Racism is baseless

It didn't take long to find disagreement with the above:

Slightly over half of all biological/physical anthropologists today believe in the traditional view that human races are biologically valid and real. Furthermore, they tend to see nothing wrong in defining and naming the different populations of Homo sapiens. The other half of the biological anthropology community believes either that the traditional racial categories for humankind are arbitrary and meaningless, or that at a minimum there are better ways to look at human variation than through the "racial lens."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html

Sounds like there's quite a debate about it going on.

No one ever said there wasn't a debate about it. Here we are in the middle of one. I would further take journalistic reportage of scientists' views and conclusions with the requisite grain of salt. Through what polling system did PBS arrive at their percentages?
 
No one ever said there wasn't a debate about it. Here we are in the middle of one. I would further take journalistic reportage of scientists' views and conclusions with the requisite grain of salt. Through what polling system did PBS arrive at their percentages?

That wasn't a poll, that was the opinion of Dr. George W. Gill, a professor of anthropology at the University of Wyoming. I guess PBS asked him for the "race is science" side of the debate.
 
Certainly genetic clusters are scientifically valid. Certainly categorization of human populations according to observable physical characteristics and geographic ancestry is a convenient way to distinguish populations from one another.

The problem arises when, for example, the genetic cluster called "European" in the NYT chart supplied by Delvo does not correspond to the way "white" is used in any population or language. Scots and Iraqis are held by neither group as belonging to the same "race". In that instance and innumerable others, the term "race" becomes vague and inaccurate.

In short, scientifically based gene clusters do not match social ideas of race. If I were pressed to devise a more accurate system of identifying populations, I would begin by chucking out the outmoded, long-abused system of race with all its superior-inferior connotations and begin anew with genetic clusters and subpopulations.

Which is precisely what we're talking about trying to do here.
 
Last edited:
It didn't take long to find disagreement with the above:

Slightly over half of all biological/physical anthropologists today believe in the traditional view that human races are biologically valid and real. Furthermore, they tend to see nothing wrong in defining and naming the different populations of Homo sapiens. The other half of the biological anthropology community believes either that the traditional racial categories for humankind are arbitrary and meaningless, or that at a minimum there are better ways to look at human variation than through the "racial lens."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/does-race-exist.html

Sounds like there's quite a debate about it going on.
I've quoted something similar at least twice upthread. As far as I'm concerned they seem wrong about the current scientific consensus, they also seem wrong that racial classification was all about justifying slavery. Having said that, my knowledge of those aspects of the topic is what I Googled. That they are wrong that there is no such thing as race seems to me to be manifest to anybody with eyes.
 
I've quoted something similar at least twice upthread. As far as I'm concerned they seem wrong about the current scientific consensus, they also seem wrong that racial classification was all about justifying slavery. Having said that, my knowledge of those aspects of the topic is what I Googled. That they are wrong that there is no such thing as race seems to me to be manifest to anybody with eyes.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've abandoned the notion that the majority of scientists reject race. Whatever the exact percentages, I'm content to side with those scientists who see it as vague, inaccurate, and unscientific.

Linnaeus was not the first person to categorize human populations according to race, but due to his credibility -- derived from creating the taxonomic system still used today -- his racial classification was the most widely influential. Unfortunately, that system included such horrors as blacks being labeled as lazy, etc. Those labels were then used to justify slavery and oppression of blacks.

Can you not see that this system is problematic and needs replacement with something more accurate?
 
The problem arises when, for example, the genetic cluster called "European" in the NYT chart supplied by Delvo does not correspond to the way "white" is used in any population or language. Scots and Iraqis are held by neither group as belonging to the same "race". In that instance and innumerable others, the term "race" becomes vague and inaccurate.
I suggest in bringing up the Scots and the Iraqis you have moved to such a specificity in terms of race that you have in fact moved to a different nuance of race that is associated with national identity, that is quite a bit less used these days. In any case, are Iraqi Kurds the same race as the majority? It probably depends on the conversation.... if one is talking about the global population (as in the recent diagram) one probably wouldn't. If you were talking about race in the Middle East, you might.

I don't see that this is an argument that race is baseless though.
 
