Do we dare to call ourselves Skeptics?

Skeptic: one who is yet undecided as to what is true; one who is looking or inquiring for what is true; an inquirer after facts or reasons. the method of suspended judgment, systematic doubt, or criticism before any conclusion is arrived at.

Neo-skeptic(Debunker) – one who holds an a priori belief that the phenomena does not exist or can't be true, therefore, it is just a matter of finding a way to explain it away.

Neo-sceptics cloak denialism in the language of rational skepticism and critical thinking and start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support what they already believe.

A Veiled Believer:

A supposedly forward-thinking person who oddly expects a sceptic to thoroughly think about such things as Mothman/Bigfoot or Psychic powers before banishing them to the Bin'o'Bollocks (where they rightfully belong) usually because they themselves harbour weird needs for such things to exist and cannot handle accept an outright dismissal from other people regarding the existence of such non-existent things.
 
I'm a ghost hunter, not active much these days, but I've been on this board a while now without any problems.

The main reason for this is the fact I don't post claims I can't back up.

This means claims I can personally account for, and independent research links from sources with a .edu internet address.

Links to other ghost hunters, paranormal sham orgs, and woo sites are never the way to go.

Needless to say, I've never posted a ghost thread on this board, and I am fine with this because it forces me to work harder. Working harder has lead me to solid answers which do not involve the paranormal.

As to the "OMG!" posts...those tend to show up on threads started by the usual suspects who have a history of woo-spreading.
 
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Neo-sceptics cloak denialism in the language of rational skepticism and critical thinking and start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support what they already believe.
This makes the false assumption that said conclusion was drawn before any evidence was assessed.
 
After looking at an article titled “What is Scepticism” by Brian Dunning, I asked myself “do we all dare to call ourselves Skeptics?”

Abstracts from his article…
Skepticism is the process of applying reason and critical thinking to determine validity.
Skepticism is, or should be, an extraordinarily powerful and positive influence on the world.
Skepticism is about redirecting attention, influence, and funding away from worthless superstitions and popular misinformation toward projects and ideas that are evidenced to be beneficial to humanity and to the world.
Skepticism is an essential and meaningful component of the search for truth.

Most importantly he states: “The scientific method is central to skepticism” and a skeptic “maintains a doubting attitude toward values, plans, statements”

In light of the above I have a serious concern about the way people in the Forum respond to seemingly well thought through information contained in posts. Responses such as these are worth nothing… nothing and do not in my opinion contribute anything to a search for truth… or whatever.
“Really?”
“OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!”
“Uhguuu!”

As light of the above I suggest that people responding to posts should:
Make an effort to understand the point of view expressed in the post.
Apply critical thinking in evaluating the content of the post.
Define your own point of view and present it in a logical way.

I feel we should be very skeptic about our own inputs to the Forum.
You are free to feel that way, but it will not happen in mass. If you have trouble with that (and, honestly, many have) then you are free to act as you choose, but I must assure you that you are not at all the only person who would love that but we have a lot more personality/ies here so it is not going to happen - or if it is forced, the forum will dwindle further until it is just another broken down black hole in the internet. YMMV, but you would be wrong.

Also, I believe you meant sceptical in your ending sentence.
 
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This makes the false assumption that said conclusion was drawn before any evidence was assessed.
I think that's one of the problems we often see here - the presumption by many that their old, tired, well worn arguments are somehow new to us all, and deserve the attention we would give to new ideas. In my wife's family, the phrase often comes up, "he thinks he's just discovered America."

I also think, though one might wish it otherwise, that it's a mistake to presume that the duty of a skeptic is to make the world better. One would like to make the world better by cutting through superstition and stupidity, but it's a byproduct.
 
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I also think, though one might wish it otherwise, that it's a mistake to presume that the duty of a skeptic is to make the world better. One would like to make the world better by cutting through superstition and stupidity, but it's a byproduct.
My goal is to move humanity forward toward critical thinking, even if my efforts don't move us more than millimeter. Trump's election is one giant step back. But the UK and parts of the EU moving away from god beliefs is a step forward.
 
