For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

[David Mo]

No indeed. The main concern was to transfer the responsibility for Jesus' death to the Jews. Why then did they invent a fictional story that he had been executed by the Romans on the order of the governor of the province? Why not have him murdered at the hands of a Jewish mob incited by the Sadducees or the Pharisees or the Essenes or the Sicarii, or whoever you want to blame? It's not as if such a story would have been impossible to compose; we have that story in the case of Stephen, and we have Paul about to be murdered by a mob and being rescued by the Romans, and taken into protective custody.

Exactly. The invention of a mythical crucified Jesus is at odds (clashes head) with the developpment of Christianity (its texts) in the first century. Even more if we delay this invention to the second century.

 

[dejudge]

No indeed. The main concern was to transfer the responsibility for Jesus' death to the Jews. Why then did they invent a fictional story that he had been executed by the Romans on the order of the governor of the province? Why not have him murdered at the hands of a Jewish mob incited by the Sadducees or the Pharisees or the Essenes or the Sicarii, or whoever you want to blame? It's not as if such a story would have been impossible to compose; we have that story in the case of Stephen, and we have Paul about to be murdered by a mob and being rescued by the Romans, and taken into protective custody.

Your questions are irrelevant!! "Why this and why that" do not change the fiction called Jesus.



1. Christian writimgs claim Jesus was born of a Ghost.

2. Christian writings claimed Jesus walked for miles on water.

3. Christian writings claim Jesus instantly transfigured in the presence of his disciples.

4. Christian writings claim Jesus was God Creator the Logos from the beginning.

5. Christian writings claim Jesus cooked fish for his disciples after the resurrection.

6. Christian writings claim Jesus ate fish after the resurrection.

7. Christian writings claim Jesus was the second Adam [the Lord from heaven]

Jesus is a fiction character worshipped as a God by people called Christians just like people of the very Roman Empire who worshiped multiple fiction characters as Gods.

Examine First Apology attributed to Justin Martyr.

First Apology

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter.

For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter...

Jesus was always a fiction character from the beginning [conception to ascension].

 

[dejudge]

.....If Aesculapius was (let me Euhemerise him!) in reality a human physician whose skills earned him the reputation of divinity, his being sent to heaven by a thunderbolt is entirely in order; but if Jesus was created entirely out of scriptural prophecies, with no historical reality, and thus freely invented to be a divinity attractive to Romans, then having him put to death as a public nuisance, and his companions arrested as bandits (as perceived by Rome), makes absolutely no sense.

It is your speculation that does not make sense. It was the very Romans who worshiped the character called Jesus claiming he was God of God, God Creator born of a Ghost without a human father [a Ghost/God/Man]

Jesus is three fiction characters in one-- a Ghost, a God and the second Adam.


http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/aristides-kay.html


Examine The Apology attributed to Aristides.

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.

And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.

This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished.

But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven.

In addition, Christian writings claim Jerusalem and the Jewish Templ were made desolate because the Jews killed the son of their own God.




http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho

......you alone may suffer that which you now justly suffer; and that your land may be desolate, and your cities burned with fire................Accordingly, these things have happened to you in fairness and justice, for you have slain the Just One, and His prophets before Him..

http://newadvent.org/fathers/0503.htm

Against the Jews attributed to Hippolytus

7. But why, O prophet, tell us, and for what reason, was the temple made desolate? Was it on account of that ancient fabrication of the calf?

Was it on account of the idolatry of the people?

Was it for the blood of the prophets?


Was it for the adultery and fornication of Israel?

By no means, he says; for in all these transgressions they always found pardon open to them, and benignity; but it was because they killed the Son of their Benefactor, for He is coeternal with the Father.

Jesus was always a product fiction.

 

[Craig B]

Your questions are irrelevant!! "Why this and why that" do not change the fiction called Jesus.

If you have such an impaired understanding of the purpose of asking questions, I fear that your knowledge of this subject will remain inadequate.

Here is something you might have asked about, instead of merely quoting Justin Martyr. What should you have asked about? This, which you note in your post. Both these statements are from gJohn, which is their primary source.

4. Christian writings claim Jesus was God Creator the Logos from the beginning.
5. Christian writings claim Jesus cooked fish for his disciples after the resurrection.

Have you never wondered "why?" About that? The eternal Creator Logos kindles a fire on a lakeside beach and cooks up a breakfast of some grilled fish for his old friends. This doesn't inspire you to ask "why?" That's the sort of thing I wonder about, because it seems so strange that two such incongruous statements should be found in the same book.

 

[Brainache]

If you have such an impaired understanding of the purpose of asking questions, I fear that your knowledge of this subject will remain inadequate.