I do not maintain that race is baseless. I maintain that it's a social construct derived from observable phenotypic traits and geographic ancestry, which overlaps ambiguously and inaccurately with genetic clusters, but is used to promote the superiority of populations and therefore must be abandoned in favor of a more accurate and less polemic system.
 
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've abandoned the notion that the majority of scientists reject race. Whatever the exact percentages, I'm content to side with those scientists who see it as vague, inaccurate, and unscientific.
OK.

Linnaeus was not the first person to categorize human populations according to race, but due to his credibility -- derived from creating the taxonomic system still used today -- his racial classification was the most widely influential. Unfortunately, that system included such horrors as blacks being labeled as lazy, etc. Those labels were then used to justify slavery and oppression of blacks.
Why does one of the many, or even several of the many, people who have developed such classification systems having thought blacks were lazy invalidate the whole project? I know I have cited at least one prominent example of an early and influential taxonomist who argued against the racist attitude you mention.

Incidentally, if Europeans had known about clines and halotypes in the 1600s, wouldn't they just have used them to justify slavery?
 
Last edited:
OK.


Why does one of the many, or even several of the many, people who have developed such classification systems having thought blacks were lazy invalidate the whole project? I know I have cited at least one prominent example of an early and influential taxonomist who argued against the racist attitude you mention.

Because it was Linnaeus' system, labeling blacks as inferior, that influenced all those which followed.
 
The chart only vaguely agrees with haplogroup migration... There are 7 know major mitochondrial Haplogroups
Well of course if you compare one thing to another completely separate and unrelated thing you don't get the same results. But nobody ever said you would. This is like telling a martial arts expert that he can't classify martial arts or their schools based on how the participants move their bodies, because the results of doing so are mysteriously different from classifying them by the colors of their clothes... or telling someone who's into orchestra music that she can't classify compositions based on the style and sound of the music because the results of doing so are mysteriously different from putting them in alphabetical order by their composers' last names.

How in the world is ANY single unbroken non-recombining genetic unit such as a mitochondrial genome (or a Y chromosome or a single gene in any other chromosome) supposed to have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with a statistical clustering effect across hundreds/thousands of separate, free-to-recombine genes?

Scots, Israelis and Iraqis would never agree that they are the same "race"
Of course they would, at least those who had any anthropological perspective on the world outside their own villages; "Caucasoid" has been the anthropological word for that combined group for ages. Nobody ever claimed there couldn't be variation at a smaller scale within such a race.
 
did anyone ever even try to figure out the "race" of these girls??? Or what it would tell you about them or where they were from.
Because I like quizzes, Asian northern, then Asian southern?

But I do agree with you macdoc.

(Tell me how close I got)
 
The older girl is a direct descendant ...ie genetical direct of a Macedonian Queen who was the leader of the legendary Amazons.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xv26gp_secrets-of-the-dead-amazon-warrior-women_shortfilms

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/amazon-warrior-women-clues-evidence/1471/

This is what the rest of her family looks like ( not exactly ...I've seen the family photo but none look like her or even close )

gobi-family.jpg


Both girls are Mongolian...so pretty close....both will have medical issues if any associated with Mongolian Nomads as a subpopulation.

The other girl is Mongolian ....some demographics of that human subpopulation
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/1064510/1/
 
Last edited:
Because it was Linnaeus' system, labeling blacks as inferior, that influenced all those which followed.
There were taxonomy systems before him that didn't label blacks as inferior. There were taxonomy systems after him that didn't label blacks as inferior. Some of them quite explicitly argued against such a notion of superiority. What do you mean by influenced? Such an idea doesn't seem to be present in the thinking of physical anthropologists who agree that race is a useful classification system, so it doesn't seem to be intrinsic to the classification system.

This feels like either poisoning the well, or an ethical argument and I don't see how one can make an ethical argument to show that racism is baseless.
 
Last edited:
I wonder how many sub groups you can pull out for the racial group 'black'? How many african sub populations, do we include people from southern India. Are the paler Khoi-San black or high-yellow?

What basis is there for the category 'black' being meaningful?
 
I wonder how many sub groups you can pull out for the racial group 'black'? How many african sub populations, do we include people from southern India. Are the paler Khoi-San black or high-yellow?
This would depend on the purpose of your taxonomic system surely? You'd probably get an answer to that type of question from a physical anthropologist of the type discussed in this thread already, but they don't really use the word "black" as a category so far as I'm aware. That's more part of the rule of thumb simplified system that the general public use (and is often muddled up with ethnographic ideas of "black"). You certainly can divide the category up more.

