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Merged Terror attack on German Christmas market

Yes, with a death toll of any single decade no more than half of that of a common Islamic terrorist attack that occurs on a weekly basis (several times a year in the West), after I mentioned the severity of the attacks or campaign needs to be taken into account as well.

Only if you ignore the deaths caused by Christian terror groups in central Africa (and if you can include the "non-international" Islamic attacks, which you are in your weekly accounting there, then you can include those too).

But you made it patently clear that a terrorist attack that kills no one is just as bad as a terrorist attack that kills a hundred.

I happen to believe that they're both similarly bad, true (because the point of terrorism is the terror...it's in the name and everything). But that's an entirely separate issue from my statement above, despite your attempt to link them together so you can try to avoid them all together.

Sure, Christianity has it's problems there too. Unless you're going to name schools bombed by Christian anti-education fanatics however, you have precisely zero case.

The LRA, as I mentioned before, have attacked and destroyed schools, kidnapping the students to be child soldiers and sex slaves (they often go into villages specifically demand the locations of schools), and have even ambushed school buses and killed everyone on them.

My linking of the WND article to show that the fundamentalist Christian opposition to secular education has ideological roots that exist today even in the West.

If you think that seek professional help.

Awww, I'm touched at your concern for my well-being.

One woman with clear psychiatric problems is prevented from receiving proper care, dies as a result and Scientology is as bad as ISIS?

I never said Scientology was as bad as ISIS (they're just a minor cult moneyfarm). But the issues with deaths caused by Scientology, as my link and its associated sources show, go beyond merely just Lisa McPherson.

The last paragraph of the paper you posted mentions:

"it is remarkable that for scores of instances that could be cited for persecutions directed against the Jains, there is hardly any single instance of retaliation by the latter".

And you skipped over all the following to get there, apparently:

"A war may be fought for defending one's land or religion. Thieves may be killed in an encounter."

"Non-killing cannot interfere with one's duties. The king, or the judge, has to hang a murderer. The murderer's act is the negation of the right of murdered. The king's or the judge's order is the negation of this negation, and is enjoined by Jainism as a duty. Similarly the soldier's killing on the battlefield. It is only prejudiced and garbled accounts of Jainism that have led to its being misunderstood."

"King Atibala is described as a devout Jaina (jinepadapankaja-bharamara) in the story of Sukumarasvamnin by Poet Santinatha. At the same time, it is said that he took up the sword for protecting his land and his people (Sukumarasvamicharitam, 1. 79-80). Somadeva in his Nitivakyamtam argues that a king who does not maintain his army properly fails in his primary duties. In Janna's Yasodharacarite, the sword of king Yashodhara is described as being continually washed by the blood of his enemies."

"Wars cannot always be for the defensive. Jaina ethics has allowed kings to go out of their lands and annex fresh territories. Mention may be made here of the digvijata by Bharata in Rathnakaravarani's Bharatesa Vaibhava. Vharata worships and involves the blessings of Jina before before taking his army out of the capital for conquests."

"Jainism was not only patronized by almost all royal families of Karnatak, both major and minor, some of the rulers were themselves its devoted followers. It is recorded in the inscriptions belonging to the Ganga dynasty that it was Simhanandi, a Jaina Mink, who inspired Madhava to establish the dynasty. The advice given by this celebrated teacher is believed to contain some basic moral precepts prescribed for Jaina kings. He is said to have advised him not to run away from the battle even in times of danger. Rulers who succeeded Madhava patronized the religion to a great extent and a few of the rulers devoted themselves to its cause. Marasimha was one such who ruled during the end of the tenth century. One of the inscriptions describes in length his voluntary death by the vow of sallekhana [suicide by stopping all intake of food and drink]. He is praised as a great warrior who fought many battles and conquered many fots. It is further stated that he dedicated most of the wealth which he amassed through conquests to the cause of his religion."

Judaism is compatibly sized to Jain, but you have no trouble bringing it up later on. It's rather funny how your standards shift based on what you want to claim.

My standards didn't shift, and you yourself admit you understand why I included Judaism literally right after you typed this:

Still, you said all religions, without any qualifiers.

See?

You might argue that 20 thousand people is indeed too few to count (although again, all religions is all religions, even Jedi would count), but 7 million is plenty. Jainism is a religion of millions who, in the past, were renown for their skills of conquest and immense levels of religious tolerance and restraint. They directly disprove your claims.

