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Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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Your source is one of the nuuters. Machiavelli made this very claim in these very threads years ago.

However, he would not reveal his source either. Therefore you are spreading gossip, and the opinion mentioned is not worth the electrons that fill the screen with it.

ETA - it's this type of thing which caused Jimbo Wales to lower the boom on the 2011 moderation of the MoMK page on Wikipedia. Nutter-guilters did not feel need to provide sources.

I have contacted the Archbishop of Canterbury to let him know of the new demographic among us and suggested vocabulary.

"DEARLY beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of Argon, and in the face of this Congregation, friends, family, nutters and we even have a few nuuters visiting us today ,to join together this guilter and this nuuter in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate,...

<snip>

Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity. Into which holy estate these two persons present come now to be joined. Therefore if any hater can shew any just cause, why they may not lawfully be joined together, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace."
 
That is a fair rendering of the journey Grinder took through this. The best contribution he'd made was amending his view after consulting an actual Italian lawyer.

Then again, I've not read an Italian source which butresses the current nutter view, that somehow the Section 2 acquittal was inferior to a Section 1 acquittal. Now that Rudy's revision has been denied, we can read that body of reasoning too!

BTW - mostly crickets from the nutters who claimed Rudy's revision would end up in reversing RS and AK's acquittals. Hoots!


If Grinder was such an enthusiastic member of your gang, how come you were forever begging him to have drinks with you?
 
You are the only one - outside of the nutter-guilter websites - who claims this. There is NO Italian legal opinion which sides with you. Both the Boninsegna court, as well as Rudy's revision court (which denied his request for revision) do not believe this.

It is a guilter fantasy - all to prop up an incompetent prosecutor, a prosecutor who was subsequently censored by his very own professional association. You obviously have not seem Mignini's own admissions in the Netflix documentary.

A little bit of objective research will get you to the same assessment. You yourself quoted Maresca, from his book, saying it was political in his view, and he was at the heart of the case.

The censure was a minor rap on the knuckles - correctly, in terms of corporate governance - in that Mignini's administrative staff omitted to put it in writing Raff could have a lawyer (which he did have, so there was no bad faith there).

For you to equate that to serious bad faith corruption of the defences shows you have no sense of proportion.
 
A little bit of objective research will get you to the same assessment. You yourself quoted Maresca, from his book, saying it was political in his view, and he was at the heart of the case.

The censure was a minor rap on the knuckles - correctly, in terms of corporate governance - in that Mignini's administrative staff omitted to put it in writing Raff could have a lawyer (which he did have, so there was no bad faith there).

For you to equate that to serious bad faith corruption of the defences shows you have no sense of proportion.

No, Maresca is not a source to be trusted. Just read his memior! For one thing he confirms tha Mignini tried to make this case about Halloween which no one believes.

No, it was not rap on te knuckles for Mignini, and it says everything about either him or you that they'd blame staff for his censure by peers.

No one other than you or the nutters believe in the "bad faith corruption of the defence". If you had a source for this you would not have cited Candace Dempsey who say exactly te opposite, then concluded with, "no one takes Dempsey seriously" when it was you who cited her as a source in the first place!!!!!

Do you ever read your citations?
 
[...]

The censure was a minor rap on the knuckles - correctly, in terms of corporate governance - in that Mignini's administrative staff omitted to put it in writing Raff could have a lawyer (which he did have, so there was no bad faith there).

[...]

You might be right on the highlighted part (says a lot about how justice is done in Italy, if true - the minor rap part :( ), but you are wrong about the rest.

Dottore Mignini was censured because he actively denied Sollecito (and Lumumba and Knox) contact to their lawyers and ordered that they had to be kept in solitary confinement, as this document proves...
You'll find this quote in all of the 3 documents:
Il P.M. ha disposto regime di isolamento e di divieto di colloquio tra gli stessi ed i loro legali.
 
It is not relevant. If you want to present evidence to a court of law, protocol and due process - and practice directions - decree that all parties have a right to see all evidence you will be introducing.

Whether they already have knowledge of the content is neither here nor there.

It is simple court etiquette, and I am surprised (or maybe not) Vecchiotti & Conti planned to produce a DVD ('independent witnesses' hired by the court, remember) for defence eyes only.

Disgraceful, unprofessional, contemptible behaviour and contemptuous of the court. As legal medics they ought to know that their first duty is to the court.

Not that your assertions make sense. Perhaps they do make sense, but if so, I don't understand them.