What basis is there for the category 'black' being meaningful?
What do you mean by meaningful? I take it you accept that it tells one with a good level of reliability where the majority of the persons ancestors lived until, say a couple of hundred years ago - i.e. probably not Finland. It clearly also still maps with some degree of accuracy to ethic groups and related cultural and social information. For a forensic scientist that type of category appears to be useful when, say, assigning a race to a skull. It can clearly also be useful in indicating who you are talking about in a situation where black people are in a minority. Could you unpack what you mean by meaningful?
 
Last edited:
Incidentally, is anybody still arguing that races don't exist as meaningful biological categories? given that more physical anthropologists than not appear to think the term is meaningful, with the apparent divide being whether the anthropologist is interested in the physical structure of the body, or blood groups.

Clearly Vortigern99 isn't (apologies for misunderstanding you), but I think macdoc and lomiller were.
 
Last edited:
There were taxonomy systems before him that didn't label blacks as inferior. There were taxonomy systems after him that didn't label blacks as inferior. Some of them quite explicitly argued against such a notion of superiority. What do you mean by influenced? Such an idea doesn't seem to be present in the thinking of physical anthropologists who agree that race is a useful classification system, so it doesn't seem to be intrinsic to the classification system.

This feels like either poisoning the well, or an ethical argument and I don't see how one can make an ethical argument to show that racism is baseless.

The first modern classification of races was François Bernier's New division of Earth by the different species or races which inhabit it (1684). Evidently (I haven't read it) it did not introduce perceived superior-inferior traits into the categories... but Bernier's was not the system that influenced Western thinking on the subject.

In the 18th century the scientific classification of phenotypic variation was frequently coupled with racist ideas about innate predispositions of different groups, always attributing the most desirable features to the White, European race and arranging the other races along a continuum of progressively undesirable attributes. (Slotkin, J. S. (1965). "The Eighteenth Century". Readings in early Anthropology. Methuen Publishing. pp. 175–243.)

In 1735 Carl Linnaeus -- who was deemed highly reputable due to his invention of binomial nomenclature/zoological taxonomy (as in genus Homo, species sapiens) -- divided our species into continental varieties of europaeus, asiaticus, americanus, and afer, each associated with a different humour: sanguine, melancholic, choleric, and phlegmatic, respectively. (Slotkin, J. S. (1965). "The Eighteenth Century". Readings in early Anthropology. Methuen Publishing. pp. 175–243.)

Linnaeus described Homo sapiens europaeus as active, acute, and adventurous, whereas Homo sapiens afer was said to be crafty, lazy, and careless. (Graves, Joseph L (2001). The Emperor's New Clothes: Biological Theories of Race at the Millennium. Rutgers University Press.)

A word about Linnaeus and why he was so influential on his contemporaries and those who followed after. At the time of his death, he was one of the most acclaimed scientists in Europe. The philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau sent him the message: "Tell him I know no greater man on earth." Goethe wrote: "With the exception of Shakespeare and Spinoza, I know no one among the no longer living who has influenced me more strongly." Swedish author August Strindberg wrote: "Linnaeus was in reality a poet who happened to become a naturalist". Among other compliments, Linnaeus has been called Princeps botanicorum (Prince of Botanists), "The Pliny of the North," and "The Second Adam". He is also considered as one of the founders of modern ecology.

influence, v. to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something. In this case, the whole of Western thought was influenced by Linnaeus' ascription of superior-inferior traits to his proposed races.

In 1775 Johann Friedrich Blumenbach proposed five major divisions: the Caucasoid race, the Mongoloid race, the Ethiopian race (later termed Negroid), the American Indian race, and the Malayan race, but he did not propose any hierarchy among the races. Blumenbach also noted the graded transition in appearances from one group to adjacent groups and suggested that "one variety of mankind does so sensibly pass into the other, that you cannot mark out the limits between them". Blumenbach seems to have hit the nail on the head with respect to what we now know as genetic clusters. Unfortunately, his measured and careful system of classification was not the one that took hold of the popular or scientific imagination of the 18th, 19th or 20th centuries.