If a Muslim caliph was described as having his sword described as "being continually washed by the blood of his enemies", or as dedicating the vast amounts of wealth he gained through conquests to the cause of Islam, you'd be jumping up and down about how it confirmed your views.

It's funny how 7 million Jain is too tiny to count, but ~15 million of Jews is plenty and should be included, isn't it?

No, it's not funny at all, since (as you admitted), you did specify all religions.

The total number of deaths by Jews in the US in 25 years is 1/4 of the single Islamic terrorist attack in the OP, which by the way was radically reduced in severity by built-in automatic breaks on the truck. Why do you refuse to touch this part of the subject? It is because it makes Islam look so horrific, isn't it? Looking away doesn't make the problem go away.

No, it's because death tolls can be random (two different attacks that are otherwise similar can end up with radically different death tolls - the 1993 WTC truck bombing killed only 6 people, while the 1995 Murraugh Building truck bombing killed 168), and a terrorist attack that kills a handful of people is still a terrorist attack. Which is why the FBI list showing that Jews, like Muslims, are responsible for a higher percentage of terror attacks in the US than their percentage of the US population lists all attacks, regardless of casualties.

Like with your other criteria, the "death toll" metric is used by you solely so you can dismiss the terrorist attacks caused by followers of other religions and pretend that therefore they don't matter because they're inconvenient for your thesis. And then you accuse me of refusing to acknowledge attacks (despite the rather obvious flaw in the assertion being that I quite openly do acknowledge all terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Islam.

If there's anyone here looking away from religiously-motivated terror attacks to try and make the problem they represent go away, it's you, who is working quite diligently to handwave away any and all acts of terrorism which aren't Islamic.

No, I believe al-Azhar ruled that child marriage was impermissible in Islam due to personal convictions or convenience or foreign pressure. I said as much earlier. I and am unable to distinguish between the factors. Additionally it could be any combination of the factors as well, and there could be other factors unknown to me (corruption?) at play as well.

That's a whole lot of effort putting into finding some way, any way, to try and dismiss something that you declared couldn't happen even thought it actually did happen.

It's a bit of a far cry to claim that religious tolerance and peace on one hand and massive religious repression and perpetual war on unbelievers on the other are a result of two competing interpretations.

Not really. The same religion that produced Torquemada also produced Fred Rogers, after all.

Two utterly dissimilar religions whose only common point is that they pretend to follow the same book are not issues of interpretation.

No, that's pretty much exactly what it is. If Jaina, a religion that's supposed to have total nonviolence and an abhorrence of killing as one of its core precepts, can venerate as devout conquering kings with invasive armies whose swords are reputed to be covered in the blood of their enemies, I have no idea why you're so shocked to the point of refusing to accept that other religions can be equally schizophrenic.

My post didn't imply you did. That said, given how desperate you are to defend Islam from any and all criticism, I don't believe you. You definitely harbor a deep emotional attachment to Islam itself. Whether this is because you're a Muslim committing Taqiyya to try to convert unbelievers or just because you grew up in a Muslim family, committed apostasy and still believe Islam is great is something only you can know.

I'm keeping a tally of the number of posters here who accuse me of being a Seekrit Muslim practicing taqiyya because I don't agree with them that Islam is the Worstest Thing Ever and ISIS Is The Only True Islam.

Well, again, if you consider 'scholars' have the exclusive right to determine on the spot what Islam is, regardless of it's scriptures and traditions or essentially anything else

"On the spot" may be a bit much, but yeah, that's how religions and scriptures kinda work - adherents of the religion, especially those who dedicate their lives to the study of it and its scriptures, produce interpretations of that religion and those scriptures. And they not only far more often disagree with each other than agree, the interpretations they produce run the entire spectrum so that positions that are outwardly utterly diametrically opposed can be extracted from the same set of scriptures and traditions, and so are still part of the same religion.

And yet, French didn't retaliate against Algerians in France, but are just as bad as Algerians, because they didn't fully accept them as French non-French?

The French did a whole lot of stuff to the Algerians in the years before the final declaration of independence (that whole bloody war thing, remember?). Why you keep ignoring that and harping on "retaliation" solely for what happened to the pieds-noirs is a mystery to me.

Okay, I lied. It's not a mystery at all - it's so you can absolve the French for their actions and focus only on what the Algerians did (despite the fact that I've told you that the Algerian War of Independence involved a continuing series of back and forth atrocities committed by both sides, so I'm not even absolving the Algerians for what they did), since your goal is to paint Islam as uniquely violent, and anything which contradicts that thesis is to be ignored or handwaved away at all costs.

