Proof of Immortality, the IV league

[Hokulele]

How? I've asked you several times to explain this odd notion because it seems to be beyond my comprehension.

Jabba seems to believe the "self" is something separate that controls the body. Not an integral part of the body itself. You can think of it like bodies being thin clients, while the "self" is the server. It you were to clone additional workstations, you would still have the same server driving them.

This is why his version of H is invalid, because people do not work like that at all. It would be kind of cool, though. I could oust your "self" from your body, and take over. I always wondered what it would be like to be taller.

 

[HighRiser]

If there is no pool of potential bananas, each new banana is a brand new creation, and potential bananas must be infinite.

I support every word you are saying, but mark me - MARK ME!

I bought up the banana thing about 1000 posts ago.
He never answered me either.

You're both bananas.

And so am I.

Participation in this thread, which is also bananas, is proof.

Of the pudding.

Which is banana with bits of bananas sliced up in it.

With vanilla wafers.

On the side so they don't get soggy, please.

And now I'm off to the grocery to see if there's a sugar-free banana pudding available.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Here is how you become soulless..

 

[HighRiser]

Jabba seems to believe the "self" is something separate that controls the body. Not an integral part of the body itself.

I think you're right about that. But I don't think I grasp the concept.

You can think of it like bodies being thin clients, while the "self" is the server. It you were to clone additional workstations, you would still have the same server driving them.

Maybe, if I knew what thin clients were. I'll go googling after I get back from the grocery.

This is why his version of H is invalid, because people do not work like that at all. It would be kind of cool, though. I could oust your "self" from your body, and take over.

It might be cool, in an unable-to-function-properly sort of way. I can't imagine the troubles one might have with, say, equilibrium. What happens when one aspect is looking to the side while the other aspect is jogging down the sidewalk? Smacks into a parking meter, if they had my luck.

I always wondered what it would be like to be taller.

Stand on a box of bananas.

But not a box of vanilla wafers!

They're fragile.

 

[Jabba]

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

 

[jsfisher]

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

Susan Blackmore is not here. We cannot engage her in a discussion. You, Jabba, however, are here. How about you tell us what you think?

I would be saddened to learn that you really have no ideas of your own and are simply shopping for someone else's thoughts in the hopes they'll support a baseless idea you'd prefer to be true.

 

[jond]

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

Perhaps you should post her reply to you, which you did not understand.

 

[godless dave]

I have a sense of self. I don't feel like it's separate for my body, or even that it controls my body. It feels like part of my body. When I move my fingers to type thus, I don't feel like I'm controlling a marionette. I feel like the part of my mind that decides to do things is moving one of the fingers attached to it. That part of my mind feels like it relies on other parts of my mind to handle the details of which muscles to contract and relax to move those fingers. But all those parts feel like me.

 

[Jabba]

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question, but at least some of you probably accept that you do have such a sense, and do believe that when your body dies, you will never have that sense again -- your particular sense of self will never exist again.
- My claim is that sense of self, whatever it is otherwise, is probably immortal. I say that, because your sense of self is so unlikely to currently exist if it isn't immortal -- though, this might have more to do with the relativity of time than the length of your actual existence.

 

[Mojo]

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

Nobody is denying that consciousness exists, Jabba. This latest bit of manoeuvring isn't getting you any nearer your goal.

 

[jond]

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question, but at least some of you probably accept that you do have such a sense, and do believe that when your body dies, you will never have that sense again -- your particular sense of self will never exist again.
- My claim is that sense of self, whatever it is otherwise, is probably immortal. I say that, because your sense of self is so unlikely to currently exist if it isn't immortal -- though, this might have more to do with the relativity of time than the length of your actual existence.

How would an illusion continue when the parts that give rise to it stop?

 

[Mojo]

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question...

Speaking of questions that people seem reluctant to answer:

Jabba,
- Is the likelihood of your body existing infinitesimal?

 

[Mojo]

Oh, and also, Jabba, how do you know that you are "you" and not one of the infinite number of other "potential selves" that you claim could be occupying your body?

 

[Jabba]

I have a sense of self. I don't feel like it's separate for my body, or even that it controls my body. It feels like part of my body. When I move my fingers to type thus, I don't feel like I'm controlling a marionette. I feel like the part of my mind that decides to do things is moving one of the fingers attached to it. That part of my mind feels like it relies on other parts of my mind to handle the details of which muscles to contract and relax to move those fingers. But all those parts feel like me.

Dave,
- Anyway, from our previous discussions, you must accept that this particular sense of self never existed before, will never exist again and never had to exist in the first place.
- I claim that you must be wrong because the likelihood of your sense of self currently existing is virtually zero if you are right.
- Just in case you haven't quite understood what I've been claiming.

 

[aleCcowaN]

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question WHY BOTHER?, but at least some of you probably accept that you do have such a sense, and do believe that when your body dies, you will never have that sense again -- your particular sense of self will never exist again.
NON SEQUITUR - My claim is that sense of self, whatever it is otherwise, is probably immortal(1).NON SEQUITUR I say that, because your sense of self is so unlikely to currently exist if it isn't immortal (2)--NON SEQUITUR though, this might have more to do with the relativity of time (3) than the length of your actual existence.(4)

(1) It's not a claim. It's not even a hypothesis because you do nothing to analyse it and falsate it (you believe you do, but that's false)
(2) No, you're desperately grasping at any straw that your relentless epistemological hedonism imagines to exist just because you fancy to have a soul and you egotistically need it to be immortal. You're transparent doing that.
(3 )no, it has to do more with the price of silk in China
(4) than whether you aunt uses cup 3D or not

What a pile of stinking pipe dreams groomed as thoughts that you have there!

