Tony Szamboti vs. tfk Debate

[Mark F]

Hell, I'm just waiting for someone to tie in all 4 crashes in such a manner that it makes sense more than what actually happened. They can't even get over that 1st hurdle.

For the thinking impaired it is just so much easier to treat each as a separate, unrelated event.

 

[Gamolon]

but you guys can no-longer successfully maintain and project your illusions.

And what of Mark Basile's "illusion"? You still maintain that there will be a study submitted showing that thermite was present.

How many years has it been since it was first started?

 

[LSSBB]

Hypocrisy in action. Tell me how well are lets roll, pft, and similar sites doing? Oystein has pointed out just how well AE911T recruitment (isn't) doing.

Speaking of flatulence and denial, tell me why it is that despite roundly denying the veracity of the NIST fire spread/intensity studies, the sole attempt to dispute them comes not from a fire engineer, not from an engineer of any stripe, but from a carpenter. Tell me why, despite denying the veracity of NIST FEAs, and all non-NIST engineering studies for that matter, AE911T has yet to produce a report of the scope and quality with which to actually bolster that dispute.

All this flying in the face of the touting of the support of some 2000+ engineers and architects who, one would suppose, not only morally support the cause, but would also be willing to offer their services to the cause.

I have asked this so many times in the past I have lost count. Nary a reply let alone explanation.

Now don't tell me that MSPaintFire ain't a damn fine piece of forensic evidence to hang your hat on. Thousands of engineers and scientists* agree.




*Engineers and scientists who probably never bothered to look at it

 

[jaydeehess]

And what of Mark Basile's "illusion"? You still maintain that there will be a study submitted showing that thermite was present.

How many years has it been since it was first started?

but,,but,,but,,AE911T makes so much about the length of time it took NIST to publish their final report on WTC7 (ignoring, of course, the stated reasons for doing it last),,, so Basile, I am sure, has a very very good reason for taking at least as long to do his minor testing and report.

Probably a good reason for keeping that reason see-krit too, right Ziggi?

 

[jaydeehess]

Now don't tell me that MSPaintFire ain't a damn fine piece of forensic evidence to hang your hat on. Thousands of engineers and scientists* agree.




*Engineers and scientists who probably never bothered to look at it

Yep. Being a video broadcast tech I will soon be producing a collapse simulation using Microsoft Visio. preliminary results look promising. there's nothing to be concerned about wrt qualifications to do a collapse simulation, or whether using Visio to illustrate my own personal off-the-top-of-my-head impressions, right?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Oystein, while your arguments show you are highly skeptical that anything untoward happened at the WTC pointing to insider involvement, I do have to say you do try to be objective when evaluating an argument and you are on record giving credit where it was due.

The Nordenson error discussion on Metabunk.org showed that and I did not consider my time discussing it with you wasteful. Your objective skepticism there led to a refined argument and conclusion.

Funny though you model the girder as springs but with only one hinge, formation of the seconded levered hinge do to girder bending would indeed fail the connection on the lower girder.

Also Stiffness of the upper girder is basicly an unknowable quantity, and exact formation of springs and secondary hinges is also an unknowable quantity!

You haven't shown Nordenson wrong, you have shown a lack of understanding of the
Dynamics involved, the math adds up but the problem is wrong!

 

[Ziggi]

TFK's original statement of intention for the debate that he ended up running away from, post 1 of this thread:

I would really, Really, REALLY like this debate to be illustrative of a competent engineer (that'd be me) addressing the technical issues of the Truth Movement. I'd like it to be educational for those that are new to the debate.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
My question for our resident truthers is this: What has now changed?

Let's presume, for the sake of argument, that Tony has won the debate due to TFK defaulting. What is the significance of this victory?

...Dave

Originally Posted by Ziggi View Post
There is no change in the trend that is the downward spiral of you and your subforum of so-called "debunkers" being flushed down the toilet. The last remnants of you still try to deny this in public but you guys can no-longer successfully maintain and project your illusions. A few of you still try to deny this but the only thing objective readers will see and hear is a lot of flatulence and denial.

No change in the favour of truthers as a result of the debate, then, even in your somewhat different perception of reality.