I see you're not willing to answer the question. Let's move to something easier - the same passage also explicitly tells Muslims they aren't obligated to go to Hajj if they're unable to, and lists legitimate reasons for not going. Do you agree that this passage is a reason some Muslims are able to make the conscious decision not to go on Hajj as a result of this passage?

I'm sure there are (there's a lot of Muslims out there, and almost as many interpretations). However, the Muslim who wrote that article quite notably did not use that as his justification, instead citing the actions of the Saudis and the desire to help the Syrian refugees.

That's entirely your fabrication. I never said that Hajj is The Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To, which you had to know because I explicitly mentioned the passage also allows Muslims not to attend it in certain circumstances (the contents of which are irrelevant for this discussion), and you furthermore were fully aware it did, because you warned me about that for reasons I don't understand nor particularly care about. This is your straw man, nothing more.

Your entire purpose in bringing up the hajj passages in the Qur'an was because you were trying to use it in an analogy to "prove" your assertions that the Qur'an tells Muslims to be terrorists and Muslims have to do what the Qur'an tells them so therefore Muslims have to be terrorists. That's why you only brought up the hajj thing in response to Archie saying "Then we will move onto your points about terrorism being what Allah wants Muslims to do (i.e. you know the mind of an imaginary being)", because if (to you) the Qur'an clearly says Allah wants Muslims to go on hajj and Muslims have to follow that command, and the Qur'an (again, to you) clearly says Allah wants Muslims to be terrorists, then therefore Muslims have to follow that command too and be terrorists.

Which fails miserably as an argument not just because it begs multiple questions, but because if the hajj is not a Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To, that kind of undercuts your argument that terrorism is also a Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To.

Again, the passage tells Muslims to go to Hajj, unless they legitimately aren't able to. Do you agree this results in some Muslims going to Hajj and some make a conscious decision not to, because they fit the criteria that tells them they are allowed not to go? Millions of Muslims follow this passage every year, either by going on Hajj or abstaining from it because the passage tells them they may abstain in certain circumstances. Do you agree they do both at least in part of this passage?

It's really not that hard of a question you know.

And here you're still trying it. Except, as both Archie and I have been trying to tell you, not only are Muslims not automatons who mindlessly obey what (you think, at least) the Qur'an tells them, even that passage you think it's a totally clear-cut and straightforward direct command contains a lot of complexities which mean that the vast majority of the world's Muslims don't even follow that command.

Which is why, as Archie said, your argument failed at the first hurdle.
 
Unfortunately the source of that story is the free thought project, which is highly dubious. (And it, shocker, appears that they misrepresented what was going on). Just part of the fake news that is so in fashion at the moment.

Not nearly as fake as the time Islam-haters lied about an anti-ISIS march in Dearborn (near where my parents used to live) to protest the San Bernardino shootings by saying it was a pro-ISIS march.

While the march in Matthew Best's link wasn't specifically organized to protest against ISIS, the Arbaeen march has kind of become a thing where marchers additionally protest against ISIS. And this has been a thing for a while now, where Arbaeen marchers specifically include anti-ISIS protests as part of their march, such as this one in London.
 
Unfortunately the source of that story is the free thought project, which is highly dubious. (And it, shocker, appears that they misrepresented what was going on). Just part of the fake news that is so in fashion at the moment.

It's a yearly festival which isn't even a purely religious event. The attendees are overwhelmingly Shia Muslims, but Christians, Yazidi and Sunnis also attend. It's a festivity marking the passing of a grandchild of Mohamed, which they consider a pivotal moment in history or something.

ISIS has repeatedly attacked the festivities in the past, so anyone attending is implicitly defying them. However, seeing the event predates existence of the entity known as ISIS by over 13 centuries, it is a bit much to call it a "march against ISIS".

McHrozni
 
Only if you ignore the deaths caused by Christian terror groups in central Africa (and if you can include the "non-international" Islamic attacks, which you are in your weekly accounting there, then you can include those too).

Those are the ones you quoted. If you're going to claim Christian terrorism in Central Africa is anywhere near that caused by Islam, you need to provide evidence.

I happen to believe that they're both similarly bad, true (because the point of terrorism is the terror...it's in the name and everything). But that's an entirely separate issue from my statement above, despite your attempt to link them together so you can try to avoid them all together.

Severity of attacks was always front and center of my arguments. The only reason why I focus on frequency to any appreciable degree is because this is the one statistic most favorable to Islam, which still shows Islam itself is a problem.