Here is something you might have asked about, instead of merely quoting Justin Martyr. What should you have asked about? This, which you note in your post. Both these statements are from gJohn, which is their primary source. Have you never wondered "why?" About that? The eternal Creator Logos kindles a fire on a lakeside beach and cooks up a breakfast of some grilled fish for his old friends. This doesn't inspire you to ask "why?" That's the sort of thing I wonder about, because it seems so strange that two such incongruous statements should be found in the same book.

Well, obviously because it's all fiction and as we know anything can happen in a fiction story... I'm just annoyed that gJohn doesn't include killer robots and sexy space vixens...

 

[dejudge]

If you have such an impaired understanding of the purpose of asking questions, I fear that your knowledge of this subject will remain inadequate.

Your questions do not show that you have much understanding of belief in fiction in antiquity.

Your Questions have zero negative effect on the argument that Jesus was fiction invented in the 2nd century or later to explain the fall of the Jewish Temple c 70 CE.

It is you who have impaired understanding of Jewish and Greek/Roman mythology.

Jesus was always a fiction character--a water walking, transfiguring, son of a ghost without a human father--the Logos God Creator--the Lord God from heaven--the firstborn of the dead.

Here is something you might have asked about, instead of merely quoting Justin Martyr. What should you have asked about? This, which you note in your post. Both these statements are from gJohn, which is their primary source. Have you never wondered "why?" About that? The eternal Creator Logos kindles a fire on a lakeside beach and cooks up a breakfast of some grilled fish for his old friends. This doesn't inspire you to ask "why?" That's the sort of thing I wonder about, because it seems so strange that two such incongruous statements should be found in the same book.

Again, your questions are really of little use. It is most amusing that you are wondering why incongruous statements are found in the monstrous fables called the NT--a compilation of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

You appear to have very little knowledge of belief in mythology in antiquity and up to this very day.

The author of gJohn was obviously writing fiction [incongruous implausible non-historical accounts] which people in the Roman Empire BELIEVED just like people today believe the very same gJohn.

The very Nicene Creed of the Church documents that people in the Roman Empire believed fiction characters were figures of history.

 

[David Mo]

Well, obviously because it's all fiction and as we know anything can happen in a fiction story... I'm just annoyed that gJohn doesn't include killer robots and sexy space vixens...

Homer tells the story of gods and men around Ilion. And Ilion existed. It is not impossible that legendary stories are speaking of real events in a legendary way. See La Chanson de Roland also. Dejudge litanies and quotes from apologets are absolutely irrelevant. All depend on the arguments presented, not on the recit of mantras about the legendary aspects of the gospels and other still more irrelevant testimonies.
Discusing with someone that don't understand the nature of the problem is useless.

 

[Brainache]

Homer tells the story of gods and men around Ilion. And Ilion existed. It is not impossible that legendary stories are speaking of real events in a legendary way. See La Chanson de Roland also. Dejudge litanies and quotes from apologets are absolutely irrelevant. All depend on the arguments presented, not on the recit of mantras about the legendary aspects of the gospels and other still more irrelevant testimonies.
Discusing with someone that don't understand the nature of the problem is useless.

I agree 100%.

 

[dejudge]

Homer tells the story of gods and men around Ilion. And Ilion existed. It is not impossible that legendary stories are speaking of real events in a legendary way. See La Chanson de Roland also. Dejudge litanies and quotes from apologets are absolutely irrelevant. All depend on the arguments presented, not on the recit of mantras about the legendary aspects of the gospels and other still more irrelevant testimonies.
Discusing with someone that don't understand the nature of the problem is useless.

It must also be obvious to you that it is not impossible that Jesus was a product of fiction.


The fact is that no-one can or will ever present historical evidence to support the argument that Jesus was really a figure of history.

It is those who argue that Jesus was a figure of history who have problems and know that they have problems and will continue to have problems because they never ever had any historical evidence.

The fact is that all the stories of Jesus are from the 2nd century or later and are compilations of implausible fiction, forgeries or false attribution.

All the characters surrounding Jesus [his supposed mother, his relatives, his chosen disciples, his supposed Jewish followers and Paul] are all undocumented in all writings attributed to contemporary writers.

The fact is that Christian writers claimed their Jesus was a water walking, transfiguring son of a Ghost without a human father--the Logos--God Creator.

The argument that Jesus was a figure of fiction and invented no earlier than the 2nd century or later cannot be overturned or be contradicted by anyone [Scholar or not].

 

[dejudge]

I don't think anyone is claiming that the Greeks or Romans were worshipping Jesus, and had abandoned all other Gods, by as early as 70 CE. So you are attacking a position that nobody is defending.

What absurd bizarre contradiction you post.

