after apparently confusing her professional title with the word "paedophile", it emerged yesterday.
Dr Yvette Cloete, a specialist registrar in paediatric medicine at the Royal Gwent hospital in Newport, was forced to flee her house after vandals daubed it with graffiti in the middle of the night.
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People be dumb. Mobs be dumber.
 
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Foolmewunz said:
Please stop saying that. There were no polls. You're getting that from someone's interpretation of history. The Weimar Republic had no mechanisms (or insufficient mechanisms) to assure its continuation. It was not without support, though.
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It's a TvTropes saying for highly unpopular government.
 
Eddie Dane said:
You are not doing your own argument any favours here.

Spencer -to my knowledge- has not advocated for any of this and was in the process of explaining that he's not a Neo-Nazi when he was punched.

There are a lot of flavours of philosophy on the political right. These are then conveniently called Fascism by the intellectually lazy, which is then identified with it's most extreme outlier: Nazism. This is associated with war, genocide, human experiments. all that is then projected back on Spencer (and soon Trump supporters) and used as a justification to use violence against them.

Well, two can play that game: One in five college professors in the US sympathise with Marxism. An ideology that I associate with farm collectivisation, dispossession of the middle class, random arrests, cultural revolution, death camps and 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

As I imagine the Antifa sucker-puncher not working himself through 50 hours of Richard Spencer podcasts and articles to familiarise himself with all the shades of grey. I'm now getting a roll of quarters as a fistload and break Noam Chomsky's jaw.

Chomsky's an Anarcho-Syndicalist? What's that? Another word for commie? Let's not split hairs here.

And here's my favourite example of vigilante justice:

Doctor driven out of home by vigilantes





People be dumb. Mobs be dumber.
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I know my humor is dry sometimes, but I'm in a pretty comical mode tonight so what gives? :9

I already explained a ways back that my personal thoughts on the appropriateness of Nazi punching are not necessarily applicable to the incident in question.

I'll see what I can do about working up some tears over the soon-to-be oppressed Trump supporters.

Can't promise anything!
 
theprestige said:
OK, I can see how that might not be special pleading. It puts Nazism right up there with evading due process and silencing speech with violence, as things antithetical to American ideals. Which puts DO squarely into slightly exceptional punching category of second-class citizens. Should I tape my knuckles and ready my vigilante mask?

And now we're right back to special pleading. It's not that we should turn a blind eye as a society. It's that DO turns a blind eye out of personal taste. And that then gives us all license to punch each other for whatever reason we wish. Due process be damned.

Even a Nazi has rights, if he acts within the law. Not even a Nazi hunter has rights, if he acts outside the law.

It's been argued that even peaceful, lawful advocacy of the Nazi program is enough to strip someone of their human rights.

I would argue that by the same rubric, endorsing vigilantism should be enough to strip DO of those same rights.
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Agreed, Delphic Oracle's personal standard makes it difficult to justify. Nazi thought is abhorrent to every principle and law the U.S. is based on, so societally it occupies a unique position. Its advocates can arguably be endorsing an overthrow of government, and their attackers preserving the very fabric of the Union (cue patriotic music softly in background). You are correct in observing that legally, it endorses vigilantism and fails for due process. But I think that in rare, universally agreed circumstances, there can be a wink-and-nod agreement to behave...extrajudicially.
 
Eddie Dane said:
You are not doing your own argument any favours here.

Spencer -to my knowledge- has not advocated for any of this and was in the process of explaining that he's not a Neo-Nazi when he was punched.

There are a lot of flavours of philosophy on the political right. These are then conveniently called Fascism by the intellectually lazy, which is then identified with it's most extreme outlier: Nazism. This is associated with war, genocide, human experiments. all that is then projected back on Spencer (and soon Trump supporters) and used as a justification to use violence against them.

Well, two can play that game: One in five college professors in the US sympathise with Marxism. An ideology that I associate with farm collectivisation, dispossession of the middle class, random arrests, cultural revolution, death camps and 100 million deaths in the 20th century.

As I imagine the Antifa sucker-puncher not working himself through 50 hours of Richard Spencer podcasts and articles to familiarise himself with all the shades of grey. I'm now getting a roll of quarters as a fistload and break Noam Chomsky's jaw.