You have twisted standards to the point of obscenity to favor Islam, and Islam still comes out as worse than others. If that doesn't tell you Islam is a problem, nothing will - and the problem is your bias, and nothing else.

Awww, I'm touched at your concern for my well-being.

Yeah, I've known that ever since you started using a well-meaning warning as ammunition for a smear campaign.

I never said Scientology was as bad as ISIS (they're just a minor cult moneyfarm). But the issues with deaths caused by Scientology, as my link and its associated sources show, go beyond merely just Lisa McPherson.

So, um, are you now saying that not all religions are equally bad?
Your whole house (of cards) stood on that premise alone. I'm somewhat taken aback, do you want to backpedal a bit maybe?

And you skipped over all the following to get there, apparently:

A religion that explicitly permits taking up arms to defend yourself and sometimes permits wars of conquest is as bad as ISIS?

That's a new low. Even for you.

If a Muslim caliph was described as having his sword described as "being continually washed by the blood of his enemies", or as dedicating the vast amounts of wealth he gained through conquests to the cause of Islam, you'd be jumping up and down about how it confirmed your views.

Well, you did summarize the life of Mohamed pretty well.

Your point?

No, it's because death tolls can be random (two different attacks that are otherwise similar can end up with radically different death tolls - the 1993 WTC truck bombing killed only 6 people, while the 1995 Murraugh Building truck bombing killed 168), and a terrorist attack that kills a handful of people is still a terrorist attack. Which is why the FBI list showing that Jews, like Muslims, are responsible for a higher percentage of terror attacks in the US than their percentage of the US population lists all attacks, regardless of casualties.

Luckily enough, we aren't comparing only two attacks, but a statistically fairly relevant number of them. If it were due to chance alone, Islamist attacks might have a particularly deadly incident here or there, but certainly not two truly deadly attacks with dozens killed in a decade.

Well, in Europe they managed two in a year, two years in a row.

Your careful crafted standard to exclude Islam fails utterly.

If there's anyone here looking away from religiously-motivated terror attacks to try and make the problem they represent go away, it's you, who is working quite diligently to handwave away any and all acts of terrorism which aren't Islamic.

The only problem that is being handwaved away is Islam. Separatism is a known issue, it is being fought through different means, sometimes in a very effective manner that brings about a lasting peace (Northern Ireland). No one says we should ignore any of those, but you think we should ignore Islam, because it is not sufficiently worse than all others put together.

And then you call me biased :rolleyes:

Not really. The same religion that produced Torquemada also produced Fred Rogers, after all.

Insofar as Torquemada was a product of religion and not a product of holding several disunited kingdoms together in the face of adversity of course. 15th century Catholic Church was a systematic system of corruption and lechery, it is fairly difficult to find that justified in the scriptures. Not all religions are meaningless as you claim Islam to be. Indeed, Islam is far more meaningful than you make it up to be for the sake of desperately defending it.

No, that's pretty much exactly what it is. If Jaina, a religion that's supposed to have total nonviolence and an abhorrence of killing as one of its core precepts, can venerate as devout conquering kings with invasive armies whose swords are reputed to be covered in the blood of their enemies, I have no idea why you're so shocked to the point of refusing to accept that other religions can be equally schizophrenic.

The initial assertion is purely yours. Jain consider most forms of killing impermissible, but some are permitted - specifically to defend your land and sometimes to conquer new lands.

It's as schizophrenic as interpreting the 10 commandments as prohibiting murder, but not prohibiting killing someone in self-defense ... or indeed as schizophrenic as our current legal systems are, because they do distinguish between the two.

I'm keeping a tally of the number of posters here who accuse me of being a Seekrit Muslim practicing taqiyya because I don't agree with them that Islam is the Worstest Thing Ever and ISIS Is The Only True Islam.

Well, you do go out of your way to defend Islam from any and all criticism. You clearly have a very strong emotional attachment to the religion that evidently calls for your summary execution. The two are in sufficient conflict that it is reasonably likely one of the two statements you make is false.

"On the spot" may be a bit much, but yeah, that's how religions and scriptures kinda work - adherents of the religion, especially those who dedicate their lives to the study of it and its scriptures, produce interpretations of that religion and those scriptures. And they not only far more often disagree with each other than agree, the interpretations they produce run the entire spectrum so that positions that are outwardly utterly diametrically opposed can be extracted from the same set of scriptures and traditions, and so are still part of the same religion.

