Merged Dakota Access Pipeline

[Sherkeu]

My favorite kinds of tu quoque are the hypothetical ones, because people can make up anything at all that they want to, and then use that fantasy to somehow sling imaginary mud at their targets.

I'm merely pointing our that this isn't a simple maltreated natives vs greedy oil. The other tribe is also very concerned about their land and water, but they are compensated for this. It seems to make a difference when there is a benefit.

...
I think Standing Rock has a valid concern. However, they do not have actual rights to any of this land and they are not experts assessing potential risk. There is a process for approval of which Standing Rock was invited to be part. Many hearings were held for the public to voice concerns and some changes resulted from that.
The pipeline company followed direction and acted in good faith. If there was willful deceit, collusion, or the land was in dispute, it would be a different story.

That the US government kept shrinking the Sioux's land through a succession of unfair treaties 150 years ago is not the responsibility of the pipeline company. That falls to politicians and agencies of the US government and the 4 states involved that all approved it.

There is already an active natural gas pipeline under this section of the river so it seems logical to follow the same path of existing easements.


The harsh and sometimes violent treatment of the protesters seemed senseless, but that is a separate issue.

 

[cullennz]

The company is worth billions. Just go round it

 

[Sherkeu]

Thankfully, one doesn't have to accept responsibility for what other members of one's ethnic or cultural group have done.

But I'll bite, is the MHA nation greedy? I can't say. I tend to think of greed more in terms of diminishing others in order to satisfy desires way beyond basic physical and emotional needs. Were they impoverished and desperate in a lonely pocket of America like most tribes and now have some new educational or medical facilities or were they getting along fine and everyone on the reservation has a Mercedes? So as not to be dichotomous about it, I understand there's a spectrum represented there. How 'greedy' of a decision it is depends on where in that spectrum their situation was/is.

Can't say what Standing Rock 'might have' done, though their resistance to even tacit participation in the (meaningful) consultation and consent process seems very intentional. The strictest reading of the treaties and laws, it should be noted, doesn't require successful agreement of the parties, it simply requires a process to have occurred (at that point, civil disputes and claims of obstructive acts or deliberate malfeasance can be made). This is why most of the suits are between the companies involved and some U.S. agency, suing the tribe is a much harder sell since they've worked to avoid being seen as official participants in the project at nearly every level, as any tacit interaction on those terms could be used to demonstrate they acknowledged the existence of a consultation and consent process.

Agree, all native tribes may not make the same decision. There is one that banned fracking on their scattered parcels near the area. MHA had a lot of poverty and I'm not sure their decision had made them any happier, even with the money. Lots of problems came from it. Scams, corruption, crime, toxic water spills, etc...

I guess I'm trying to find the reason the pipeline company is specifically demonized for doing exactly what pipeline companies do and doing it the prescribed way. The MHA tribe is essentially doing what the pipeline company is doing to their own neighbors. They are even building a large refinery on site. This situation could just as easily have been tribe vs tribe if they were located near each other.
*And really, it is the BLM and BIA that issued their permits and share in revenue since it is federal land in trust. They don't control their own mining rights like private land does.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I guess I'm trying to find the reason the pipeline company is specifically demonized for doing exactly what pipeline companies do and doing it the prescribed way.

<snip>

Are they? You mean why are they "being demonized" at all? Is this sorta like scorpions acting like scorpions? ("It's in their nature.")

Seems to me like they aren't the only ones catching flack for this. And I don't know that they are somehow blame free. Has every step they've taken been completely open and aboveboard?

 

[Sherkeu]

Are they? You mean why are they "being demonized" at all? Is this sorta like scorpions acting like scorpions? ("It's in their nature.")

Yes. Just as with many other infrastructure projects, people don't want any degradation to their quality of life. So wastewater treatment plants, airports, railways, wind farms, landfills, power plants, etc.... They all bring out residents who point out environmental concerns.

In my own city, residents recently protested allowing medical marijuana dispensaries after they approved by the city council. The approval was reversed, I think unfairly. "Pot is for druggies!" dontcha know.

A mile down the road in the next city (Anaheim), plans are (tentatively) underway for an Anaerobic Digestion plant to deal with Californias new organic waste laws. A flyer went out in my community with all sorts of scare tactics about how horrible it will be. Open trucks spilling garbage and a nasty stench wafting through our homes.
I actually looked at the proposal and it seemed all the materials were in closed trucks and waste transferred into a closed bay at the facility with high tech air filtration. The waste never went outside until it was finished into fertilizer patties.
Once people decided it was akin to having toxic waste next door, they didn't consider the perfectly rational answers the company gave at a local meeting. They didn't trust the environmental report. "But what if it leaks?" "What if the tank explodes?", etc... The project is now looking to other locations (so they say).
To get far enough, the waste would drive perhaps 60mi vs 3mi from the sanitation company, have more accidents, and consume more fuel, as well as being too far for any of us to get the energy benefits - or the county jobs and taxes.