The problem is however, simple. The prosecution need to disclose all material relating to evidence they wish to bring to court (likewise the defence). They withheld the raw data DNA controls.

This act contravenes almost all internationally accepted laws.

If the prosecution withhold the DNA controls they compromise they defence position.

It's that simple.
 
Not mine, Babylon, which seems a notch up from google translate.

'Vecchiotti' seems to translate to 'outdated'. If so, how very apposite.

For some time back in 2011-2014 "Sarzanini" was translated as "superwitness" :D
 
.

Your question does show that you apparently may believe there is some legal consequence of the difference in CPP Article 530.1 and 530.2.
No, no, no. I've consistently drawn a difference between legal consequence and perception - as did Grinder I believe. For example and this is just one of many one could come up with, if you were applying for a job back home after being acquitted in Italy would you rather be able to present to a prospective employer a motivation report based on 1{2} or a motivation based on 2{2}.

.
Furthermore, one must be aware of the meaning assigned to the word "innocent". When I use that term in a legal context, I generally mean it in the colloquial sense that a defendant has been found "not guilty".
In the US, there is a distinct difference between "innocent" and "not guilty" which I dare say is generally understood. OJ Simpson was "not guilty" he wasn't "innocent".
 
I certainly never disagreed with him that some persons in Italy or elsewhere perceived CPP Article 530.1 and 530.2 as somehow different in legal effect.

Again, the difference was in how folks perceived the verdict as to whether the judges believed the accused might have committed the crime but it hasn't been proven. The perception had nothing to do with legal effect.
 
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Another issue that may be present generating this "discussion" is that CPP Article 530.2 begins:

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal ALSOin case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that

Apparently, the meaning of "ALSO" may not be clear to some.
It means that the acquittal of paragraph 2 is the SAME as the acquittal of paragraph 1; the 530.2 acquittal is in addition to those of 530.1, with no indication that it is a lesser acquittal.

Consider what the word "ALSO" means in English:


Definition of also

1
: likewise 1 <They also liked it.>

2
: in addition : besides, too <She's a talented singer and also a fine actress.>

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/also

In addition; too.
‘a brilliant linguist, he was also interested in botany’
‘dyslexia, also known as word-blindness’

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/also

I understand that you take the "also" in paragraph 2 to mean that the accused will also be acquitted. I don't have any issue with that, nor do I think Grinder did. On the other hand, paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 clearly give different "motivations" for the verdict to be stated in the "motivation report". It is the difference in the reasons for the acquittal that Grinder and I focused on, not the consequences.

Grinder was a stickler for detail. He didn't know whether there might be some difference between the legal consequences of a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 verdict and he steadfastly refused to say there was no difference until he consulted his Italian source. I cringed every time he got dragged into a discussion about legal consequences because I never believed it was his point.

Instead, his point was that a paragraph 1 verdict would be perceived as meaning Knox and Sollecito were innocent in the opinion of the judges while a paragraph 2 would be perceived as meaning that the case had not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The latter would leave open the door for some to believe the judges thought the pair might have committed the crime but that it hadn't been sufficiently proven.

I tried to clarify this in the Continuation Part 21 thread here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11231488#post11231488

see also
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11231509#post11231509

As Americans, both Grinder and I made a clear distinction between "innocent" and "not guilty".
 
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I have contacted the Archbishop of Canterbury to let him know of the new demographic among us and suggested vocabulary.

"DEARLY beloved, we are gathered together here in the sight of Argon, and in the face of this Congregation, friends, family, nutters and we even have a few nuuters visiting us today ,to join together this guilter and this nuuter in holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate,...

<snip>

Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity. Into which holy estate these two persons present come now to be joined. Therefore if any hater can shew any just cause, why they may not lawfully be joined together, let him now speak, or else hereafter for ever hold his peace."

It's no wonder you default to this tripe. You know nothing og the Wikipedia controversy in early 2011, nor any about Machiavelli's conspiratorializing of Hellmann.
 
Again, the difference was in how folks perceived the verdict as to whether the judges believed the accused might have committed the crime but it hasn't been proven. The perception had nothing to do with legal effect.

In the time since March 2015, I'm not sure anyone can point to any Italian source which says that the perception should be: "the judges thought they were probably guilty, but not at the level of BARD." It seems that even in Italy the perception is that the kids were/are innocent.