As I said earlier, if you consider Islam to be synonymous with "nothing", then your arguments holds water (but just barely). I consider you to be erring on that.

The French did a whole lot of stuff to the Algerians in the years before the final declaration of independence (that whole bloody war thing, remember?). Why you keep ignoring that and harping on "retaliation" solely for what happened to the pieds-noirs is a mystery to me.

Well, if there is a justified Muslim grievance towards the West for whatever, there is a more than justified of French exiles towards Algeria.

I'm sure there are (there's a lot of Muslims out there, and almost as many interpretations).

Oh good, finally.

Three verses back is a line which explicitly calls for fighting and killing unbelievers until they convert. If these two explain part of why Hajj happens and why some don't do the Hajj, then those verses explain why some Muslims kill unbelievers.

Your entire purpose in bringing up the hajj passages in the Qur'an was because you were trying to use it in an analogy to "prove" your assertions that the Qur'an tells Muslims to be terrorists and Muslims have to do what the Qur'an tells them so therefore Muslims have to be terrorists.

Yes, this is why I chose this specific passage. What of it?

That's why you only brought up the hajj thing in response to Archie saying "Then we will move onto your points about terrorism being what Allah wants Muslims to do (i.e. you know the mind of an imaginary being)", because if (to you) the Qur'an clearly says Allah wants Muslims to go on hajj and Muslims have to follow that command, and the Qur'an (again, to you) clearly says Allah wants Muslims to be terrorists, then therefore Muslims have to follow that command too and be terrorists.

Other than I know what an imaginary being is thinking, this is what I'm saying, yes. I don't claim to know what it is thinking, but I know what it has supposed to command it's believers.

Two of the commands that appear side by side are:
1. kill unbelievers
2. perform Hajj

The second is clearly venerated by hundreds of thousands of Muslims from all over the world to the point of a country limiting the number of Muslims who may attend. You need to prove the first one has no effect.

Good luck with that.

Which fails miserably as an argument not just because it begs multiple questions, but because if the hajj is not a Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To, that kind of undercuts your argument that terrorism is also a Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To.

Well, it's not The Thing That All Muslims Absolutely Positively Have To Do Because Their Holy Book Commands Them To, because the said book explicitly tells them who is exempt from Hajj. You even pointed it out for reasons I don't quite understand. Your argument falls apart so completely at this point I don't really have to address it any more.

And here you're still trying it. Except, as both Archie and I have been trying to tell you, not only are Muslims not automatons who mindlessly obey what (you think, at least) the Qur'an tells them, even that passage you think it's a totally clear-cut and straightforward direct command contains a lot of complexities which mean that the vast majority of the world's Muslims don't even follow that command.

Of course they aren't mindless automatons who automatically follow everything in the Koran. If they were the problem would shift from "Islam" to "all Muslims", and the solution would be straightforward. Messy, but straightforward.

That said, Islamis scriptures aren't all that complex. Once you cut out the meaningless crap about how great Allah is and the like, the remainder is pretty straightforward and gets you ISIS.

McHrozni
 
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Just to make it patently clear what I'm trying to prevent, it's events like these for starters:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/29/americas/quebec-mosque-shooting/index.html
(assuming it was an anti-Muslim terrorist attack as it appears to be)

Police can't stop all of them any more it can stop all Islamic terrorists.

McHrozni

I really hope you're not suggesting that Muslims, having failed to march through the streets in sufficient numbers* (which I'm sure would go over just swimmingly right now), are in some part responsible for this.

* As determined by the reigning authority on the subject
 
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I really hope you're not suggesting that Muslims, having failed to march through the streets in sufficient numbers (which I'm sure would go over just swimmingly right now) are in some part responsible for this.

No, I'm saying attacks like these (again, assuming it was an anti-Muslim terror attack) would be less likely if Muslims were seen as strongly opposed to Islamist terrorism. It has nothing to do with blame just with what can be done to prevent such attacks in the future.

Police can reduce the scope of the attack, it can reduce their frequency it can also reduce their severity, but no amount of police work can ever undo the core cause of the attack. For Islamists that is holy texts of Islam (among others) and for attacks against Muslims it is Islamist attacks. To effectively stop further attacks against Muslims you need to either effectively stop Islamist terrorist attacks (not currently possible), or at least make sure Muslim community is seen as truly opposed to their religion, however weird that sounds.

* As determined by the reigning authority on the subject

Why does it bother you so much I'm making the estimate anyway?

