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Proof of Immortality, the IV league

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- we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...


Now you're trying to equivocate between different senses of the word "reproduce", and calling the soul a "particular awareness", and trying to imply that other posters agree with you. Stop it. It should be perfectly clear to you that what people have been telling you is that, if your body could be perfectly reproduced, it would be identical to you in all its properties, including its consciousness, but it wouldn't be you, it would be another entity indistinguishable from you. And that consciousness is a process.

- I'll have to leave it at that for now...


How many going 60mph are there?
 
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we only know in a very general way what events led to my particular awareness

Not under H. Under H the organism of Jabba was produced biologically by its parents in a straightforward, very well understood process. Its sense of self emerged as a property of that organism when it reached a certain level of neurological maturity. Your "particular" awareness is not an entity. It is most certainly not a separate entity. You simply exhibit the same property as all such organisms. The property itself isn't divisible or countable. It's not a "thing."

Bayesian probability is based upon our knowledge, or lack thereof

No, this is just vague handwaving. You really don't know what Bayesian methods are or what they're for, and you've been instructed to that effect by a long line of knowledgeable experts, some of whom you chose yourself.

Bayesian methods let us reason as defensibly as possible in the face of uncertainty and the estimable unknown. That does not mean anything you declare to be uncertain or to exist uncertainly is automatically fodder for a statistical analysis, or that your use of Bayes in this case is proper. You have the cart before the horse. You know what you would need in order to perform a Bayesian inference that gives you the answer you want, and now you're just inventing random concepts that you say plug correctly (both quantitatively and conceptually) into Bayes' theorem with respect to H, and trying to foist them onto your critics.

we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...

Meaningless gibberish. Under H your "particular awareness" is not a physical production or reproduction. Under H your awareness is an emergent property of the organism. Reproduce the organism and its environment and the property necessarily follows. Reproduce the organism and its environment exactly and the property will necessarily emerge exactly as before. The impossibility of any of these thought experiment has absolutely nothing to do with whether your argument is quantitatively meaningful. We use them to explore what the sense of self means under H, but you don't seem interested. You want to foist your concept onto it so you can pretend to have falsified it.

Blatant straw man.

I'll have to leave it at that for now...

Then your proof fails ipso facto. If you can't address the rebuttals, you lose. That's how losing works.
 
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Dave,
- But,
- we only know in a very general way what events led to my particular awareness,
- Bayesian probability is based upon our knowledge, or lack thereof,
- we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...
- I'll have to leave it at that for now...


Stop using "we" when you really mean "Jabba". You are trying to force consensus when there is none at all.

How many "going 60 mph" are there? Why are you so afraid to address this question?
 
Jabba the mistakes you are making have been explained to you patiently, in detail. and in the simplest possible terms, many many times. Why are you simply repeating them as if it was the first time you'd ever made them? Go back and read the responses you got any of the previous times you posted the same faulty arguments, and this time try to understand them.

Jabba clearly does not read responses. He has stated so on more that one occasion and we know so given his proclivity to glom onto the least resistant poster.
 
Dave,
- But,
- we only know in a very general way what events led to my particular awareness,
- Bayesian probability is based upon our knowledge, or lack thereof,
- we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...
- I'll have to leave it at that for now...

How surprising that you ignored his critical question. Maybe it is best that you leave it entirely since you refuse to even consider what the scientific hypothesis actually is.
 
Dave,
- But,
- we only know in a very general way what events led to my particular awareness,
- Bayesian probability is based upon our knowledge, or lack thereof,
- we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...
- I'll have to leave it at that for now...

Even you do not reproduce your particular awareness moment to moment, is it really the same every moment, does it change when you are sleepy, angry or excited?

What evidence do you have it is the same awareness moment to moment?
 
Jabba, at the very beginning of your doomed long-term attempt to prove something using your deeply improbable existence, I told you more or less the following:

Your formula is entirely subjective. It's subjectivity doesn't make it invalid. But it does mean it cannot be used to prove anything to anyone other than yourself.

I'll try one more time, using a real-world anecdotal example.

I once told a Nevada Gaming Commission agent that I was convinced there was a significant number of cheating dealers at the blackjack tables. I had played hundreds of thousands of hands, using a strategy that had a known mathematical expectation. I had kept track of my results. I had found that my losses varied from the mathematical expectation to such an extent that statistical testing concluded, with near certainty, that a significant amount of dealer cheating was occurring, based on my results. (A "significant" amount of dealer cheating wouldn't be a lot, BTW. A little dab of dealer cheating will do ya.)

The agent told me that nobody ever complained to him about their excessively improbable winnings. The only people who ever came to him were those who had suffered excessively improbable losses. I was therefore, from his perspective, a a member of a biased sample.

I was impressed with his understanding of probability. However, as I pointed out to him, I was only a biased sample from his perspective. I was not a biased sample from my own perspective. I pointed out that, from my perspective, it was correct for me to view my results as typical, particularly given the large size of my sample. Which, from my perspective, strongly indicated that there was a significant amount of dealer cheating occurring.