During the 17th - 19th centuries, folk beliefs about group differences merged with scientific explanations of those differences. A. Smedley called this an "ideology of race". (Smedley, A. (1999). Race in North America: origin and evolution of a worldview (2nd ed.). Boulder: Westview Press. ISBN 0813334489.) According to this ideology, races are primordial, natural, enduring and distinct. Subsequent influential classifications by Georges Buffon, Petrus Camper and Christoph Meiners all classified "Negros" as inferior to Europeans. (Graves, 2001).

In the United States, the racial theories of Thomas Jefferson were influential. He saw Africans as inferior to Whites -- especially in regards to their intellect, and imbued with unnatural sexual appetites, but described Native Americans as equals to whites. (Graves again).

I hope by now you can see that, ever since Linnaeus, the entire system of race has been rife with error, and prone to abuse from those in power who wish to use it to subjugate groups they declare to be inferior. Surely I don't need to enumerate the many historical pitfalls of that murderously unjust system.

Upthread you asked me to offer an alternate system of classification, and while I have done so ("In short, scientifically based gene clusters do not match social ideas of race. If I were pressed to devise a more accurate system of identifying populations, I would begin by chucking out the outmoded, long-abused system of race with all its superior-inferior connotations and begin anew with genetic clusters and subpopulations."), you have ignored this, and continue to press me about how Linnaeus could have been so influential, what I mean by "influenced", etc., as though I am your personal researcher.

Speaking of influence, words influence our thought processes, how we perceive people and objects and events. The word "race" is rife with historical horrors, dripping with the blood of millions, swollen with the injustice of slavery, oppression, war, apartheid. Tear down that conception and rebuild it with the more accurate and valid conception of genetic clusters and geographic ancestry (which do not correspond to mistaken, superior-inferior social or folk ideas about race), and let's move forward as a community of human beings rather than a handful of groups divided by our perceived physical differences.
 
Last edited:
The first modern classification of races was François Bernier's New division of Earth by the different species or races which inhabit it (1684). Evidently (I haven't read it) it did not introduce perceived superior-inferior traits into the categories... but Bernier's was not the system that influenced Western thinking on the subject.
Absolutely, I've been reading up on this as well. Before him there was Bruno, again not racist, but clearly a naive system of classification in comparison.

influence, v. to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something. In this case, the whole of Western thought was influenced by Linnaeus' ascription of superior-inferior traits to his proposed races.
OK. SO the issue is with the traits he associated with races, rather than his system of categorization itself.

In 1775 Johann Friedrich Blumenbach proposed five major divisions: the Caucasoid race, the Mongoloid race, the Ethiopian race (later termed Negroid), the American Indian race, and the Malayan race, but he did not propose any hierarchy among the races. Blumenbach also noted the graded transition in appearances from one group to adjacent groups and suggested that "one variety of mankind does so sensibly pass into the other, that you cannot mark out the limits between them". Blumenbach seems to have hit the nail on the head with respect to what we now know as genetic clusters. Unfortunately, his measured and careful system of classification was not the one that took hold of the popular or scientific imagination of the 18th, 19th or 20th centuries.
I had this from Wikipedia (apologies for the source):
Johann Friedrich Blumenbach[edit]

Johann Friedrich Blumenbach

Blumenbach's five races.
Johann Friedrich Blumenbach (1752–1840) divided the human species into five races in 1779, later founded on crania research (description of human skulls), and called them (1793/1795):

the Caucasian race
the Mongoloid race
the Malay race
the Negroid race
the American race
(See also color terminology for race.)

These five groupings together with two other additional groupings called the Australoid race (1940s) and the Capoid race (early 1960s), making a total of seven groupings in all, are today known as the traditional racial classifications or the historical definition of race. These groupings are still used today in historical anthropology that describes human migration and in forensics.
Is that wrong? It looks from that as if Blumenbach's system is the one that became popular. Either way, I look at those races and you have a taxonomist developing a system of races that you descibe as "measured and careful system of classification" which uses the categories Caucasian, and Negroid. So, the categories themselves aren't an issue. It's people associating phlegm with one and bile with another that is the issue. None of your argument here is against racial taxonomy. It's like arguing that because racists have used evolution to justify some list of terrible things we need to find some other way of explaining how animal species arrise. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm not at all sure I care what racists have done, or may do in the future with these categories.