You seem to have forgotten that you argue that a character called Paul, before c 70 CE, wrote to the Romans and people in the Greek city of Corinth about the worship of a character called Jesus [IU XU] as God.


1. Romans 1.7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

1 Corinthians 1

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is most hilarious that you cannot even remember your own argument.

If letters under the name of Paul to the Romans and Greeks were authentic then Romans and Greeks were worshiping Jesus as a God since before c 70 CE.

The NOMINA SACRA for Jesus is found multiple times in the letters to the Romans and people of Greece.

 

[Craig B]

What absurd bizarre contradiction you post.

You seem to have forgotten that you argue that a character called Paul, before c 70 CE, wrote to the Romans and people in the Greek city of Corinth about the worship of a character called Jesus [IU XU] as God.


1. Romans 1.7


1 Corinthians 1

It is most hilarious that you cannot even remember your own argument.

If letters under the name of Paul to the Romans and Greeks were authentic then Romans and Greeks were worshiping Jesus as a God since before c 70 CE.

The NOMINA SACRA for Jesus is found multiple times in the letters to the Romans and people of Greece.

You don't even believe Paul existed, so you can't believe that they worshipped Jesus at all prior to 70 CE. My point is, that even if some Greeks and Romans did do, they didn't all do so. Therefore most people worshipped other gods. Worshippers ofJesus were a small minority even centuries later.

 

[dejudge]

You don't even believe Paul existed, so you can't believe that they worshipped Jesus at all prior to 70 CE. My point is, that even if some Greeks and Romans did do, they didn't all do so. Therefore most people worshipped other gods. Worshippers ofJesus were a small minority even centuries later.

Again, your posts are contradictory nonsense. You argue that letters under the name of Paul to the Romans and the Corinthians [a city in ancient Greece] were composed before c 70 CE without a shred of historical evidence.

It is you who believe that Romans and Greeks were worshipping Jesus as a God as stated in the so-called Pauline Epistles.

You have zero historical evidence to support your baseless statement that there were worshippers of Jesus and that the worshippers of Jesus were a small minority before c 70 CE.

Your assumptions about Jesus, Paul and worshippers prior to c 70 CE are nothing more than idle propaganda ..

We already know that you will never ever present any historical evidence to support your claims.

We already know that all stories about Jesus, his mother, relatives, his disciples, Paul and worshippers are all from the 2nd century or later.

There is nothing but non-contemporary fiction which were unknown by known contemporary writers of antiquity.

Jesus and Paul are 2nd century or later invented fiction characters.

My argument cannot be contradicted by anyone [Scholar or not]

There is no historical evidence to do so.

 

[David Mo]

Jesus and Paul are 2nd century or later invented fiction characters.

My argument cannot be contradicted by anyone [Scholar or not]

There is no historical evidence to do so.

Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

 

[dejudge]

Jesus and Paul are 2nd century or later invented fiction characters.

My argument cannot be contradicted by anyone [Scholar or not]

There is no historical evidence to do so.

Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

Have you any historical evidence for Jesus and Paul?

It is simply absurd to assume Jesus and Paul existed because Thales of Miletus may or may not have existed.

You cannot now or ever present historical evidence for Jesus and Paul because it is already known that all stories about Jesus and Paul are from the 2nd century or later and that no contemporary writer mentioned Jesus, his parents, his relatives, his disciples, his apostles including Paul, his teachings or his death.

The stories about Jesus and Paul are a compilation of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

In letters under the name of Paul [Papyr1 46], Jesus is the Lord God.

The Lord God is a fiction character in Jewish mythology.

Jesus is a fiction character.

Paul is a fiction character in Acts and all letters under the name of Paul are either forgeries or false attribution.

In Acts there is zero mention of a single letter from Paul to any Church in the Roman Empire.

No-one [Scholar or not] can overturn the argument that Jesus and Paul are fiction characters and invented in the 2nd century or later.

 

[David Mo]

Have you any historical evidence for Jesus and Paul?

It is simply absurd to assume Jesus and Paul existed because Thales of Miletus may or may not have existed.

You cannot now or ever present historical evidence for Jesus and Paul because it is already known that all stories about Jesus and Paul are from the 2nd century or later and that no contemporary writer mentioned Jesus, his parents, his relatives, his disciples, his apostles including Paul, his teachings or his death.

The stories about Jesus and Paul are a compilation of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

In letters under the name of Paul [Papyr1 46], Jesus is the Lord God.

The Lord God is a fiction character in Jewish mythology.

Jesus is a fiction character.

Paul is a fiction character in Acts and all letters under the name of Paul are either forgeries or false attribution.

In Acts there is zero mention of a single letter from Paul to any Church in the Roman Empire.