Dave

That is the point; there is no need to change the trend of our loudest and proudest opponents making a big stink as they are being flushed down the toilet. Do you need more detailed explanations about the...#educational...significance of this event?

 

[LSSBB]

TFK's original statement of intention for the debate that he ended up running away from, post 1 of this thread:

That is the point; there is no need to change the trend of our loudest and proudest opponents making a big stink as they are being flushed down the toilet. Do you need more detailed explanations about the...#educational...significance of this event?

Yes, you need to provide real evidence that it makes significant difference to your cause.

When's your 60 Minutes interview? Tony getting a Pulitzer? Trump appointing him chairman of NIST?

 

[WilliamSeger]

That is the point; there is no need to change the trend of our loudest and proudest opponents making a big stink as they are being flushed down the toilet. Do you need more detailed explanations about the...#educational...significance of this event?

It didn't even make the fake news sites, as far as I can tell.

 

[Dave Rogers]

That is the point; there is no need to change the trend of our loudest and proudest opponents making a big stink as they are being flushed down the toilet. Do you need more detailed explanations about the...#educational...significance of this event?

Yes, I think I do. Who, specifically, has been educated? Have you been contacted by people whose views have changed as a result of the debate and are now interested in joining your movement? Have you any evidence of changes in public opinion as a result of the debate? Have you any evidence of anyone's attitudes to the events of 9/11 changing in any significant way? Because if all this gives you is an excuse to abuse people who disagree with you, then it's quite certain that nothing has changed; you've always been able to make those up yourself as and when you've required them.

Dave

 

[Ziggi]

Yes, I think I do. Who, specifically, has been educated?

...Dave

You really need this spoon-fed to you? The word "educational" was uniquely red just like the quote from TFK it referred to. Can you work out the rest on your own?

 

[jaydeehess]

You really need this spoon-fed to you? The word "educational" was uniquely red just like the quote from TFK it referred to. Can you work out the rest on your own?

Yes, spell it out.
What has changed for your cause?

l, tell me why it is that despite roundly denying the veracity of the NIST fire spread/intensity studies, the sole attempt to dispute them comes not from a fire engineer, not from an engineer of any stripe, but from a carpenter. Tell me why, despite denying the veracity of NIST FEAs, and all non-NIST engineering studies for that matter, AE911T has yet to produce a report of the scope and quality with which to actually bolster that dispute.

All this flying in the face of the touting of the support of some 2000+ engineers and architects who, one would suppose, not only morally support the cause, but would also be willing to offer their services to the cause.

I have asked this so many times in the past I have lost count. Nary a reply let alone explanation.

AE911T makes so much about the length of time it took NIST to publish their final report on WTC7 (ignoring, of course, the stated reasons for doing it last),,, so Basile, I am sure, has a very very good reason for taking at least as long to do his minor testing and report.

What has changed,Ziggi?
EXACTLY how has your cause been advanced by having tfk withdraw from an internet forum debate?

EXACTLY how has tfk withdrawing from debate increased the technical veracity of the claims of AE911T?

Go ahead, spoon feed away, we are listening .

 

[skyeagle409]

Hell, I'm just waiting for someone to tie in all 4 crashes in such a manner that it makes sense more than what actually happened. They can't even get over that 1st hurdle.

I like to use al-Qaeda's martyr videos and tie the names of the 9/11 hijackers in its videos with the passenger manifest of American 11, American 77, United 93 and United 175. We can also compare images of the 9/11 hijackers on airport video monitors with their images on al-Qaeda's martyr videos.

 

[Oystein]

You really need this spoon-fed to you? The word "educational" was uniquely red just like the quote from TFK it referred to. Can you work out the rest on your own?

The question was "Who, specifically, has been educated?"

I fail to see how coloring the character string "#educational" red answer a question that start with the word "Who".

It's like

Ziggi: "#educational"
Ziggi's mum: "Who wants more potatoes?"
Ziggi: "#educational"
Ziggi's mum: ""

 

[Myriad]

The purpose of debate is to weigh the relative merits of different proposed plausible future courses of action, such as whether or not to enact a particular law, or which projects to spend public money on.