McHrozni
 
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No, I'm saying attacks like these (again, assuming it was an anti-Muslim terror attack) would be less likely if Muslims were seen as strongly opposed to Islamist terrorism. It has nothing to do with blame just with what can be done to prevent such attacks in the future.

If a person doesn't get the concept of "don't kill people who are innocent and mean you no harm" then I'm not sure the far more complex and symbolic gesture you propose is going to sink in.

Police can reduce the scope of the attack, it can reduce their frequency it can also reduce their severity, but no amount of police work can ever undo the core cause of the attack. For Islamists that is holy texts of Islam (among others) and for attacks against Muslims it is Islamist attacks. To effectively stop further attacks against Muslims you need to either effectively stop Islamist terrorist attacks (not currently possible), or at least make sure Muslim community is seen as truly opposed to their religion, however weird that sounds.

Or stop people from deciding that one individual's actions create a presumption of culpability and rationalization for murder of other persons.

How about if 10% of Americans must now engage in a sustained, very public campaign to condemn hostility and derision of our Muslim communities. There's only so much our immigration laws can do in terms of frequency and severity of attacks. It can't undo the core cause of the attacks, which is our attitude that wagging fingers in other people's faces is ok when 'they' (collectively) are wrong, but if we are criticized it's "but not all Americans!"

Why does it bother you so much I'm making the estimate anyway?

McHrozni

Because to a Muslim, your outside perspective that has not been asked for (and contains numerous examples of ignorance of certain nuances and challenges in the Muslim world) reeks of arrogance. There's a big ideological struggle going on between Saudi-backed violent Wahhabists and more secular, tolerant schools of thought.

Now, do you think it does the secular/tolerant side any favors to have outsiders waltzing in spouting criticism and condemnation? It gives fuel to the ultra-conservatives to say 'see, they hate you even as you try to appease them!' and for the supposedly enlightened, tolerant westerners to act this way might make one start to question whether this whole tolerance thing was a good idea.
 
If a person doesn't get the concept of "don't kill people who are innocent and mean you no harm" then I'm not sure the far more complex and symbolic gesture you propose is going to sink in.

That's just it, I'm positive they get the concept, they just don't believe Muslims in general mean them no harm.

If they didn't get the concept they would attack other constituencies at random. However, Muslims are the favorite bashing dolls of all deplorable parties, and they point out to Islamic terrorism and (perceived) Muslim indifference to Islamic terrorism. The first one can't be solved easily, but the latter can be.

Or stop people from deciding that one individual's actions create a presumption of culpability and rationalization for murder of other persons.

How about if 10% of Americans must now engage in a sustained, very public campaign to condemn hostility and derision of our Muslim communities. There's only so much our immigration laws can do in terms of frequency and severity of attacks. It can't undo the core cause of the attacks, which is our attitude that wagging fingers in other people's faces is ok when 'they' (collectively) are wrong, but if we are criticized it's "but not all Americans!"

You mean like mass public demonstrations against a "Muslim ban" by new US president? I think it serves well to remind everyone that Trump doesn't represent the views of every American, and as such demonstrations are a positive development. What about it?

Because to a Muslim, your outside perspective that has not been asked for (and contains numerous examples of ignorance of certain nuances and challenges in the Muslim world) reeks of arrogance. There's a big ideological struggle going on between Saudi-backed violent Wahhabists and more secular, tolerant schools of thought.

Now, do you think it does the secular/tolerant side any favors to have outsiders waltzing in spouting criticism and condemnation? It gives fuel to the ultra-conservatives to say 'see, they hate you even as you try to appease them!' and for the supposedly enlightened, tolerant westerners to act this way might make one start to question whether this whole tolerance thing was a good idea.

Do you think we're doing them favors by letting them take as much time as they want and as much leeway as they want, by insisting it's not Islam that's to blame and by refusing to even discuss Islam as a cause?

This isn't some sort of scientific debate where you only need to uncover the underlying truth. Everything that is to know is readily available in a few rather short books. The one thing they can agree on is that there can not be any new knowledge generated on the matter, because the religion explicitly rejects that. It's basically just reinventing the wheel a hundred times over again, both sides claim they're right because A says X or B says Y and they'll never come to a complete agreement, because one side wants their religion to be compatible with modern society (moderates) and the others want the society to be compatible with their religion (so-called extremists). Even if the moderates wins a round, the extremists will come back next generation in a never ending cycle.

