Minority Groups "Special Rights"

No one's selecting the voters, Archie. If there's a problem, it's one of convincing people to get off of their asses and vote.

No, it's not. And that assumption is what I am talking about. It may be that they just don't care and are too lazy to vote. The problem may be that minorities don't have transport to get to the voting booths. It may be that they can't get childcare. It may be that they work longer hours and for whatever reason can't vote in the designated time slot. it may be they don't know how to vote, or how to register or whatever else they need to do in the process. It may be that they feel completely disengaged from the entire process and don't see a point in voting. It may be that someone was standing at the polling booth threatening to beat up any minorities that came to vote.

By your argument only the last of those is discrimination and worthy of action. But all those other reasons (except the first) represent problems that could be addressed and could increase voter numbers with some creative thinking and innovation. But nobody will bother to look at those or find solutions while we only care about the last one and use the first one to explain the problem away.
 
The problem may be that minorities don't have transport to get to the voting booths. It may be that they can't get childcare. It may be that they work longer hours and for whatever reason can't vote in the designated time slot. it may be they don't know how to vote, or how to register or whatever else they need to do in the process.

All true, and all thing I didn't think about because the US is just messed up when it comes to these things. So point to you for that. Still, voting wasn't what we were discussing.

It may be that they feel completely disengaged from the entire process and don't see a point in voting.

That, however, has nothing to do with discrimination.

It may be that someone was standing at the polling booth threatening to beat up any minorities that came to vote.

That's assault.

By your argument only the last of those is discrimination and worthy of action.

No.
 
A couple comments.

First, the voting thing brings to mind a couple of thoughts.

We are essentially putting people into statistical bins and comparing participation between bins. The problem with this is that it's not that simple. You can't put people in single factor bins (like race) and then make comparisons. There are other factors as well: income level, education level, urban/rural, neighborhood, etc. It is necessary to to a more in-depth analysis to determine which factor is the real correlation and which are incidental correlations due to the difference in the population make-up within the bins of that factor.

As illustration (assuming this isn't more than I'm allowed to quote):
http://www.fairvote.org/what_affects_voter_turnout_rates
Demographics: In the aggregate, voters tend to be older, wealthier, more educated and whiter than non-voters.

Age: Young people are much less likely to vote than older ones. From 1972 to 2012, citizens 18-29 years old turned out at a rate 15 to 20 points lower than citizens 30 year and older.

Race/ethnicity: Voter turnout also varies by race and ethnicity. In 2012, turnout rates among eligible white and black voters was 64.1% and 66.2%, respectively, while it was only 48.0% and 47.3% among Latino and Asian American voters respectively. The 2012 election was the first presidential election since Reconstruction ended in which black turnout exceeded white turnout.

Gender: Women's voter turnout has surpassed men's in every presidential election since 1980. In the 2012 election, 7.8 more women than men voted. Interestingly though, older women are actually less like to vote than older men. In 2008, 72.2% of men 75 years and older voted, compared to only 64.9% of women that age.

Socio-economic status: Wealthy Americans vote at much higher rates than those of lower socio-economic status. During the 2008 presidential election, only 41% of eligible voters making less than $15,000 a year voted, compared to 78% of those making $150,000 a year or more. Studies have shown that this difference in turnout affects public policy: politicians are more likely to respond to the desires of their wealthy constituents than of their poorer constituents, in part because more of their wealthy constituents vote.

This can extend to qualifications. Should expected representation be based on representation of the minority in the overall population or in the population of qualified persons? My daughter is studying personal fitness training. Most of her class is men. So due to qualifications, you cannot reasonably expect 50% of applicants for a PFT job to be female.

Even if the number of certified PFTs were equal, there are other issues, based on observations she has made in class. My daughter is athletic. She was a softball pitcher and cheerleader in high school and played volleyball in middle school. But she is at a significant disadvantage over her male classmates, because she doesn't have the same strength that the men do. The consequence of this, from a professional standpoint, is that it is difficult for her to spot for men lifting heavier weights. Consequently, when she gets out in the workforce, she will be limited as to which clients she can work with. So from a hiring perspective, a gym owner has some considerations to make. A male trainer is going to be more versatile because they can safely work with a larger portion of the clientele. (Also, many clients will be more confident in their safety being spotted by a male.) Of course, there is a benefit to having female trainers on staff as well, because some women may be more comfortable with a female trainer. But does it make sense to staff at a 50/50 male female split? Probably not. And note, that the hiring here is really not based on gender, but on the physical abilities that happen to favor one gender over another.