Remind me again, what proposed future courses of action were Tony and tfk debating?

 

[beachnut]

....#educational...significance of this event?

9/11 truth has no evidence for the lies they spread. Got it, 15 years of no evidence false claims.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

TFK's original statement of intention for the debate that he ended up running away from, post 1 of this thread:







That is the point; there is no need to change the trend of our loudest and proudest opponents making a big stink as they are being flushed down the toilet. Do you need more detailed explanations about the...#educational...significance of this event?

So we had a debate between two people who didn't and don't understand the Collapse mechanisms, big deal the side thread to the debate was the educational part far more
Interesting than the debate.

 

[jaydeehess]

The question was "Who, specifically, has been educated?"

I fail to see how coloring the character string "#educational" red answer a question that start with the word "Who".

It is quite typical of truthers.

Every meme they follow is a 'look at that, it suspicious, think about it'. There are sounds that sound like explosions, the collapses look like demolitions, aircraft perform maneuvers that are unusual (yes, the pilots did not give a #### if they crashed, in fact that was the whole idea),,,,, so Think about it.

Even the thermite issue follows this line. Its a "Oh if we find thermite it should not be there, it can melt steel, therefore it is suspicious and if you think about it then thermite must have brought down the structures". Is there a coherent scenario as to how thermite would be used to bring down these structures? NO! In fact the speculation, and face it no scenario for thermite use has ever risen above pure speculation, of thermite use has been questioned and every time it is then AE911T changes the scenario. Of course they can do that, it's all speculation anyway with absolutely no study, no research at all to back it. It is akin to writing a fictional novel and having an editor point out technical issues. No problem just re-write.
Remember, thermite was first introduced because there were no sounds of the heavy explosions required to destroy the columns of the towers. Thermite was relatively silent. It was pointed out that thermite is too slow. Then it morphed to nano-thermite, and then explosive thermite, but high explosive is high explosive and still requires a supersonic pressure wave, ok so then it became 'thermite was used to ignite conventional explosives'. Round round we go...........

So of course Ziggi would not answer your question directly, it's all a 'think about it' line. If I were to guess it is supposed to go like this:
- TFK boasted about being a real engineer and that he would destroy Tony's arguments. TFK then abandoned the debate. Thus Truthers declare Tony the winner of the debate. Since TFK promoted himself as a spokesperson for all "real engineers, Tony has then won against all engineering arguments, no real engineer can withstand Tony's arguments. Since Tony has won against all engineers the entire 'official story' has fallen apart thus they may revel in the huge increase in the veracity of their claims.


I do of course invite Ziggi to correct my interpretation. Problem is that when you actually have to detail your argument it often reveals the questions you beg, and fallacies involved. In my assumed truther interpretation above I am sure everyone can see the issues with it. Not the least of which are:

EXACTLY how has the cause been advanced by having tfk withdraw from an internet forum debate?

EXACTLY how has tfk withdrawing from debate increased the technical veracity of the claims of AE911T?

 

[jaydeehess]

There was little truther input for the thread "summary of the tower collapses"
Despite Bazant, the collapse mechanism is described there:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11224323&postcount=413

 

[Ziggi]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yes, I think I do. Who, specifically, has been educated? ...Dave

You really need this spoon-fed to you? The word "educational" was uniquely red just like the quote from TFK it referred to. Can you work out the rest on your own?

I suppose remaining silent rather than trolling the discussion for someone in your position is a sign of some intelligence - "some" meaning relevant to your buddies here. Seeing the clueless non-responses from some of your fellow "debunkers" are good for a laugh though.

For the record, the red word #educational was a reference to the following text, specifically the hilited part:

TFK's original statement of intention for the debate that he ended up running away from, post 1 of this thread:

I would really, Really, REALLY like this debate to be illustrative of a competent engineer (that'd be me) addressing the technical issues of the Truth Movement. I'd like it to be educational for those that are new to the debate.

Those new to the debate did indeed get a lesson, albeit not the one TFK had so pompously set out; quite the opposite. It could be argued that TFK taught himself a hard lesson as well, along the way.