Neo-skeptic(Debunker) – one who holds an a priori belief that the phenomena does not exist or can't be true, therefore, it is just a matter of finding a way to explain it away.
That's because the phenomenon doesn't exist. It just can't be true.

How can you possibly think that the phenomenon is real? :confused:
 
The temptation is strong here just to say "lolwut?"; but I'll resist it (for the time being), and instead say...

There's another, equally wrong, alternative to "undecided as to what is true" besides just "holds an a priori belief that the phenomenon does not exist or can't be true"; can you guess what it is?

Skepticism is a process of demanding then assessing evidence in order to reach a conclusion- there's nothing about the process that requires it to continue endlessly in dithering uncertainty.

Please, inform me about your lolwut. In the meantime, try this: Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows a willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity.
 
Please, inform me about your lolwut. In the meantime, try this: Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows a willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity.

Ok, and...? What, the "suspended judgment" thing? What's the point of seeking and assessing evidence if you're never going to reach a conclusion from it?
 
Yeah, this.

When you've seen the same daft claims for the 100th or 1000th time, you start to figure maybe it isn't worth running over all the details again. At some point, you have to figure, "The answer is out there, and if this person really wanted to know it, they'd have found it already."

And it's not just that.

If we go back fifty years ago there was a reason to look into the claims of"psi", after all we had all these anecdotes and apparently some examples of people using "psi".

And what happened?

Well scientists were intrigued about this potential for epoch making scientific breakthroughs so they researched these claims. Sadly the anecdotes and examples were found not to be evidence of "psi" they ended up simply being explained by the bog standard cognitive behaviours of humans, confusion, memory, deception etc.

Which is where we stand today so unless something new comes to light there simply is no reason to re-research the anecdotes and apparent examples.

Modern skepticism is a tool and not a conclusion, when something has been researched and "proved" to be false or true to continue to be "skeptical" is an error in reasoning.
 
Please, inform me about your lolwut. In the meantime, try this: Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows a willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity.

Which does not preclude coming to a conclusion.
 
Ok, and...? What, the "suspended judgment" thing? What's the point of seeking and assessing evidence if you're never going to reach a conclusion from it?

I think that's probably his/her mistake, the definition doesn't mean you continue for ever more to "suspend[ed] judgement", it means you suspend that judgement until the evidence allows you to make a judgement/come to a conclusion.
 
After looking at an article titled “What is Scepticism” by Brian Dunning, I asked myself “do we all dare to call ourselves Skeptics?”

Abstracts from his article…
Skepticism is the process of applying reason and critical thinking to determine validity.
Skepticism is, or should be, an extraordinarily powerful and positive influence on the world. Skepticism is about redirecting attention, influence, and funding away from worthless superstitions and popular misinformation toward projects and ideas that are evidenced to be beneficial to humanity and to the world.
Skepticism is an essential and meaningful component of the search for truth.

Most importantly he states: “The scientific method is central to skepticism” and a skeptic “maintains a doubting attitude toward values, plans, statements”

I reject the highlighted bits. (got a link ?)

Skepticism, or rational, critical thought have absolutely no obligation to be a "positive" influence" nor meet any other social criteria. It's entirely possible, for example, that religious belief has had a positive influence on believers lives & society, but skepticism demands the entire structure be questioned, doubted, and IMO rejected, despite any positive value.

I think "the scientific method"(SM) is widely misunderstood and instead used as a form of 'religion' (with unquestioned tenets) by many. The SM is a schema for including/excluding empirical theories into a congruent whole. Theories are rejected on the basis that their cannot be evidence on the claim (e.g. hidden variables); that they are inconsistent with the existing evidence base; and then by the peculiar basis that they make unnecessary presuppositions (Occam's razor). This last criteria can (and has) lead to false theories being included, while more successful theories would be rejected. Occam razor is not part of any tenet of rational or critical thought - it is a pragmatic rule that appears to work reasonably well in MODELLING the observable world in the long run.