Now, construction/carpentry jobs have been mentioned previously in this thread. Are women less interested in this work for cultural reasons or is it because of physical differences. Are male bodies in general more suited to repeated tasks requiring upper body strength over the course of the day? Might women not gravitate to those fields because the work is more stressful on them than it is men? I'm not sure, but it is a reasonable possibility that should be investigated before pointing out under-representation. It just might be a harder job for women than men making it less attractive.

I could go further with some speculation on how construction being unattractive could divert someone from related fields like engineering, crane operator, etc. But that's just speculation.
 


Just to be clear then which of those is discrimination worthy of action?

There's a hell of a lot of subtle discrimination in society where its just assumed that people will fit into the way things work or have always worked and the more things done to eliminate those the better. We might never get to a perfect balance everywhere in all areas but if we make the goal we will get a hell of a lot closer to it than if we look for reasons why we can't or shouldn't.
 
Just to be clear then which of those is discrimination worthy of action?

There's a hell of a lot of subtle discrimination in society where its just assumed that people will fit into the way things work or have always worked and the more things done to eliminate those the better. We might never get to a perfect balance everywhere in all areas but if we make the goal we will get a hell of a lot closer to it than if we look for reasons why we can't or shouldn't.

Should the goal be an artificial numerical balance or a solution that best satisfies the problem as perceived by the society affected?
 
... Are black families just less likely to want to own homes?
Really? Am I reading those words correctly? I'd be fascinated to hear the reasoning, given that home ownership is still the primary asset of US families and key to generating inter-generational wealth.
I think that it's entirely possible to make a good case based on statistics, but not naively.
This is quite a step up.
I don't want to play devil's advocate here but under that scenario would it be possible that they allow more black people to buy houses who normally couldn't afford it just to meet the government requirements?
It's been done.
 
Just to be clear then which of those is discrimination worthy of action?

Well, aside from the idiot who beats people up, which is an obvious situation where violence, not discrimination, must be dealt with, if the state deliberately makes it harder for minorities to vote, that is indeed discrimination and should be addressed.

But again, this isn't what we were discussing.
 
I pulled out what you said about personal fitness trainers to address one of the nuances.

Even if the number of certified PFTs were equal, there are other issues, based on observations she has made in class. My daughter is athletic. She was a softball pitcher and cheerleader in high school and played volleyball in middle school. But she is at a significant disadvantage over her male classmates, because she doesn't have the same strength that the men do. The consequence of this, from a professional standpoint, is that it is difficult for her to spot for men lifting heavier weights. Consequently, when she gets out in the workforce, she will be limited as to which clients she can work with. So from a hiring perspective, a gym owner has some considerations to make. A male trainer is going to be more versatile because they can safely work with a larger portion of the clientele. (Also, many clients will be more confident in their safety being spotted by a male.) Of course, there is a benefit to having female trainers on staff as well, because some women may be more comfortable with a female trainer. But does it make sense to staff at a 50/50 male female split? Probably not. And note, that the hiring here is really not based on gender, but on the physical abilities that happen to favor one gender over another.

This is interesting because it proposes some objective standard defining the job which happens to favor men. What I think it overlooks is the ability for employers to modify jobs to accommodate different types of employees.

We went through some of this with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). It turns out that some job skills are normed without much regard for doing things differently. So, for example, in the case of spotting weights, there will always be some weight "ceiling" which even the men will have a hard time with. What solution is available in such cases? I am not a PFT, but it seems like mechanical assistance of some sort could be set up, and this same solution is then available to weaker PFTs as a matter of course.

In other words, we shape the job to fit the workers available to us. And it isn't that difficult. It seems onerous only when tradition tells us "that's how we always did it."

In general, the arguments based on gender limitations or accommodation break down when challenged (not always). I can complain that having women work at my construction site means I have to pay for an extra porta-potty, but ignore the idea that if the site were woman-only to start with, I'd have the same problem.

Still, there may be exceptions. The ADA calls for "reasonable accommodation" and I think that's a good standard. As you point out, there may be client-side demand for a woman PFT over a man, just as there is in the opposite direction. Further, so long as all the companies have to follow the same rules on hiring, there is no competitive advantage available, based on gender or another protected category.
 
I pulled out what you said about personal fitness trainers to address one of the nuances.



This is interesting because it proposes some objective standard defining the job which happens to favor men. What I think it overlooks is the ability for employers to modify jobs to accommodate different types of employees.

We went through some of this with the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). It turns out that some job skills are normed without much regard for doing things differently. So, for example, in the case of spotting weights, there will always be some weight "ceiling" which even the men will have a hard time with. What solution is available in such cases? I am not a PFT, but it seems like mechanical assistance of some sort could be set up, and this same solution is then available to weaker PFTs as a matter of course.

In other words, we shape the job to fit the workers available to us. And it isn't that difficult. It seems onerous only when tradition tells us "that's how we always did it."