So yes, pipeline companies build pipelines. That's what they do. And right now 30-million-lb trainloads of crude, stretched to operational capacity, are traveling through towns, cities, and across that same river to deliver the same oil while plans for a double walled tunnel with redundant electronic shut-off valves 92ft under the water is delayed.

 

[plague311]

Yes. Just as with many other infrastructure projects, people don't want any degradation to their quality of life. So wastewater treatment plants, airports, railways, wind farms, landfills, power plants, etc.... They all bring out residents who point out environmental concerns.

It's totally ok to **** on people as long as you've been ******** on those people for a long time.

 

[plague311]

Like the MHA nation tribe with their thousands of miles of pipes carrying oil and huge amounts of toxic wastewater from fracking under the river?

Are they greedy too? Why is no one protesting there?
Do you think Standing Rock, if they had oil too, would have said no to the $800 million to protect their water?

Or maybe they could have used some of that $800 million to find a way to get clean *********** water. Thanks for the "what if" scenario. **** fracking too, if you want my honest opinion.

 

[marplots]

But, but, but... it's crude oil. All-natural, 100% organic. No artificial ingredients, no pesticides, no rain forests or elephants killed. As pure as Mother Earth can make it.

If we weren't supposed to use this sweet crude, why did God put it there?

 

[plague311]

Just more safe pipelines!

Belle Fourche Pipeline Co. estimates that 130,200 gallons of oil spilled into a tributary of the Little Missouri River last week and another 46,200 gallons leaked into a hillside, the North Dakota Department of Health said Monday, Dec. 12.

 

[marplots]

Just more safe pipelines!

What's the "unsafe" part? Was it the two cows which died? Yeah, I agree that's tragic, but they don't know if the cows were killed by the break or not. All-in-all, it sounds pretty safe to me.

Much safer than, for instance, a trainload of oil crashing and burning in some major city somewhere. Pipelines for the win!

I worry a bit about the remediation crew. That's one frosty location to be working this time of year. I hope they have enough heat. Maybe kerosene or oil burning stoves would do in such a remote area. Isn't that how the DAPL protestors keep warm?

 

[plague311]

What's the "unsafe" part? Was it the two cows which died? Yeah, I agree that's tragic, but they don't know if the cows were killed by the break or not. All-in-all, it sounds pretty safe to me.

Much safer than, for instance, a trainload of oil crashing and burning in some major city somewhere. Pipelines for the win!

I worry a bit about the remediation crew. That's one frosty location to be working this time of year. I hope they have enough heat. Maybe kerosene or oil burning stoves would do in such a remote area. Isn't that how the DAPL protestors keep warm?

You must have missed the part where it contaminated a river tributary and at this point they're hoping it didn't get too far; however, they don't really know.

That was a tits up handwave though. It's been awhile since I've seen someone do it with such flippancy. Then to argue against an actual spill, with a made up scenario about what could happen with a train.

Good work, that's grade A skepticism.

 

[marplots]

You must have missed the part where it contaminated a river tributary and at this point they're hoping it didn't get too far; however, they don't really know.

That was a tits up handwave though. It's been awhile since I've seen someone do it with such flippancy. Then to argue against an actual spill, with a made up scenario about what could happen with a train.

Good work, that's grade A skepticism.

Sarcasm is a good antidote for scaremongering. I think it was the word "unsafe" which conjured up, I don't know - danger?

Presumably, those who aren't panicked or trying to score points would understand that spills required clean-ups and remediation, not abandoning a technology wholesale.

In fact, this episode is going to be one of many examples of the very tragedy - a spill - so often played as a trump card, just being something that gets fixed and forgotten with no lasting damage at all. I wouldn't mind if they had a few spills on purpose - so clean up crews could practice their craft.

Are we confusing oil with radioactive nuclear waste? Different stuff. I looked it up. Oil is the one made from decayed plant matter. Closer to compost than plutonium. It's the stuff we make plastics out of, like that keyboard you are typing on, the garbage bag you'll throw it out in, and the plastic trash container you'll throw them both into. It's the stuff we make water bottles out of.

So here we have an estimated 176,000 gallon spill. Care to track what happens in a few months or a year? Probably not. Because there is the risk that no permanent damage will be done and that absolutely ruins the fear.

 

[Navigator]

There are other ways to make oil which are far better for the eco system.

 

[plague311]

Sarcasm is a good antidote for scaremongering. I think it was the word "unsafe" which conjured up, I don't know - danger?