 

[Mojo]

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

By the way, Jabba, while I know that I am conscious, I have no actual proof that you are conscious. The principle of uniformity means that I generally regard other people as conscious, but for some reason I am now imagining your posts being read in the voice of HAL 9000.

 

[jond]

Dave,
- Anyway, from our previous discussions, you must accept that this particular sense of self never existed before, will never exist again and never had to exist in the first place.
- I claim that you must be wrong because the likelihood of your sense of self currently existing is virtually zero if you are right.
- Just in case you haven't quite understood what I've been claiming.

Why do you continue to ignore the obvious fact that the scientific model ("if you are right") is considerably more likely than your model?

 

[Mojo]

Dave,
- Anyway, from our previous discussions, you must accept that this particular sense of self never existed before, will never exist again and never had to exist in the first place.
- I claim that you must be wrong because the likelihood of your sense of self currently existing is virtually zero if you are right.
- Just in case you haven't quite understood what I've been claiming.

Jabba, Dave's existence may be very unlikely, but it is more likely if his consciousness is produced by his body than it is if his consciousness is an entity that exists independently of his body.
Just in case you haven't quite understood what everyone has been telling you.

 

[The Sparrow]

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question, but at least some of you probably accept that you do have such a sense, and do believe that when your body dies, you will never have that sense again -- your particular sense of self will never exist again. ....

Ever get the feeling you are just talking to yourself?
Like.........on this forum.......when you either ignore what you don't want to hear, or change people's responses into what you DO want to hear?

 

[The Norseman]

Mojo,

- I wasn't very clear...

- It's how the particular self comes about -- not selves in general -- to which I was referring.

- Also, it's that ineffable kind of self, rather than the self identified by his/her characteristics -- the self (perhaps, illusional) described by Susan Blackmore.
Who – or what – am I? Answers such as ‘I am my body’ or ‘I am my brain’ are unsatisfactory because I don’t feel like a body or a brain. I feel like someone who owns this body and brain. But who could it be who feels as though she lives inside this head and looks out through the eyes? Who is it who seems to be living this life and having these experiences?
Blackmore, Susan. Consciousness: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (Kindle Locations 1064-1067). OUP Oxford. Kindle Edition.

- More about that later.

- But, most importantly, this particular self is brand new -- the offspring/result of a particular bit of consciousness, and no more limited than the number of consciousnesses possible. We're like recycled yellow Volkswagons, each of us having our own (new) VIN #.

Dave,

- I'm uncomfortable quoting very much...
- As I suspect you know, our rules suggest using single paragraphs -- and, that spreading quotes out doesn't excuse the overall usage.
- Here are two short quotes.


In other words, an illusion is not something that does not exist but something that is not the way it seems.
Blackmore, Susan. Consciousness: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (Kindle Locations 864-865). OUP Oxford. Kindle Edition.

How can a physical brain, made purely of material substances and nothing else, give rise to conscious experiences or ineffable qualia?
Blackmore, Susan. Consciousness: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (Kindle Locations 280-281). OUP Oxford. Kindle Edition.

No, you were very obviously trying to restrict your quotations so that it looked as if Blackmore supports your position.

Yup. I've got the book and I just looked up the two quotes given. He's definitely quoting out of context.

Mojo,
- I must admit that my reflexes do push in that direction -- but, my goal is to avoid those reflexes and instead to be as "transparent" as possible... I know that you won't believe such a thing -- but, I swear to God (or, a reasonable facsimile thereof) that it's true.
- I also admit that Blackmore is an atheist, and believes that the "self" is an illusion.
- What I'm trying to argue here is that even if the self IS an illusion, according to OOFLam, my illusion will cease to exist, will never exist again, never had to exist in the first place and whose likelihood of currently existing is infinitesimal.
- I'm also claiming that my illusion has feelings,and its existence matters to it.
- Also, I was using Blackmore to isolate the particular kind of self to which I've been trying to refer.

What page(s) of that book do you think best represents what Susan Blackmore is saying? If you're going to rely on this one particular author and book and you're too afraid to quote more (I don't see why; it's about 150-ish pages. I know that a few paragraphs or so is perfectly kosher here on ISF. I've done it before.) But page numbers are fine too.

- Susan Blackmore says that she has a 'sense' (my word) of self, that she believes is an illusion. Do any of you guys have such a sense of self?

So what if she believes that the sense of self is an illusion? How does that make anything of what you've made up any more likely?

- It could be that no one wants to answer my last question, but at least some of you probably accept that you do have such a sense, and do believe that when your body dies, you will never have that sense again -- your particular sense of self will never exist again.
- My claim is that sense of self, whatever it is otherwise, is probably immortal. I say that, because your sense of self is so unlikely to currently exist if it isn't immortal -- though, this might have more to do with the relativity of time than the length of your actual existence.

I wonder if you can explain (or anyone paraphrase) why the only conclusion to "something is extremely unlikely to happen but does actually happen" is "it must be because it's immortal"?

(4) than whether you aunt uses cup 3D or not

Are you talking about breast size here? Finally! Something interesting and useful to discuss! Like what would a size 3D be in American measurements?