In general, the arguments based on gender limitations or accommodation break down when challenged (not always). I can complain that having women work at my construction site means I have to pay for an extra porta-potty, but ignore the idea that if the site were woman-only to start with, I'd have the same problem.

Still, there may be exceptions. The ADA calls for "reasonable accommodation" and I think that's a good standard. As you point out, there may be client-side demand for a woman PFT over a man, just as there is in the opposite direction. Further, so long as all the companies have to follow the same rules on hiring, there is no competitive advantage available, based on gender or another protected category.

And I was baffled by the example. As a retired Personal Fitness Trainer and Personal Strength Trainer &c, I don't think I've ever spotted a client. Sounds risky. The trainer's job is to educate, not jump in and do the exercises. The trainer's primary value is in her knowledge and experience - the goal is to get the client performing safely, independently, and according to a plan.

My facilities were 60% female personal fitness trainers. I think this is primarily because they were all graduates, mostly physiology or human kinetics degrees, which are disproportionately women. You need to be smart for that job, not strong. (although most of the trainers agree they want to look fit, as it affects client confidence)
 
And I was baffled by the example. As a retired Personal Fitness Trainer and Personal Strength Trainer &c, I don't think I've ever spotted a client. Sounds risky. The trainer's job is to educate, not jump in and do the exercises. The trainer's primary value is in her knowledge and experience - the goal is to get the client performing safely, independently, and according to a plan.

My facilities were 60% female personal fitness trainers. I think this is primarily because they were all graduates, mostly physiology or human kinetics degrees, which are disproportionately women. You need to be smart for that job, not strong. (although most of the trainers agree they want to look fit, as it affects client confidence)

Her certification curriculum seems to disagree. I'm looking here at the NSCA Exercise Technique Manual for Resistance Training. It breaks down the correct techniques for the major exercises. This includes the proper position of the spotter. Her other textbook: NCSA's Essentials of Personal Training says the following on page 290:
When a client is performing a resistance training exercise, the personal trainer's primary responsibility is the client's safety. In addition to teaching and reinforcing proper exercise technique, the personal trainer may also serve as a spotter by physically assisting clients in completing the exercise to help protect them from injury.
Plus this issue was mentioned in an article she summarized for the class regarding properly matching clients to staff.

A couple weeks ago, they were paired up for partner workouts. Each day, one would be the client and the other the trainer, and they would critique each other and themselves as trainers. In her self-critique, she noted that her partner lifted much heavier weights than she was capable of, and this made it difficult for her to adequately spot for him.

Bear in mind, that this is the facility the college athletic teams use for training, so it's pretty well equipped. (Junior college, but with current/recent national championships. Sports are actually a fairly big deal there.)

Her class is about 2/3 male. And yes, you need to be smart. I've been looking at her material, and damn if that isn't as hard or harder than any class I took to get my biology degree.
 
Really? Am I reading those words correctly? I'd be fascinated to hear the reasoning, given that home ownership is still the primary asset of US families and key to generating inter-generational wealth.
It's certainly not always a good investment. It may be a better investment to put money into education, for instance, than home ownership, if one has to choose between the two.

I think that it's entirely possible to make a good case based on statistics, but not naively.
This is quite a step up.
How so? I am saying that it's possible to make a good case that discrimination is happening based on statistics. I just don't think that underrepresentation alone is enough to do so. I gave a simple example of how I think it could be done in a later post.
 
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By your argument only the last of those is discrimination and worthy of action. But all those other reasons (except the first) represent problems that could be addressed and could increase voter numbers with some creative thinking and innovation. But nobody will bother to look at those or find solutions while we only care about the last one and use the first one to explain the problem away.

Actually, "Souls to the Polls" is a pretty good, community-based solution to the first problem - which is exactly why GOP voter suppression efforts often eliminate Sunday early voting. And many people are quite happy to bring their children along with them when they vote (my grandfather always did this when I was growing up). But yes, at least as far as the US goes, it's often very much a matter of people being unable to vote on "voting day", and how they manage to get their votes in.
 
It's certainly not always a good investment. It may be a better investment to put money into education, for instance, than home ownership, if one has to choose between the two.

I don't agree that is a fair reading of the comment as posted, but if that was the thought behind it, fair enough.
 
Should the goal be an artificial numerical balance or a solution that best satisfies the problem as perceived by the society affected?

The solution is to strive for an 'artificial' numerical balance. I'm not so much interested in perceptions of society. Society perceived slavery to be fine and segregation to be A-OK for a hell of a long time.
 
Well, aside from the idiot who beats people up, which is an obvious situation where violence, not discrimination, must be dealt with, if the state deliberately makes it harder for minorities to vote, that is indeed discrimination and should be addressed.

