Ed Please tell me why you kill

[jaydeehess]

The particular insanity that is religious war is fully illustrated by Northern Ireland.
IF retribution, for retribution, for retribution, etc. solved anything then N.Ireland would have been a bastion of peace centuries ago.

 

[jaydeehess]

If you think only Islam is capable of such abominations. You are wrong. All religions do this.

From Wiki:

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in the United States reported in April 1995 that 90 percent of all the atrocities in the Yugoslav wars up to that point had been committed by Serb militants.[57] Most of these atrocities occurred in Bosnia. In 2004, the ICTY ruled that the Srebrenica massacre constituted genocide.[58] In May 2013, in a first-instance verdict, the ICTY convicted six Herzeg-Bosnia Officials for their participation in a joint criminal enterprise against Muslim population in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 

[Craig B]

The particular insanity that is religious war is fully illustrated by Northern Ireland.
IF retribution, for retribution, for retribution, etc. solved anything then N.Ireland would have been a bastion of peace centuries ago.

This history indicates something else important. Neither brand of Christianity in N Ireland effectively requires its adherents to murder people of other religions. The incidence of this varies over time, and reflects changes in the political situation. At this time it is, happily, more or less absent in that part of the world.

 

[MikeG]

..........The incidence of this varies over time, and reflects changes in the political situation. At this time it is, happily, more or less absent in that part of the world.

There has been a steep decline in religiosity in Northern Ireland in the last few years, with the sex abuse scandals leading to a breakdown in the old order, thank goodness. At the same time, there has been a virtual cessation of inter-communal violence. However, there are different causes for each of these phenomena, and so neither is cause nor effect of the other.

I say this not to contradict you, but to add to what you said.

 

[baron]

You are singling out Islam. Christianity is just as horrible. Why would you expect any different? Their holy books advocate such horror without shame. Why single out Islam?

I'll try you, then. Which Christian terrorist attacks of the past few years do you think should be included? How do they measure up to the Islamic attacks in terms of frequency and impact?

Oh, hang on...

This is not new. Remember the christians at Waco? Or Heavens Gate? Or Jim Jones? Or Westboro Baptist church?

So, Waco. These were Branch Davidians, a cult, not Christians by any standard definition. They killed four people after they were attacked by FBI SWAT teams.

Heaven's Gate. Certainly not Christians, they were a UFO cult. They killed nobody, aside from themselves.

Jim Jones. Again, a cult. Jones stated the Bible was a deception and urged people not to read it.

Westboro Baptist Church. Fundamental Christians, that's true. To my knowledge they have never killed anybody.

If you think only Islam is capable of such abominations. You are wrong. All religions do this.

In the past two years alone over 50,000 people have been killed by terrorism, and it appears this is almost exclusively Islamic.

 

[baron]

The particular insanity that is religious war is fully illustrated by Northern Ireland.

Really? Which religious war was this?

 

[MikeG]

......In the past two years alone over 50,000 people have been killed by terrorism, and it appears this is almost exclusively Islamic.

Firstly, I'll bet you're wrong with that figure. Secondly, you do seem very keen on choosing a timescale that suits your argument that it's disproportionately Muslems doing the killing. Why is that? Why have you ignored, for instance, the genocide is former Yugoslavia? Why have you chosen a timescale that excludes, say, Northern Ireland?

 

[MikeG]

Really? Which religious war was this?

Yeah, 'coz it wasn't Catholics Vs Protestants at all, was it. Or maybe you just dismiss them as sects.

 

[baron]

Firstly, I'll bet you're wrong with that figure.

How much do you bet? It's actually over 60,000, so pay up.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/202871/number-of-fatalities-by-terrorist-attacks-worldwide/

Secondly, you do seem very keen on choosing a timescale that suits your argument that it's disproportionately Muslems doing the killing.

The timescale in the OP (before it was removed) was 2015 and 2016. What I say holds true for over 20 years. But sure, go back the Crusades and prove me wrong, that's the standard approach when uncomfortable facts regarding Islam are presented.

Why is that? Why have you ignored, for instance, the genocide is former Yugoslavia?

I've not ignored anything. Include that, if you like. How are your figures stacking up now?

Why have you chosen a timescale that excludes, say, Northern Ireland?

I haven't, but it would be irrelevant anyway as the Troubles had nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Incredible that you think they did.

 

[MikeG]

By some counts, Leopold ll of Belgium was responsible for the deaths of 10 million Africans, and he justified that in terms of christianity. The Crusades were just organised massacres of Muslems, justified in the name of christianity. No, but you carry on looking for a timescale in which killings in the name of Islam outnumbers killings in the name of christianity if it makes you feel better.