Be that as it may, all the subsequent courts have quoted the legal effect as being "exonerated", or "absolved", with no need really to even mention BARD.

Remaining nutcases are in de facto agreement with this (as the way it sits in Italy) to now advocate actual stalking and harsssing of the kids, now that this legal effect is conceded.
 
No, no, no. I've consistently drawn a difference between legal consequence and perception - as did Grinder I believe. For example and this is just one of many one could come up with, if you were applying for a job back home after being acquitted in Italy would you rather be able to present to a prospective employer a motivation report based on 1{2} or a motivation based on 2{2}.


In the US, there is a distinct difference between "innocent" and "not guilty" which I dare say is generally understood. OJ Simpson was "not guilty" he wasn't "innocent".

First, if your comment on whether I would care, in terms of presenting to an employer, whether I had been acquitted under CPP Article 530.1 or 530.2 after a hypothetical trial in Italy, as I previously explained, there is no difference in these acquittals legally in Italy, and the 530.2 acquittal is exactly the NON GUILTY verdict one would get in the US. So I would be fine with it. I had explained that in my earlier response to one of your posts.

Why does the dictionary not reflect the difference you claim between "not guilty" and "innocent" (definition 1c):

1 a : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>

2 a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuousb : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>

3 : lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics — Marcia Davenport>

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innocent

Your comment on the Simpson case simply reflects a confusion of words and definitions, which unfortunately was also present in some of Grinder's posts on this topic. You are confusing the fact that Simpson was found NOT GUILTY by a US legal criminal trial, which means he could not be retried on those criminal charges. One could say, if one uses the collequial meaning of innocent that it is equivalent to a finding of NOT GUILTY in a criminal trial, that Simpson was legally innocent. That does not mean that had the trial and the presentation of evidence at the trial, including the issues of police credibility and credibility of the presentation of the DNA evidence, been better, that he could not have been convicted.

What then occurred is that Simpson was sued by the families of the victims. Simpson was found liable for the deaths of the victims and had to pay compensation. Civil trials in the US have a lower standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt, instead finding liability - not criminal legal guilt - if the jury finds that on the balance of probabilities, the plaintiff's claims are true. Civil trials following criminal trial acquittals are not considered double jeopardy in the US.

People claiming that Knox and Sollecito received a verdict of "may be guilty" rather than a full acquittal are either deceived by PGP propaganda or have not studied this issue sufficiently. The specification "the accused did not commit the act (crime)" is meaningful.

I challenge you to find any media reports (not PGP blogs) in Italy that suggest Knox and Sollecito did not receive a full acquittal, meaning that the CSC found that they may have committed the murder/rape of Kercher but there just wasn't enough evidence to convict.

Hint: Any such "verdict" of a court suggesting guilt while presenting a verdict stating acquittal (non-guilt) would be a serious violation of rights under the European Convention of Human Rights.
 
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In the time since March 2015, I'm not sure anyone can point to any Italian source which says that the perception should be: "the judges thought they were probably guilty, but not at the level of BARD." It seems that even in Italy the perception is that the kids were/are innocent.

Be that as it may, all the subsequent courts have quoted the legal effect as being "exonerated", or "absolved", with no need really to even mention BARD.

Remaining nutcases are in de facto agreement with this (as the way it sits in Italy) to now advocate actual stalking and harsssing of the kids, now that this legal effect is conceded.

I certainly can't cite an Italian source and I don't think it is particularly relevant. I don't think you need to look any farther than Continuation Part 14 to see a discussion (largely amongst Innocentisti) of how a paragraph 2 versus paragraph 1 acquittal could be perceived.

Bill, I hope you and Numbers know how much I respect you both and how much I enjoy reading your posts. Now that Grinder is gone I guess I've appointed myself the town curmudgeon. I believe that Numbers misrepresented Grinder's position in the Condolences thread and felt the need to correct the record. I've laid out that case as best I can both there and in this thread. His main point was never that there was a difference in the legal consequences of a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 acquittal. It always was that there was a clear difference in the motivation behind a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 acquittal and that those two paragraphs corresponded roughly to "innocent" versus "not guilty" or "not proven". For a long time he stubbornly maintained that there was a possibility that the two different paragraphs might have some subtle legal consequence that he was unaware of. When he learned from his Italian source that there was, in fact, no difference in legal consequence it certainly did not contradict his main point.
 