But again, this isn't what we were discussing.

I don't think any of the examples I gave were issues of the state making it deliberately harder to vote. They were examples of things which were possibly unthinkingly making it harder to vote for certain groups.

And this goes exactly to the principle we are discussing. My view is that it is not enough to just eliminate deliberate discrimination and then say everything else is someone else's problem.

Let's take an employment related example then if it helps along the same lines. If your company is located in a remote location without public transport links then non car-owners will be disadvantaged in working for your company. It may well be that they therefore don't apply to work in your business.

So if you hire absolutely fairly then you will end up with an under-representation of certain groups. Your argument (and please correct if I'm wrong rather than just say it's wrong) is that this is fine because the employer isn't discriminating. We shouldn't assume there is a problem.

My argument is that if the employer was forced to have a greater representation of the disadvantaged group they would make the effort to understand this (or whatever other) factor and solve it. They might lay on a shuttle bus service for employees to get to work. And suddenly instead of having 5% minority applicants they have 10% or 15%.
 
I don't think any of the examples I gave were issues of the state making it deliberately harder to vote. They were examples of things which were possibly unthinkingly making it harder to vote for certain groups.

Then they are not discrimination, although they are a problem to address.

Let's take an employment related example then if it helps along the same lines. If your company is located in a remote location without public transport links then non car-owners will be disadvantaged in working for your company. It may well be that they therefore don't apply to work in your business.

So if you hire absolutely fairly then you will end up with an under-representation of certain groups. Your argument (and please correct if I'm wrong rather than just say it's wrong) is that this is fine because the employer isn't discriminating. We shouldn't assume there is a problem.

My argument is that if the employer was forced to have a greater representation of the disadvantaged group they would make the effort to understand this (or whatever other) factor and solve it. They might lay on a shuttle bus service for employees to get to work. And suddenly instead of having 5% minority applicants they have 10% or 15%.

Still, I find it odd to throw this burden on the shoulders of employers, as if access was theirs to solve. Shouldn't public transportation be used to solve this?
 
I don't think any of the examples I gave were issues of the state making it deliberately harder to vote. They were examples of things which were possibly unthinkingly making it harder to vote for certain groups.

And this goes exactly to the principle we are discussing. My view is that it is not enough to just eliminate deliberate discrimination and then say everything else is someone else's problem.

Let's take an employment related example then if it helps along the same lines. If your company is located in a remote location without public transport links then non car-owners will be disadvantaged in working for your company. It may well be that they therefore don't apply to work in your business.

So if you hire absolutely fairly then you will end up with an under-representation of certain groups. Your argument (and please correct if I'm wrong rather than just say it's wrong) is that this is fine because the employer isn't discriminating. We shouldn't assume there is a problem.

My argument is that if the employer was forced to have a greater representation of the disadvantaged group they would make the effort to understand this (or whatever other) factor and solve it. They might lay on a shuttle bus service for employees to get to work. And suddenly instead of having 5% minority applicants they have 10% or 15%.

Congratulation: You just increased cost of doing business for no good reason. (Should be done at county or state level, not individual employers!). After such "great" moves, they'll just start looking to move somewhere else where such burden doesn't exist if they can. (Or move most of workforce to visa holders if possible) And those who can't won't be as competitive as those who are not under such burden...
 
Still, I find it odd to throw this burden on the shoulders of employers, as if access was theirs to solve. Shouldn't public transportation be used to solve this?

Maybe. But we could look at it like any other supply-logistics problem a company may have. We wouldn't normally suggest that public efforts should be expended to deliver other things the company needs to function, although we do it for stuff like electricity and water.

So, yeah, it's a middle-ground case.
 
Still, I find it odd to throw this burden on the shoulders of employers, as if access was theirs to solve. Shouldn't public transportation be used to solve this?

The 'burden' of being an equal opportunity employer falls on business just as being a safe employer falls on business. I don't particularly care who solves the problem and maybe a joint approach can be found but we agree its a problem to be solved?

Congratulation: You just increased cost of doing business for no good reason. (Should be done at county or state level, not individual employers!). After such "great" moves, they'll just start looking to move somewhere else where such burden doesn't exist if they can. (Or move most of workforce to visa holders if possible) And those who can't won't be as competitive as those who are not under such burden...

Yes, we put all sorts of increased costs of doing business on companies in the name of achieving social progress. That's why you can't employ kids to clean chimneys, or put people in dangerous jobs without proper safety equipment. That's why we have minimum wage legislation. The list goes on.

'We can't afford to be fair to people' is always going to be a losing argument with me.

Most great companies already realise that penny pinching on things like this is counter productive.
 

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