US Officially Blames Russia

1. Do you know how to use google?
I do. I found no primary sources, but several references lacking any citation what so ever.

Plus, your claim, your burden of proof.

2. The mere fact that you even require a citation for this shows that you are in absolutely no position to judge the "trustworthiness" of the intelligence agencies.
How so?


Sure it was from you. You argued that we could appeal to authority as opposed to requiring evidence, didn't you?
Not at all. I said we could appeal to appropriate authority in situations where we lack empirical evidence or are otherwise unqualified to evaluate such evidence.

Do vaccines cause autism? Did you preform your own studies to verify or reject the scientific consensus?


Ugh. I don't mind arguing topics, but when it comes to continually explaining critical thinking, logic, and fallacies, it gets really old.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it would help if you knew what you were talking about.
 
That quote wasn't directly from Casey, an 'expert' relayed it secondhand. Do you depend on 'expert' testimony?

And furthermore, William Casey died about 30 years ago; therefore even if one does find exact quotes from him, then such data may be of quite limited value now.
 
And furthermore, William Casey died about 30 years ago; therefore even if one does find exact quotes from him, then such data may be of quite limited value now.

True, but context would also help. What I found was a third-person anecdote with no context at all.
 
I do. I found no primary sources, but several references lacking any citation what so ever.

It was reported by someone in a staff meeting where he purportedly said this, which you can easily find by googling.

Plus, your claim, your burden of proof.

True.


Because your request for a citation suggests that your view of the intelligence agencies is such that you would find this surprising.

Not at all. I said we could appeal to appropriate authority in situations where we lack empirical evidence or are otherwise unqualified to evaluate such evidence.

I declare the pope to be an "appropriate" authority. So you believe you have an immortal soul?

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it would help if you knew what you were talking about.

I do, you don't.
 
But those do not count towards their respective credibilities?

It does. It is why my description of them here has been so kind.

No they do not. If sometimes telling the truth serves them better than lying, and other times lying serves them better than telling the truth, then the mere fact that they sometimes tell the truth does not give them credibility.
 
No they do not. If sometimes telling the truth serves them better than lying, and other times lying serves them better than telling the truth, then the mere fact that they sometimes tell the truth does not give them credibility.

Everyone lies. You have to factor it in.
 
It was reported by someone in a staff meeting where he purportedly said this, which you can easily find by googling.

True.
Anytime you're ready, then.


Because your request for a citation suggests that your view of the intelligence agencies is such that you would find this surprising.
So, because I asked you to support your claim, you have deduced my view on separate topic and drew even further conclusions based on that?


I declare the pope to be an "appropriate" authority. So you believe you have an immortal soul?
I pointed out the distinction before. Can you rectify in order to continue this line of argument or are you merely going to continue from a position of intellectual dishonesty?


I do, you don't.
Evidence?

In case you missed mine from before, here are a few others, with relevant quotes:

An argument from authority refers to two kinds of logical arguments:
  1. A logically valid argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of one or more authoritative source(s), whose opinions are likely to be true on the relevant issue. Notably, this is a Bayesian statement -- it is likely to be true, rather than necessarily true. As such, an argument from authority can only strongly suggest what is true -- not prove it.
  2. A logically fallacious argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of a source that is not authoritative. Sources could be non-authoritative because of their personal bias, their disagreement with consensus on the issue, their non-expertise in the relevant issue, or a number of other issues. (Often, this is called an appeal to authority, rather than argument from authority.)
(source)

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.
(source)
 
Everyone lies. You have to factor it in.

Which raises the question: Why would all the relevant intelligence agencies lie about this, especially as it is based on information that will, in all likelihood, be part of a congressional investigation and/or declassified at some point?
 
Everyone lies. You have to factor it in.

Yes, everyone lies. In this specific case though the people who we should blindly "trust" are statistically more likely to lie to serve their interests (by the psychological effects of having power), are known to be in the business of spreading disinformation (exactly disinformation of the type which the claims under consideration fit in), the evidence which did get public has clear flaws, and the report which did get released could have come straight from McCarthy.

To argue that it should be accepted on "trust" isn't critical thinking but pure unadulterated ideology.
 
From the way you're presenting it, it seems mostly a combination of educated guesswork and ideological indoctrination. Whatever it is, it sure ain't a logic though.

"A logic" typically refers to a formal system, yes, but the study of logic historically and appropriately refers to more than that. It is the study of reasoning (in a prescriptive sense), the distinction between reasoning effectively and not.

Historically alchemy was a part of science, that doesn't mean much.

When I think of logic I think of the study of logical systems, aka formal systems with semantics. All of which have precise definitions, precise methods, etc. As opposed to that "informal logic" which seems some vague set of heuristics floating around in mid-air without grounding.

Not at all. The rules for judging the strength of, say, an argument by analogy are well-motivated, though in practice certainly more vague than a formal logic. That's the nature of the beast.

Not limited to Bayesian. I find the view that any meaningful reasoning can be done without a formal framework to be a fantastic fiction.



Except that your assignment of "trust" to the "authorities" in this case (US government and intelligence agencies) is ideological rather than empirical. By this logic I can assign "trust" to the pope and then claim to have evidence for us having immortal souls, because the pope says so.

All that's happening here is that people are packaging their ideological preferences under "trust assignments" and then claiming that their appeals to these "trusted" authorities aren't fallacies because reasons.

And that's the thing that bothers me about this, if people were to just say "my ideology requires me to believe the claims" then sure, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But no, they just have to go and package it under "critical thinking". Especially the appeals to scientific authority to support the case is an abuse of science at a level which is no better than so-called "creation science".