There is no way to stop this that wouldn't be worse than the disease. In light of that we should at least protect the moderates from the rest, and the best way for that is that they make the distinction, and make it loud and clear. It is also the only way that will last anything longer than the immediate campaign.

McHrozni
 
When bad Muslims do things it's because they are Muslim, when white folks do things it's because bad Muslims made them do it.

That's a gross misrepresentation of my position. Some actions of Muslims are due to their Islamic faith and some actions of non-Muslims are a response to those actions. Thus far the severity of anti-Muslim response (even if this was a terrorist attack against Muslims) pales in comparison to Islamic violence. I'd like to at least keep it from getting worse and the best way to do so (that is achievable) is what I described.

McHrozni
 
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That's just it, I'm positive they get the concept, they just don't believe Muslims in general mean them no harm.

If they didn't get the concept they would attack other constituencies at random. However, Muslims are the favorite bashing dolls of all deplorable parties, and they point out to Islamic terrorism and (perceived) Muslim indifference to Islamic terrorism. The first one can't be solved easily, but the latter can be.

So you're proposing a grand gesture of some kind which appeals to the rationality and reason of people who you describe as having no such attributes?

You mean like mass public demonstrations against a "Muslim ban" by new US president? I think it serves well to remind everyone that Trump doesn't represent the views of every American, and as such demonstrations are a positive development. What about it?

I think it's inadequate.

Sound familiar?

Also, "sorry about the Muslim ban thing" but crickets on drone strikes, cruise missiles, half a dozen brutal dictators...oh, and destabilizing the region for decades that lead to their needing to become refugees to begin with.

We really know when to roll our sleeves up and get in the fight, don't we?

Do you think we're doing them favors by letting them take as much time as they want and as much leeway as they want, by insisting it's not Islam that's to blame and by refusing to even discuss Islam as a cause?

Do you think outside interference that gives fuel to the side we probably don't want to win is going to make it go faster?

I have no problem discussing Islam's struggles. I have a problem with non-Muslims who think they get to tell Muslims how they 'should' behave if 'they' want 'our' validation and approval. That and the pompous self-reverence of thinking people on the other side of the world dealing with troubles we couldn't dream of having to endure care about our opinions to begin with.

This isn't some sort of scientific debate where you only need to uncover the underlying truth. Everything that is to know is readily available in a few rather short books. The one thing they can agree on is that there can not be any new knowledge generated on the matter, because the religion explicitly rejects that. It's basically just reinventing the wheel a hundred times over again, both sides claim they're right because A says X or B says Y and they'll never come to a complete agreement, because one side wants their religion to be compatible with modern society (moderates) and the others want the society to be compatible with their religion (so-called extremists). Even if the moderates wins a round, the extremists will come back next generation in a never ending cycle.

You describe "the religion" in a monolithic statement, then turn around in the next few sentences and describe competing views about that very point. Can't be both, sorry.

As to the "never ending cycle" I wonder if similar statements were made during the Enlightenment/Reformation era. It took generations to sort out. Broad and tenuous coalitions across Europe enforced religious conformity back and forth. I tend to track a religion's "maturity" at the rate of 1 year per hundred. Christianity went through a rebellious, angsty teenager phase, too. Pretty much at the same point in its aging.

We're so self-important, thinking we'll shepherd this one along and help them sort it out quick. After all, we've done this before. Imagine yourself as a 20 year old trying to reason with an emotionally volatile 14 year old. Think that's going to go over really well? Even if you come to an agreement with them in principle, chances are 3 days later it's null and void (possibly 3 hours, it's been a while since I was a teenager).

It's going to take a while and I think, all things considered, we're doing a decent job of keeping most of the blood off of ourselves.

There is no way to stop this that wouldn't be worse than the disease. In light of that we should at least protect the moderates from the rest, and the best way for that is that they make the distinction, and make it loud and clear. It is also the only way that will last anything longer than the immediate campaign.

McHrozni

Ah, so 'we' protect 'them' by telling them what they should do and how.

That's probably not the way to deal with an angsty teenager, just saying.
 
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So you're proposing a grand gesture of some kind which appeals to the rationality and reason of people who you describe as having no such attributes?

All people have some amount rationality and reason, some just have less of it. Demonstrating the distinction, loudly and often, would peel away a small number of deplorables and a great many moderates who were simply convinced deplorables were right by the inappropriate Muslim reactions to attacks.

I think it's inadequate.

Sound familiar?

Not particularly, no. I never judged my opinion to be relevant about whether the effort is large enough or not. Given what is going on, it is evidently insufficient. The only part of my argument that is indeed my opinion (or estimate) is about how big the effort would have to be to work, but the present effort is evidently too small.