First, if your comment on whether I would care, in terms of presenting to an employer, whether I had been acquitted under CPP Article 530.1 or 530.2 after a hypothetical trial in Italy, as I previously explained, there is no difference in these acquittals legally in Italy, and the 530.2 acquittal is exactly the NON GUILTY verdict one would get in the US. So I would be fine with it. I had explained that in my earlier response to one of your posts.

I would certainly care whether I received a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 verdict. We agree that there is no difference in the acquittals legally in Italy. We don't agree as to whether that is the only thing that matters.

Why does the dictionary not reflect the difference you claim between "not guilty" and "innocent" (definition 1c):

1 a : free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child>b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze>c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>

2 a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuousb : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon>

3 : lacking or deprived of something <her face innocent of cosmetics — Marcia Davenport>

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innocent
You've only presented the definition of "innocent" not of "not guilty" and I'm thinking that "free from legal guilt" is not quite the same as a verdict of "not guilty". Actually I think a better term for this discussion would be "not proven".
Your comment on the Simpson case simply reflects a confusion of words and definitions, which unfortunately was also present in some of Grinder's posts on this topic. You are confusing the fact that Simpson was found NOT GUILTY by a US legal criminal trial, which means he could not be retried on those criminal charges. One could say, if one uses the collequial meaning of innocent that it is equivalent to a finding of NOT GUILTY in a criminal trial, that Simpson was legally innocent. That does not mean that had the trial and the presentation of evidence at the trial, including the issues of police credibility and credibility of the presentation of the DNA evidence, been better, that he could not have been convicted.

What then occurred is that Simpson was sued by the families of the victims. Simpson was found liable for the deaths of the victims and had to pay compensation. Civil trials in the US have a lower standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt, instead finding liability - not criminal legal guilt - if the jury finds that on the balance of probabilities, the plaintiff's claims are true. Civil trials following criminal trial acquittals are not considered double jeopardy in the US.
Except that is not how Americans, both lawyers and the general public, use the terms "innocent" and "not guilty". They are distinct concepts in America. Interestingly, the distinction between two concepts in America is reflected in the distinction between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 of 530 in Italian law.
You can google "innocent versus not guilty" to get numerous informative discussions from reputable sources that explain the difference.

http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/funfacts/notguilty.htm
http://thelawdictionary.org/verdict-of-not-guilty/
http://www.amacdonaldlaw.com/blog/2...ference-between-innocent-and-not-guilty.shtml
https://www.law.upenn.edu/fac/phrobins/books/notguilty.pdf
http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2011/07/justice-for-casey-anthony/
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/acquittal
Your second paragraph above is correct not that we didn't already know that
 
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I certainly can't cite an Italian source and I don't think it is particularly relevant. I don't think you need to look any farther than Continuation Part 14 to see a discussion (largely amongst Innocentisti) of how a paragraph 2 versus paragraph 1 acquittal could be perceived.

Bill, I hope you and Numbers know how much I respect you both and how much I enjoy reading your posts. Now that Grinder is gone I guess I've appointed myself the town curmudgeon. I believe that Numbers misrepresented Grinder's position in the Condolences thread and felt the need to correct the record. I've laid out that case as best I can both there and in this thread. His main point was never that there was a difference in the legal consequences of a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 acquittal. It always was that there was a clear difference in the motivation behind a paragraph 1 versus paragraph 2 acquittal and that those two paragraphs corresponded roughly to "innocent" versus "not guilty" or "not proven".
I think you are only partly right at how Grinder started with this. If I can blow my own horn a minute, Grinder never thought of it in terms of comparing "legal consequences" between the two sections until I raised that particular nuance with him.

He actually did move from thinking that Section 2 was close to the Scottish "not proven", but gave that up when others (Like Numbers and LJ) showed him that "not proven" is a non sequitor in Italian law.

And he perhaps did what he should have done - instead of believing me (I am neither Italian nor a lawyer) he fact-checked from a real Italian lawyer. It turns out I was right, there is no difference of legal consequence between the two sections which is the **ONLY** thing of relevance.

This "perception" issue perhaps has meaning only in a country, like Italy, where personal honour has meaning - so much meaning that it is protected in the criminal code. However, I don't think there's even a "perception" difference between the two sections......

....... but heres the deal. We're not talking hypothetically, although we could have a dandy hypothetical discussion I suppose.

The issue for this thread is, is there a perception difference IN THIS CASE?