Chomsky's an Anarcho-Syndicalist? What's that? Another word for commie? Let's not split hairs here.

And here's my favourite example of vigilante justice:

Doctor driven out of home by vigilantes







People be dumb. Mobs be dumber.
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I agree with your general point,but Spencer being a Neo Nazi is pretty undebatable, given a lot of what he has said and done in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Spencer
 
MostlyDead said:
Agreed, Delphic Oracle's personal standard makes it difficult to justify. Nazi thought is abhorrent to every principle and law the U.S. is based on, so societally it occupies a unique position. Its advocates can arguably be endorsing an overthrow of government, and their attackers preserving the very fabric of the Union (cue patriotic music softly in background). You are correct in observing that legally, it endorses vigilantism and fails for due process. But I think that in rare, universally agreed circumstances, there can be a wink-and-nod agreement to behave...extrajudicially.
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Fair enough.

But we're not talking about "rare, universally agreed circumstances". We're talking about a masked vigilante punching Richard Spencer in the street.

And while Delphic Oracle tries to fall back on his hypothetical Universal Nazi villain as justification, he also equivocates Nazis with "Trump supporters", making his position philosophically, morally, and socially abhorrent. Appealing to a "dry" sense of humor doesn't help his case either.
 
Eddie Dane said:
You are not doing your own argument any favours here.

Spencer -to my knowledge- has not advocated for any of this and was in the process of explaining that he's not a Neo-Nazi when he was punched.
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And leading a room full of supporters in a proper Heil Trump! with the good old fashioned straight armed salute means nothing?

On the other side he is supportive of the shooting of the mosque in Quabec City, a beautiful city that shouldn't have mosques in it.
 
theprestige said:
Fair enough.

But we're not talking about "rare, universally agreed circumstances". We're talking about a masked vigilante punching Richard Spencer in the street.

And while Delphic Oracle tries to fall back on his hypothetical Universal Nazi villain as justification, he also equivocates Nazis with "Trump supporters", making his position philosophically, morally, and socially abhorrent. Appealing to a "dry" sense of humor doesn't help his case either.
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Yes why would anyone think that making nazi salutes while saying heil trump would possibly think the guy is a nazi? He is a much more basic form of white supremacist arguing for the mass murder of the untermensch.

It is like those people who make the argument that the KKK is not a racist organization. Clearly you would be reluctant to consider them racist merely for their past actions, just like he isn't a Nazi no matter how much he really likes and acts like one.
 
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The Big Dog said:
evidence?
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"Following the attack, Spencer wrote on Twitter: 'Why are there mosques in Quebec City, one of North America's most beautiful cities?'
He continued 'It's almost as if French Canada has the same problem as France with Muslims', before adding 'refugees welcome, eh'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-anger-tweet-Quebec-attack.html#ixzz4XHKKvAVK
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4171436/Richard-Spencer-prompts-anger-tweet-Quebec-attack.html
 
ponderingturtle said:
And leading a room full of supporters in a proper Heil Trump! with the good old fashioned straight armed salute means nothing?

On the other side he is supportive of the shooting of the mosque in Quabec City, a beautiful city that shouldn't have mosques in it.
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I'm not saying he is nice.

He's extreme right. An ethnic nationalist who dodges the question how this ethno state would be established (an ex-Alt-Right guy actually stalked him on Twitter, and then at events to get him to give a clear answer on that issue. Spencer eventually told him to scram. So don't expect him to ever answer that). He once described Pinochet as ' a wonderful man'.

But that is not the point

Physically attacking them:
-Gives them publicity
-Leads to escalation
-Could hurt innocents in cases of mistaken identity
-The definition of Nazi (a very specific ideology)will get ever broader.

Etc etc.

This Internet Tough guy stuff is the road to hell.

This is how you deal with bigots.
 
Eddie Dane said:
I'm not saying he is nice.
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Do you accept classifying him as a Nazi? That is what I was objecting to, the people who say he isn't really a nazi.


He didn't seem to mind making reference to them while doing the salute associated with them.
 
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