SM exemplifies this one principal of skepticism (all theories are subject to question - no "settled science"), but is NOT foundational to skepticism. In fact SM includes this peculiar, and logically unsupportable rule. Further the scientific method is only applicable to empirical evidence and cannot be applied to logic or mathematical claims (which certainly must the the subject of skepticism too).

In light of the above I have a serious concern about the way people in the Forum respond to seemingly well thought through information contained in posts. Responses such as these are worth nothing… nothing and do not in my opinion contribute anything to a search for truth… or whatever.
“Really?”
“OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!”
“Uhguuu!”

Yes, I find these sorts of responses, when not followed up with some specific rational rebuttal out of place too. It's very disturbing to see that some poster makes a detailed argument, and the response is some disrespectful snark or a laughing-dog or roll-eyes gif. They make this more of a forum for emotionalism.

Another annoyance is that too many posts merely include a slur or other derogation in place of logical rebuttal. Calling someone a racists for disagreeing w/ point of Obama econ policy, calling someone an oppressor or greedy for pointing to difficulties in socialists econ policy idea, or even suggesting "Godwin's law", when someone makes a comparison to NAZI suppression of dissent. None of these have any bearing on the argument and none represent valid rebuttal.


As light of the above I suggest that people responding to posts should:
Make an effort to understand the point of view expressed in the post.
Apply critical thinking in evaluating the content of the post.
Define your own point of view and present it in a logical way.

I feel we should be very skeptic about our own inputs to the Forum.

Same. Posts might either support or rebut points of the OP argument, but the only criteria available should be evidence or logical considerations. I don't greatly care about so-n-so's emotional outbursts, tho' it's interesting that the same few posters appear incapable of anything else.



Imo, some people take their role as a sceptic, and most of the time, themselves, far too seriously.

I don't generally feel the need to conduct an experiment before saying such things as:

“Really?”
“OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!”
“Uhguuu!”

But if you fail to present any specific points of disagreement, with a rational or evidence based argument, then you are just lacing the forum with your emotional scat. Personally, "I don't generally feel the need .." to listen to your unevidenced OPINIONS, tho' I'd like to understand your ARGUMENTs. That is the point of the forum - no ? How do emotional utterance advance the forum ?

Fwiw I think lesswrong.com does a much better job of keeping arguments in the realm of reason.
 
The temptation is strong here just to say "lolwut?"; but I'll resist it (for the time being), and instead say...

There's another, equally wrong, alternative to "undecided as to what is true" besides just "holds an a priori belief that the phenomenon does not exist or can't be true"; can you guess what it is?

Skepticism is a process of demanding then assessing evidence in order to reach a conclusion- there's nothing about the process that requires it to continue endlessly in dithering uncertainty.

Please, don't inform me about your lolwut. In the meantime, try this: Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows a willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity. The bolded snippets are where the average neo-skeptic completely fails.

Been dealing with what neo-skeptics think critical thinking and skepticism is for a long time. The average person who comes here, stays, and then buys into the Group Think/Herd Mentality is actually drinking James Randi's purple kool-aide with a CSIclops chaser of phony baloney. What passes for skepticism is a very pale simulacrum of the real thing. J.R.s and CSIcloptics definition of a skeptic is nothing more than a way to close the loop to come up with a conclusion at all costs, especially if there isn't one.
Example: This clip is about Human Levitation in which Shameless Joe Nickell employs the Law of Implausible Plausibile™ Trying to make something fit where it doesn’t fit. Every explanation MUST be a plausible and mundane one, even when it doesn’t fit. *“It is better to be mundane and wrong than to be complex and right.” This is him trying to explain away the claims made about St. joseph of Cupertino, the Flying Friar. Go to 14:43 into the clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQjuolVAWx4

Shameless Joe gives what I would consider the quintessential example that best exemplifies neo-skepticism. It's nothing more that flimsy flimflam crap. Neo-skeptics would be better off watching CSI New York/Vegas/Miami to learn the proper way of investigating something. And guess what, even if you employing forensic investigational procedures where sometimes even science can't explain away something, you have to mark it as a cold case file. Some things/events, etc., can’t be explained away with the info and evidence available at that specific time and place.