Presumably, those who aren't panicked or trying to score points would understand that spills required clean-ups and remediation, not abandoning a technology wholesale.

In fact, this episode is going to be one of many examples of the very tragedy - a spill - so often played as a trump card, just being something that gets fixed and forgotten with no lasting damage at all. I wouldn't mind if they had a few spills on purpose - so clean up crews could practice their craft.

Are we confusing oil with radioactive nuclear waste? Different stuff. I looked it up. Oil is the one made from decayed plant matter. Closer to compost than plutonium. It's the stuff we make plastics out of, like that keyboard you are typing on, the garbage bag you'll throw it out in, and the plastic trash container you'll throw them both into. It's the stuff we make water bottles out of.

So here we have an estimated 176,000 gallon spill. Care to track what happens in a few months or a year? Probably not. Because there is the risk that no permanent damage will be done and that absolutely ruins the fear.

A few of the farmers out here, including the guy that found 20,000 barrels leaked onto his land a few years ago, would have a tendency to disagree with you. I love your flower pedaled explanation though. "Oh, it wasn't a spill. We were just returning this lovely displaced Earth back to it's home."

Do people actually buy that?

 

[marplots]

A few of the farmers out here, including the guy that found 20,000 barrels leaked onto his land a few years ago, would have a tendency to disagree with you. I love your flower pedaled explanation though. "Oh, it wasn't a spill. We were just returning this lovely displaced Earth back to it's home."

Do people actually buy that?

Sure, by the barrel. The refined stuff is more popular though and sold by the gallon. Where I'm at it's selling for under $2 a gallon, which is quite low.

I'm curious though. It sounds like you know the farmer who had the 20,000 barrels leaked onto his land a few years ago. How did that turn out? Environmental nightmare/apocalypse or just major inconvenience?

We can look it up on the EPA site if you like. Perhaps we can learn together.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Sarcasm is a good antidote for scaremongering. I think it was the word "unsafe" which conjured up, I don't know - danger?

Presumably, those who aren't panicked or trying to score points would understand that spills required clean-ups and remediation, not abandoning a technology wholesale.

In fact, this episode is going to be one of many examples of the very tragedy - a spill - so often played as a trump card, just being something that gets fixed and forgotten with no lasting damage at all. I wouldn't mind if they had a few spills on purpose - so clean up crews could practice their craft.

Are we confusing oil with radioactive nuclear waste? Different stuff. I looked it up. Oil is the one made from decayed plant matter. Closer to compost than plutonium. It's the stuff we make plastics out of, like that keyboard you are typing on, the garbage bag you'll throw it out in, and the plastic trash container you'll throw them both into. It's the stuff we make water bottles out of.

So here we have an estimated 176,000 gallon spill. Care to track what happens in a few months or a year? Probably not. Because there is the risk that no permanent damage will be done and that absolutely ruins the fear.

Your assertion, your burden.

For bonus points, avoid evidence sourced to the very entities interested in limiting their own exposed liability.

The fossil fuel industry I'm aware of likes to go with 'out of sight, out of mind' as their 'cleanup' strategy. They don't want news cameras showing black sludge despoiling natural beauty or rainbow colored oil slicks fouling our drinking water or marine habitats. Other than that, they seem like they could care less what happens.

 

[marplots]

Your assertion, your burden.

For bonus points, avoid evidence sourced to the very entities interested in limiting their own exposed liability.

Challenge accepted. We'll revisit this in a year or two to find out.

 

[quadraginta]

Your assertion, your burden.

For bonus points, avoid evidence sourced to the very entities interested in limiting their own exposed liability.

The fossil fuel industry I'm aware of likes to go with 'out of sight, out of mind' as their 'cleanup' strategy. They don't want news cameras showing black sludge despoiling natural beauty or rainbow colored oil slicks fouling our drinking water or marine habitats. Other than that, they seem like they could care less what happens.

Cuyahoga. Chicago. Rouge. Buffalo.

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on
Now the Lord can make you tumble
And the Lord can make you turn
And the Lord can make you overflow
But the Lord can't make you burn

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on

 

[Navigator]

Cuyahoga. Chicago. Rouge. Buffalo.

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on
Now the Lord can make you tumble
And the Lord can make you turn
And the Lord can make you overflow
But the Lord can't make you burn

Burn on, big river, burn on
Burn on, big river, burn on

 

[plague311]

We can look it up on the EPA site if you like. Perhaps we can learn together.

Sure, let me know what you come up with. I'll wait patiently.

ETA:

So far the oil has been contained to a small sliver of Mr. Jensen’s property, which he cannot now farm. But he is still concerned about lingering effects the spill may have on his land.