I hope by now you can see that, ever since Linnaeus, the entire system of race has been rife with error, and prone to abuse from those in power who wish to use it to subjugate groups they declare to be inferior. Surely I don't need to enumerate the many historical pitfalls of that murderously unjust system.
I agree that Linnauus is clearly wrong. His system is based on the humours and their associated characteristics and includes a category for mythological creatures. The humours were generally used to describe human nature back then, so its hardly surprising to see them. The categories themselves though, with the exception of mythological humans seems to map tolerably well to Blumenbach, which you described as a "measured and careful system of classification" so, losing the humours and associated traits, and the mythical creatures is Linnaus such a bad system?

Upthread you asked me to offer an alternate system of classification, and while I have done so ("In short, scientifically based gene clusters do not match social ideas of race. If I were pressed to devise a more accurate system of identifying populations, I would begin by chucking out the outmoded, long-abused system of race with all its superior-inferior connotations and begin anew with genetic clusters and subpopulations."), you have ignored this, and continue to press me about how Linnaeus could have been so influential, what I mean by "influenced", etc., as though I am your personal researcher.
I didn't intentionally ignore this. I haven't received much in the way of a response from my research either (not meaning you specifically). In so far as your classification system goes. I can't see genetic clusters. What I can see is differences in bone structure, skin, hair etc and map that onto things like ancestral geography. If your system maps to obvious differences in terms of such things, then fine. If you can do better than the current system, then it will presumably improve the work of forensic pathologists and others besides. I'm skeptical that your system is better at doing this.

Speaking of influence, words influence our thought processes, how we perceive people and objects and events. The word "race" is rife with historical horrors, dripping with the blood of millions, swollen with the injustice of slavery, oppression, war, apartheid. Tear down that conception and rebuild it with the more accurate and valid conception of genetic clusters and geographic ancestry (which do not correspond to mistaken, superior-inferior social or folk ideas about race), and let's move forward as a community of human beings rather than a handful of groups divided by our perceived physical differences.
This is a social justice project. You are talking about how you would go out and build a new concept of race. Personally, I don't think you can... since if it was easy and obvious how to do this, forensic pathologists and physical anthropologists would already be using this new system. If you are able to come up with a new classification system that allows me to put people into groups based on obvious physical characteristics like skin colour, bone structure, hair etc... that indicate geographic ancestory (based on the genetic clusters you mentioned) or some other culturally meaningful group then knock yourself out, but I don't see what you will have achieved, since people will still be able to discriminate based on your groups as they have been doing since the beginning of recorded history. I don't see an easy road to getting a definition change to race that completely blows away the old categories gaining cultural acceptance in any kind of short timescale given the decades of investment in racial pride etc...

Honestly, I have no idea what your belief that you can build a better taxonomy of race has to do with whether racism is baseless.
 
Last edited:
Your reading comprehension, for lack of a better word, sucks. I'm done arguing with you over your lack of understanding of what I've written.
 
Your reading comprehension, for lack of a better word, sucks. I'm done arguing with you over your lack of understanding of what I've written.
Given that we managed to argue for several pages about whether or not race existed, when we both agreed it did.... it would seem both of us have comprehension difficulties, or are explaining ourselves badly. For myself, I would still be interested in knowing what the simple bones of your argument are. For what its worth, mine has been the following since page 1.

Given the example given by the OP and the definition of racism the OP is using - that is to say, having a negative opinion of a race due to a statistically associated characteristic that one attributes to a genetic property then there are good and bad ways to argue against this racism:
BAD
1. There is no such thing as race. This has been argued on the thread.
2. There are no negative characteristics caused by genetics statistically associated with races.
3. In the 18th Century people had pseudo-scientific ideas about race.

GOOD
1. For most such characteristics, while we can't absolutely say there is no genetic component, there isn't much/any evidence that such a genetic component exists.
2. For most such characteristics, the differences between individuals within races is greater than the average difference between races (although this doesn't look to be the case in the OPs example.

The most disappointing thing to me about this thread is that the OP never made it clear why he believed the man in his story attributed the lack of education, unemployment etc... to race rather than culture. Its not obvious to me from the story how the OP could know this. This sort of view seems to be attributed to other people far more than it is admitted to.
 

Back
Top Bottom