But I did not rely on sampling alone. I also had a hypothesis on how the cheating was being done. I briefly explained the mechanics of "preferential shuffling" to the agent.

The agent didn't even bother to deny that a significant amount of preferential shuffling was occurring. He simply pointed out that it is "legal" for a dealer to shuffle the cards at any time.

I called it "legalized cheating". That's pretty much where the discussion ended.

The point is that (apparently unbeknownst to most participants of this thread), perspective matters a great deal in probability. From the agent's perspective, I was very probably a member of a biased sample. But not so from my perspective. My correct default assumption was that my results were typical. My sample size was large, and pointed strongly toward significant dealer cheating. Furthermore, I knew how it could be done, legally, with hardly anyone (except an occasional card counter) ever noticing.

In much the same sense, Jabba, the highly improbable existence of your specific body will never be viewed by your interlocutors as any more significant than the existence of some random dust mote in a distant galaxy.

That doesn't mean your body's existence is not significant - to you. Your body's existence may well be deeply significant - to you. Your specific body's existence just might mean something, to you, though you might not ever figure out what it really means.

It's just that you can't use your body's existence to prove anything to anyone else. Well, not any of the people you're arguing with here, at least. This crowd is itself a biased sample. These are all people who don't see anything suspicious about their own deeply improbable existence.

They are, however, correct in not seeing anything suspicious about your deeply improbable existence - from their perspective.
 
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A lottery like that is not analogous to the way human selves come to exist under H. The likelihood of a particular human self existing is based on the events that lead to its existence. It has nothing to do with selves that could have potentially existed in the past or the future, or with selves that could potentially be produced by other parents in the present.

If you strike a match, does the number of potential flames have anything to do with the likelihood of that match producing a flame? After it burns out, can it ever come back?

Dave,
- But,
- we only know in a very general way what events led to my particular awareness,
- Bayesian probability is based upon our knowledge, or lack thereof,
- we don't think we could physically reproduce my particular awareness anyway...
- I'll have to leave it at that for now...

We know how humans reproduce. Those are all the events that are relevant.
...
Dave,
- But, the same sperm and ovum would not produce the same particular awareness.
 
Dave,
- But, the same sperm and ovum would not produce the same particular awareness.

As has been pointed out an infinite number of times, and ignored every time: awareness is a process. Consciousness is a process. Going 60 mph is a process. Flame is a process. The sperm and ovum produce a body. Awareness is something the body does, not something that exists as an entity on it's own.

Asked before, and ignored: do you think your father telling you never to give up is a part of who Jabba is? If not, why not? If yes, (and it is) do you understand that every experience you have is a part of who you are?
 
Jabba, at the very beginning of your doomed long-term attempt to prove something using your deeply improbable existence, I told you more or less the following:

Your formula is entirely subjective. It's subjectivity doesn't make it invalid. But it does mean it cannot be used to prove anything to anyone other than yourself.

I'll try one more time, using a real-world anecdotal example.

I once told a Nevada Gaming Commission agent that I was convinced there was a significant number of cheating dealers at the blackjack tables. I had played hundreds of thousands of hands, using a strategy that had a known mathematical expectation. I had kept track of my results. I had found that my losses varied from the mathematical expectation to such an extent that statistical testing concluded, with near certainty, that a significant amount of dealer cheating was occurring, based on my results. (A "significant" amount of dealer cheating wouldn't be a lot, BTW. A little dab of dealer cheating will do ya.)

The agent told me that nobody ever complained to him about their excessively improbable winnings. The only people who ever came to him were those who had suffered excessively improbable losses. I was therefore, from his perspective, a a member of a biased sample.

I was impressed with his understanding of probability. However, as I pointed out to him, I was only a biased sample from his perspective. I was not a biased sample from my own perspective. I pointed out that, from my perspective, it was correct for me to view my results as typical, particularly given the large size of my sample. Which, from my perspective, strongly indicated that there was a significant amount of dealer cheating occurring.

But I did not rely on sampling alone. I also had a hypothesis on how the cheating was being done. I briefly explained the mechanics of "preferential shuffling" to the agent.

The agent didn't even bother to deny that a significant amount of preferential shuffling was occurring. He simply pointed out that it is "legal" for a dealer to shuffle the cards at any time.

I called it "legalized cheating". That's pretty much where the discussion ended.

The point is that (apparently unbeknownst to most participants of this thread), perspective matters a great deal in probability. From the agent's perspective, I was very probably a member of a biased sample. But not so from my perspective. My correct default assumption was that my results were typical. My sample size was large, and pointed strongly toward significant dealer cheating. Furthermore, I knew how it could be done, legally, with hardly anyone (except an occasional card counter) ever noticing.

In much the same sense, Jabba, the highly improbable existence of your specific body will never be viewed by your interlocutors as any more significant than the existence of some random dust mote in a distant galaxy.