In other words, why do you think so and what would a grander effort achieve that this effort can not?

I answered those questions about Muslims, if you want to play ball I'm fine, but answer them as well.

Do you think outside interference that gives fuel to the side we probably don't want to win is going to make it go faster?

You do realize I'm calling for Muslims themselves to make the effort, right? It's not outside interference, in fact it's the complete opposite of outside interference. The idea came from outside, that's it. Anything less is basically ignoring them, which is what we've been doing for rather long, with abysmal results.

I have no problem discussing Islam's struggles. I have a problem with non-Muslims who think they get to tell Muslims how they 'should' behave if 'they' want 'our' validation and approval. That and the pompous self-reverence of thinking people on the other side of the world dealing with troubles we couldn't dream of having to endure care about our opinions to begin with.

You think that telling Muslims they shouldn't kill unbelievers is pompous self-reverence and we should abstain from doing so?

Wait, what?

You describe "the religion" in a monolithic statement, then turn around in the next few sentences and describe competing views about that very point. Can't be both, sorry.

Some aspects of Islam are monolithic - the reverence of the Koran and it's unusually high level of conservation for example. Almost all Muslims also ascribe to the tales of Mohameds' life and agree Mohamed was the code of conduct for Mankind too. They just differ on which of his conflicting actions are relevant and which ones are to be ignored.

It's not monolithic, but the common ground where religion is essentially monolithic is quite vast too.

As to the "never ending cycle" I wonder if similar statements were made during the Enlightenment/Reformation era. It took generations to sort out. Broad and tenuous coalitions across Europe enforced religious conformity back and forth. I tend to track a religion's "maturity" at the rate of 1 year per hundred. Christianity went through a rebellious, angsty teenager phase, too.

Islamic angsty teenager phase started within a decade of Mohameds' death and is still lasting to this day. What we see going on in Iraq today is just a modern variation of what happened immediately after Mohamed died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridda_wars

If Christianity had an angsty teenager phase, Islam was born an angsty teenager and has remained such until, well, teen years, where it is today.

Ah, so 'we' protect 'them' by telling them what they should do and how.

That's probably not the way to deal with an angsty teenager, just saying.

We aren't dealing with an angsty teenager, but with 1.6 billion people, some of whom are capable adults. Just saying.

McHrozni
 
That's a gross misrepresentation of my position. Some actions of Muslims are due to their Islamic faith and some actions of non-Muslims are a response to those actions. Thus far the severity of anti-Muslim response (even if this was a terrorist attack against Muslims) pales in comparison to Islamic violence. I'd like to at least keep it from getting worse and the best way to do so (that is achievable) is what I described.

McHrozni

Actions of non-Muslims are the responsibility of those who undertake them, same as Muslims. I'm sorry, but a bigot choosing to believe they're all bad because of their bigotry or just plain festering stupidity resulting in someone not being capable of assessing plausibility or likelihood of personal danger to themselves from different potential causes...yeah, none of that is the fault of a Muslim targeted by such people...or anyone targeted under similar such ignorance.

So we're back to "I swear I didn't run that guy over. It is true, though, that I directed my vehicle to transit the same physical space that he was inhabiting while moving at a fairly high rate of speed."

[Poe]I'm not saying it's women's fault they get raped, but they aren't doing themselves any favors by going out not covered up. How else can a person interpret that except she wants attention like that, amirite fellas?[/Poe]
 
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Actions of non-Muslims are the responsibility of those who undertake them, same as Muslims.

I never denied that. I told you this how many times over now?

The motive for such attacks is retaliation for Islamic terrorist attacks. Yes, they're a responsibility of the perpetrators, but the reason the perpetrator opts to attack Muslims is due to Islamic terrorism.

There is nothing in the motive that would imply the perpetrator should get any leniency. However it does demonstrate how further attacks can be prevented.

How on Earth is it bigoted to suggest that?

McHrozni
 
That's a gross misrepresentation of my position. Some actions of Muslims are due to their Islamic faith and some actions of non-Muslims are a response to those actions. Thus far the severity of anti-Muslim response (even if this was a terrorist attack against Muslims) pales in comparison to Islamic violence. I'd like to at least keep it from getting worse and the best way to do so (that is achievable) is what I described.

McHrozni

Your position is certainly gross but it has not been misrepresented. That is exactly what you have said here. And it's pathetic.
 

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