No-one [Scholar or not] can overturn the argument that Jesus and Paul are fiction characters and invented in the 2nd century or later.

This is not an answer to my question.
I repeat.
Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

 

[Craig B]

Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

Thales is a fiction character invented by fiction Aristotle hundreds of years later! Fiction character Jesus turned some jugs of water into wine, but fiction character Thales of Miletus^WP turned the entire material universe into water!

While Aristotle's conjecture on why Thales held water as the originating principle of matter is his own thinking, his statement that Thales held it as water is generally accepted as genuinely originating with Thales​

Aristotle is a fiction character because

The surviving corpus of Aristotle derives from medieval manuscripts based on a 1st century BC edition. There were no commentaries on the biological works written until they were collectively translated into Arabic. The first appearance of Aristotle's biological writings in the West are Latin translations of an Arabic edition by Michael Scot​

So this is complete fiction, and we don't even have Greek originals. Nobody can produce Greek writings of fiction Thales from the sixth century BCE! And nobody can produce Greek writings of fiction Aristotle, so it is all the fictional work of Arabian fiction writers in the Middle Ages.

 

[David Mo]

Thales is a fiction character invented by fiction Aristotle hundreds of years later! Fiction character Jesus turned some jugs of water into wine, but fiction character Thales of Miletus^WP turned the entire material universe into water!

While Aristotle's conjecture on why Thales held water as the originating principle of matter is his own thinking, his statement that Thales held it as water is generally accepted as genuinely originating with Thales​

Aristotle is a fiction character because

The surviving corpus of Aristotle derives from medieval manuscripts based on a 1st century BC edition. There were no commentaries on the biological works written until they were collectively translated into Arabic. The first appearance of Aristotle's biological writings in the West are Latin translations of an Arabic edition by Michael Scot​

So this is complete fiction, and we don't even have Greek originals. Nobody can produce Greek writings of fiction Thales from the sixth century BCE! And nobody can produce Greek writings of fiction Aristotle, so it is all the fictional work of Arabian fiction writers in the Middle Ages.

I suspected this. All the ancient history of philosophy is a fraud! Are you sure that Avicena really existed? Have you any evidence of it?

 

[dejudge]

Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

Have you any historical evidence for Jesus and Paul?

It is simply absurd to assume Jesus and Paul existed because Thales of Miletus may or may not have existed.

You cannot now or ever present historical evidence for Jesus and Paul because it is already known that all stories about Jesus and Paul are from the 2nd century or later and that no contemporary writer mentioned Jesus, his parents, his relatives, his disciples, his apostles including Paul, his teachings or his death.

The stories about Jesus and Paul are a compilation of fiction, forgeries and false attribution.

In letters under the name of Paul [Papyr1 46], Jesus is the Lord God.

The Lord God is a fiction character in Jewish mythology.

Jesus is a fiction character.

Paul is a fiction character in Acts and all letters under the name of Paul are either forgeries or false attribution.

In Acts there is zero mention of a single letter from Paul to any Church in the Roman Empire.

No-one [Scholar or not] can overturn the argument that Jesus and Paul are fiction characters and invented in the 2nd century or later.

This is not an answer to my question.
I repeat.
Have you any evidence of the existence of Thales of Miletus? What evidence?
Thank you.

What bizarre contradictory nonsense!!!

You reply to my answer and still claim I did not answer your question.

How absurd can you be!!!!???

Look at the answer if you can see!!!

It is simply absurd to assume Jesus and Paul existed because Thales of Miletus may or may not have existed.

 

[Craig B]

It is simply absurd to assume Jesus and Paul existed because Thales of Miletus may or may not have existed.

That is logically absurd. I am concerned that forgers may be fabricating absurd balderdash and attaching your name to it. If I say: Thales may or may not have existed therefore the man in the moon exists, then the man in the moon must exist because it is incontrovertibly true that Thales may or may not have existed, unless he's Schrödinger's Cat^WP.

By using your reasoning I can prove that anything I wish either did or did not exist, entirely as I please.
Jesus and Paul existed, if it is true that either Thales did or did not exist.
It is true that either Thales did or did not exist.
Therefore Jesus and Paul existed.
And so on.

 

[dejudge]

That is logically absurd. I am concerned that forgers may be fabricating absurd balderdash and attaching your name to it. If I say: Thales may or may not have existed therefore the man in the moon exists, then the man in the moon must exist because it is incontrovertibly true that Thales may or may not have existed, unless he's Schrödinger's Cat^WP.

By using your reasoning I can prove that anything I wish either did or did not exist, entirely as I please.
Jesus and Paul existed, if it is true that either Thales did or did not exist.
It is true that either Thales did or did not exist.
Therefore Jesus and Paul existed.
And so on.

What complete rubbish you post!!!!