That doesn't mean your body's existence is not significant - to you. Your body's existence may well be deeply significant - to you. Your specific body's existence just might mean something, to you, though you might not ever figure out what it really means.

It's just that you can't use your body's existence to prove anything to anyone else. Well, not any of the people you're arguing with here, at least. This crowd is itself a biased sample. These are all people who don't see anything suspicious about their own deeply improbable existence.

They are, however, correct in not seeing anything suspicious about your deeply improbable existence - from their perspective.
Toon,
- I think that I understand what you mean. But if I do, I don't fully agree. I do think that I can reason -- from my perspective -- to the unlikelihood of their existence.
 
Toon,
- I think that I understand what you mean. But if I do, I don't fully agree. I do think that I can reason -- from my perspective -- to the unlikelihood of their existence.
When? Is has been literally THOUSANDS of posts.

When?


How many going 60mph are there?
 
But, the same sperm and ovum would not produce the same particular awareness.

Under H they most certainly would, although there are environmental factors mentioned by others that you have wholly ignored. Your problem is that you don't appreciate how vastly different the scientific model really is from the cartoony version of it that you're trying to falsify.

You write "the same particular awareness" in a way that underscores your ongoing misrepresentation of awareness under H as a "thing." It isn't a "thing." You can't count it. You can't talk about discrete instances of it. It's a property. Your assiduous reluctance to talk about the countability or discreteness of a property is now glaringly obvious. We've all asked you "how many 60 mph are there?" and you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the question has even been asked.

How can a thoughtful critic come to any conclusion other than that you know full well you can't make this notion stick and are just biding time?
 
Dave,
- But, the same sperm and ovum would not produce the same particular awareness.


More nonsense equating some particular DNA sequence to awareness, Jabba?

Awareness is a process and -as anyone who has had their awareness altered by something like, say, sleep can tell you - it is an ever-changing process.

Just like the speed of your car.

How many "going 60 mph" are there?
 
Dave,
- But, the same sperm and ovum would not produce the same particular awareness.
They would initiate the same VERSION of the awareness process which would immediately become different as it absorbed and became influenced by experience.

If you have 2 toyotas made from the factory with the same models of parts, same options etc, then had them both drive down the highway at 60 mph, there would be 2 cars 'going 60 mph'.
There is no 'pool' of 'going 60 mph' and each car assimilated a different 'going 60 mph' from a pool of potential 'going 60 mph's. Do you see how silly that sounds?

give it up, you can try to word this 1000 different ways and try 1000 different analogies. They don't work because all of your analogies point to the same pre-assumption which is un-evidenced and based on an incorrect understanding.

How many 'going 60 mph are there'?

Each time you don't answer further illustrates your failure.
 
Toon,
- I think that I understand what you mean. But if I do, I don't fully agree. I do think that I can reason -- from my perspective -- to the unlikelihood of their existence.

You can certainly reason to the unlikelihood of their existences. But unlikelihood is not the same as significance. The unlikelihood of their existences would be - from your perspective - no more significant than the equally unlikely existences of random dust motes in distant galaxies.

I'm not saying a particular unlikely occurrence is insignificant simply because other similar unlikely occurrences have happened or could happen. I am saying an occurrence can gain significance through a particular perspective, and lose significance through another perspective. Like my blackjack results as viewed through my perspective and through the agent's perspective.

I think the most you could possibly prove would be to show that the subjective form of your formula is valid. That might be accomplished by using a formula of the same general form to correctly answer a real world question, or something like that.
 
They would initiate the same VERSION of the awareness process which would immediately become different as it absorbed and became influenced by experience.

If you have 2 toyotas made from the factory with the same models of parts, same options etc, then had them both drive down the highway at 60 mph, there would be 2 cars 'going 60 mph'.
There is no 'pool' of 'going 60 mph' and each car assimilated a different 'going 60 mph' from a pool of potential 'going 60 mph's. Do you see how silly that sounds?

give it up, you can try to word this 1000 different ways and try 1000 different analogies. They don't work because all of your analogies point to the same pre-assumption which is un-evidenced and based on an incorrect understanding.

How many 'going 60 mph are there'?

Each time you don't answer further illustrates your failure.
While I do not think Jabba will ever openly concede regardless of the strength of the article Hume the demonstrating his errors (and deceit), your use of the word "version" leads me to think that a more direct analogy is that of software. If I buy Word 2016 and you buy Word 2016, the two programs are, indeed, both identical and the same though they reside on different laptops. The use of them to produce different documents, iow, does not change that.

How many different "typing a document" are there?
 
While I do not think Jabba will ever openly concede regardless of the strength of the article Hume the demonstrating his errors (and deceit), your use of the word "version" leads me to think that a more direct analogy is that of software. If I buy Word 2016 and you buy Word 2016, the two programs are, indeed, both identical and the same though they reside on different laptops. The use of them to produce different documents, iow, does not change that.

How many different "typing a document" are there?

I like that! :)
 
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