*Irreverence in action
 
Fying friars? But a claim is a claim so add it to the sooper dooper metaskeptic's list of things that might be true if you can't disprove them, and must be true if you don't want to spend the time trying.

It sounds as if being a true skeptic according to some here means that one must always give credence to any nonsense and doubt the veracity of everything that makes sense, just in case.

I guess I'm glad to be in the neoskeptic camp if it means I don't have to worry about flying friars bumping into the windows. My neighbor across the street has some fryers, but they don't fly well either.
 
That's because the phenomenon doesn't exist. It just can't be true.

How can you possibly think that the phenomenon is real? :confused:

Are you trolling me? Or are you trying to punk me? I think you're saying that you know for absolutely sure that the phenomenon(UFO,B.Foot, etc.?) is not real. If that's what you're saying, then that's an extraordinary claim which, of course, demands extraordinary evidence and it also means the burden is on you, not me.

Whewww, I hope I construed that correctly. If not, please tell me what you consider "phenomenon" and how you arrived at the Godlike perch of omni-perception that knows all and sees all. Damn, I'd never claim to know the goings on of the universe on that scale.
 
Are you trolling me? Or are you trying to punk me? I think you're saying that you know for absolutely sure that the phenomenon(UFO,B.Foot, etc.?) is not real. If that's what you're saying, then that's an extraordinary claim which, of course, demands extraordinary evidence and it also means the burden is on you, not me.

To the bit I've highlighted I doubt anyone would say people don't report all sorts of "phenomenon".

However where you show that you are not a skeptic is when you assign a conclusion to such phenomenon i.e. "B.Foot" that is not supported by the actual evidence.
 
Please, don't inform me about your lolwut. In the meantime, try this: Skeptic - One who practices the method of suspended judgment, engages in rational and dispassionate reasoning as exemplified by the scientific method, shows a willingness to consider alternative explanations without prejudice based on prior beliefs, and who seeks out evidence and carefully scrutinizes its validity. The bolded snippets are where the average neo-skeptic completely fails.

Been dealing with what neo-skeptics think critical thinking and skepticism is for a long time. The average person who comes here, stays, and then buys into the Group Think/Herd Mentality is actually drinking James Randi's purple kool-aide with a CSIclops chaser of phony baloney. What passes for skepticism is a very pale simulacrum of the real thing. J.R.s and CSIcloptics definition of a skeptic is nothing more than a way to close the loop to come up with a conclusion at all costs, especially if there isn't one.
Example: This clip is about Human Levitation in which Shameless Joe Nickell employs the Law of Implausible Plausibile™ Trying to make something fit where it doesn’t fit. Every explanation MUST be a plausible and mundane one, even when it doesn’t fit. *“It is better to be mundane and wrong than to be complex and right.” This is him trying to explain away the claims made about St. joseph of Cupertino, the Flying Friar. Go to 14:43 into the clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQjuolVAWx4

Shameless Joe gives what I would consider the quintessential example that best exemplifies neo-skepticism. It's nothing more that flimsy flimflam crap. Neo-skeptics would be better off watching CSI New York/Vegas/Miami to learn the proper way of investigating something. And guess what, even if you employing forensic investigational procedures where sometimes even science can't explain away something, you have to mark it as a cold case file. Some things/events, etc., can’t be explained away with the info and evidence available at that specific time and place.

*Irreverence in action

Oh, I get it- if you make up strawman laws and snip definitions to characterize people who challenge what you want to believe, then you're a true skeptic, because you can- must- believe anything and never lose an argument about it. Your flying friar is a perfect example- pick a case from 350 years ago that's not subject to any replicable scientific test, and us "neo-skeptics" are toast. Game over, man- game over!!!!

IOW-
lolwut?
 
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