I would say no. Regardless of this being a Section 2 acquittal, there's enough of an official written record almost 2 years following the final acquittals to establish, that this is **perceived** as a total exoneration, or an "absolution" as it was put in the Boninsegna motivations report.

Other than the nutters, there is no one who represents it as anything else. Indeed, when the Netflix documentary represents it this way, the only blowback from that is from the predictable nutter sources.

I's argue that regardless of whether or not there's a **perceived** difference between #1 and #2 in some cases, in this case it is clear. They were exonerated. Full stop.

If I am wrong, show me.

BTW - No one can out-Grinder Grinder. When he was made they broke the mold!
 
This "perception" issue perhaps has meaning only in a country, like Italy, where personal honour has meaning - so much meaning that it is protected in the criminal code. However, I don't think there's even a "perception" difference between the two sections......
OJ and Casey Anthony will be glad to know this.

If I am wrong, show me.
To be clear, I am not trying to say that the paragraph used in the motivation report has had an effect on public opinion. I've said ad nauseum that many were discussing on ISF, after the verdict was announced but prior to any definitive word on the basis for the verdict, whether it would be a paragraph 1 or 2 motivation and dare I say hoping for paragraph 1. Many now are arguing that it doesn't matter. Those 2 positions are not compatible and I think you would agree with me that Grinder would never stand for such inconsistency. Let me also add for clarity that I don't know whether there was any significant intersection between the two sets of posters, just that I've read lots of posts expressing those views.

BTW - No one can out-Grinder Grinder. When he was made they broke the mold!
Amen.
 
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Numbers, let me also add that while OJ Simpson was found "not guilty" it is my belief that his actions with respect to the murders of Nicole Brown and Ron Brown fit none of the definitions of "innocent" that you provided.

You are entitled to your opinion, and even to your own definitions.

One small disagreement I had with Grinder involved his use of the word "framed" (in the "colloquial" legal sense). He stated that if the police (or prosecutor) believed AK and RS guilty, and then proceeded to manufacture evidence against them, the police could not, by definition, be framing them, because by definition, one can only frame an innocent person.

But I pointed out that by the Italian Constitution and the European Convention and ECHR case law, one is innocent until a final conviction. Therefore, by his definition, they could be framed by the manufacture of evidence. He refused to agree to that. I also suggested a better terminology for the police (and prosecution) behavior in manufacturing, withholding, and misinterpreting evidence (commonly termed "framing") would be the more legalistic "official misconduct". No dice on that either, for Grinder.

Grinder also believed that one cannot coin and define words, that only dictionary definitions are meaningful, although I pointed out scientists do that all the time. I should have added that, at least in the US, every generation of teenagers coins and defines words.

So you, contrary to Grinder's position, apparently do not agree with the use of a dictionary definition that I provided from a US dictionary, which states that one meaning of "innocent" is "found legally not guilty".

I suggest that another way of looking at this is to insert the phrase "wrongfully found" before the "not guilty" or the colloquial "innocent".

You don't have to agree with what I write, but remember this reality:

Simpson was found not guilty of the murder of Brown and Goldman and may not be tried in a criminal court again on those charges. He was found liable in a civil trial for their wrongful deaths. And these legal facts are true even though one may consider that the jury wrongfully found that Simpson was not guilty in the criminal case. The "legal innocence" must not be confused with "moral innocence" or "actual innocence" or "civil liability" or "rightful blame" in my definitions, and Webster's Dictionary definition 1c is the colloquial "legal innocence" being equivalent to a court judgment of "not guilty".

And those facts have nothing to do with the case of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who were wrongfully arrested and detained and suffered official misconduct at the hands of the Italian authorities, actions in violation of Italian law and Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights.

Sollecito has applied for compensation for wrongful detention and a judgment on his application may be made soon by the Italian judicial system. Do you believe that the perceptions you allege that Sollecito was not truly fully acquitted by the CSC, that the judges believed he may be guilty, but just didn't have enough evidence to convict him, are shared by the Italian judicial system, and that this may affect his case for compensation? Are you aware of any such reports in the Italian media - again, I exclude PGP blogs or PGP fake wikis?

I strongly disagree with this effort to claim that Knox and Sollecito are not innocent; it is clear that there was no credible evidence against them.

And I have never maintained that any of the acquittals of Knox and Sollecito were or should have been under CPP Article 530.1. In my opinion based on my reading of Italian legal sources, that paragraph is an unnecessary holdover from the inquisitional system that Italy used to have.
 
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