 

[Craig B]

There has been a steep decline in religiosity in Northern Ireland in the last few years, with the sex abuse scandals leading to a breakdown in the old order, thank goodness. At the same time, there has been a virtual cessation of inter-communal violence. However, there are different causes for each of these phenomena, and so neither is cause nor effect of the other.

I say this not to contradict you, but to add to what you said.

Yes, I can see that. Thank you. This mitigation was very evident in Derry which I visited for the first time in my life two weeks ago. Public notices in the Guildhall, indicating the way to the toilets or the lifts were given in English, Irish and Ulster Scots. The last of these is close to my native Glasgow dialect, and I was interested to see it used as a literary language. The Mayor was a "Provost", and the passenger lift was a "hoiss", both reasonably familiar usages in Glasgow, and thus quite in order.

Nearby, in the very shadow of one of the city gates, was a shop unit used as a museum commemorating Bloody Sunday, managed by Republicans. I don't think that would have been possible in that part of the city a few years ago.

My point in all this, of course, is to argue that sectarian murders are rarely if ever necessitated by religious doctrines as such, but are incited by political differences causing hostility between denominational communities. In the N Ireland case, the hostility is better explained as one of "caste" rather than of religious doctrine.

 

[MikeG]

......It's actually over 60,000, so pay up.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/202871/number-of-fatalities-by-terrorist-attacks-worldwide/

Presumably using Assad's definition of terrorism. I'm not accepting any figures without a definition.

The timescale in the OP (before it was removed) was 2015 and 2016.

Straightforward lie. It was not. This has been pointed out to you before.

 

[baron]

By some counts, Leopold ll of Belgium was responsible for the deaths of 10 million Africans, and he justified that in terms of christianity. The Crusades were just organised massacres of Muslems, justified in the name of christianity. No, but you carry on looking for a timescale in which killings in the name of Islam outnumbers killings in the name of christianity if it makes you feel better.

Your knowledge of Leopold of Belgium is equal to your knowledge of the Irish Troubles. Carry on making unsubstantiated claims, I won't challenge you with facts any further.

 

[MikeG]

.......My point in all this, of course, is to argue that sectarian murders are rarely if ever necessitated by religious doctrines as such, but are incited by political differences causing hostility between denominational communities. In the N Ireland case, the hostility is better explained as one of "caste" rather than of religious doctrine.

Indisputably. However, it isn't that simple, as you know, in that the communities are separated (at least to some extent) in the first place principally because of religion.

 

[baron]

Presumably using Assad's definition of terrorism. I'm not accepting any figures without a definition.

Of course you won't, because they challenge your uninformed assumptions.

Straightforward lie. It was not. This has been pointed out to you before.

Yes, you said that "over the years" does not mean 2015 and 2016. Clearly 2015 and 2016 are not actual years. Great argument, although admittedly better than the ones you followed up with.

 

[MikeG]

Your knowledge of Leopold of Belgium is equal to your knowledge of the Irish Troubles. Carry on making unsubstantiated claims, I won't challenge you with facts any further.

Actually I know rather a lot about Leopold and African history in general. Dismissal by assertion without evidence: I'll take that as simple empty rhetoric.

 

[baron]

Actually I know rather a lot about Leopold and African history in general. Dismissal by assertion without evidence: I'll take that as simple empty rhetoric.

You made the claim, it's up to you to back it up. You said that his Christian religion drove him to kill ten million people. I wasn't going to embarrass you by asking you for evidence, just like I wasn't going to embarrass you by requesting your justification that the Troubles were a religious conflict, but seeing you can't let it lie, let's see it.

 

[Craig B]

Indisputably. However, it isn't that simple, as you know, in that the communities are separated (at least to some extent) in the first place principally because of religion.

That was used as an indicator of status, native or immigrant, in the course of a "plantation" settlement of the area four hundred years ago. The nature of the doctrines professed by the different populations involved was of no moment whatsoever, although the opposite was argued at the time.

 

[MikeG]

Yes, you said that "over the years" does not mean 2015 and 2016.

Another straightforward lie. I did not. Do feel free to quote my actual words rather than misrepresenting them.

Clearly 2015 and 2016 are not actual years. Great argument, although admittedly better than the ones you followed up with.

Oh, this is habitual, isn't it. No, your logic is appalling. 2015 and 2016 are only some of the years that are covered by the phrase "over the years". You have chosen to focus on them because it suits your agenda. It is neither the agenda in the OP, nor anyone else's here, to focus on those two years, but neither is it anyone's claim that they are excluded. The only stuff which has been removed from the OP is copypasta from Wiki, so the OP's wording is unchanged. Do feel free to quote it's focus on those two years.

 

[MikeG]

........You said that his Christian religion drove him to kill ten million people. .......

No, I said that this was his justification for it. You do seem to be having awful troubles with the truth in this thread.