No, we must distinguish between evaluating an argument form (very loosely understood, in an informal setting) and the truth of the premises.

Suppose I'm dead wrong about whether these sources are indeed trustworthy authorities. Then some of the premises of my argument are false, and so the argument does not support the probability of the conclusion.

In deduction, we distinguish between validity (appropriate form, roughly) and soundness (valid with true premises). I apologize that I don't seem to have my old text at hand, so do not recall the appropriate terms for induction and am not sure that the distinction between the two concepts is as clearly made there. But, given that A is a trustworthy authority on X, from A's assertion that X, I can infer that X is probable. The better the evidence of trustworthiness and expert knowledge, the more probable X will be.

Of course, my claims about A's trustworthiness or knowledge could be false. In that case, it would still be so that, had my premises been true, X would be probable. Since some of my premises are false, X is not probable.

Very similar things happen in deduction. Many times, in a mathematical proof, I use a statement which I am damn sure is a theorem in order to prove something, but I'll be darned if I'm not wrong. It happens. Individuals' abilities to determine the truth of premises is prone to error.

In this case, we are worse off, since you and I have no good way for ensuring that, through patient discussion and careful consideration, we will come to agree on whether or not these agencies and the bipartisan committees are reliable authorities. The stuff of political discussion is messy compared to mathematics. So it goes.



You are doing statistical reasoning. You've earlier established a correlation between "hearing funny noise" and "having bad starter" which you then use the next time you hear the noise. This could easily be put in a Bayesian framework as well.

Goodness, who would put it in a Bayesian framework?

I would rather determine whether the analogy between the two situations is sufficiently compelling to make a probable diagnosis. I haven't the time or interest to muck about with statistical methods before testing the starter.

The informal methods of reasoning we use are imperfect, vague, would be much better replaced by statistical methods in many, many instances. But we live in the world, and we reason as things happen, and while it may be jolly fun and useful to build artificial agents to reason more formally, we are not those agents. Thus, we ought to concern ourselves with insuring that our understanding of these informal methods is as thorough as is practicable.

Sorry, I won't be teaching freshmen that they need to use Bayesian methods in order to reliably diagnose starter issues.
 
Not limited to Bayesian. I find the view that any meaningful reasoning can be done without a formal framework to be a fantastic fiction.

Just to be clear, almost none of your contributions in this thread constitute meaningful reasoning?

(Not sure exactly how to understand the word "meaningful" in terms of reasoning, by the way.)
 
As in most human affairs, we don't need 100% proof to make a judgement call. Most of the time we do not have the luxury of perfect knowledge or infinite time to investigate, especially if there are national security implications. To demand proof beyond doubt is nothing is plain obstructionism.
Not even Trump denies that hacking of the DNC and Clinton campaign took place. And most people would agree that the released emails dominated the news about the Clinton campaign, thereby skewing the perception of voters.
Everyone who doesn't think investigating this is important doesn't believe in democracy.
 
To argue that it should be accepted on "trust" isn't critical thinking but pure unadulterated ideology.

What do you call it when someone dismisses it on "lack of trust" and then refuses efforts to take a closer look with a full investigation?
 
Which raises the question: Why would all the relevant intelligence agencies lie about this, especially as it is based on information that will, in all likelihood, be part of a congressional investigation and/or declassified at some point?

So many reasons. The biggest one is that like the FBIs law enforcement efforts, they think they are right.
 
Anytime you're ready, then.

Well by these standards I can just declare the source to be an authority and be done with it.

So, because I asked you to support your claim, you have deduced my view on separate topic and drew even further conclusions based on that?

Yes, well, combined with your other statements and arguments in this thread on this subject.

I pointed out the distinction before. Can you rectify in order to continue this line of argument or are you merely going to continue from a position of intellectual dishonesty?

I have declared the pope to be an "appropriate" authority, just like you did with the intelligence agencies. The arguments are equivalent. So do you accept that you have an immortal soul?

Evidence?

This entire thread as well as previous conversations with you. Your "you can't prove a negative" is a tell-tale sign, for one.

Let me ask you something, have you ever taken a course on logic or taught yourself a course on it? And I mean proper logic, not that "informal logic".

In case you missed mine from before, here are a few others

A logically valid argument from authority grounds a claim in the beliefs of one or more authoritative source(s), whose opinions are likely to be true on the relevant issue.

How likely? Do you have empirical evidence for this "likely to be true"?

Besides, since when is RationalWiki an authority? Do you or they even know what the term "logically valid" means? Clearly they don't.
 
The difference is that, with time and effort, we can access the information being used by the authorities I mentioned. Heck, the stuff we're talking about here may be eventually declassified.

Is there information the Pope is using that we can have access to?

I wouldn't hang my hat on that difference, if I were you.

There are various historical figures who are known to us only through the testimony of others. When a sufficient number of contemporaries agree that this or that fellow existed, and their accounts are similar enough, and if we there is reason to believe these accounts were written independently and without common prior (lost) source, then we ought to conclude it is probable the person existed (ignoring, of course, fantastical tales).

But we cannot reasonably expect any better evidence than such testimony.
 
Why don't we ask a former CIA director?

And your source for that quote? Were you there? Have you seen video footage of him saying it? (Not likely, given the situation in which it was written down.)

So, do give me the probability that he really said it, given the testimony of those who were there, and then tell me the probability that the CIA aims to make the public believe only false stuff, given that Casey said so.

Let's follow your distinction and restrict ourselves to "meaningful" reasoning.
 

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