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Brexit: Now What? Part II

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They have limited independence from Westminster for as long as Westminster allows them to have it. Westminster could scrap the devolved Parliaments tomorrow if they wanted to.

Scrapping is one thing (and as McHrozni states above, would be politically dangerous), but allowing the SP (for example) to continue while ignoring the agreements which exist between it and Westminster seems to be the point being argued about. And of course, the legal strength of those agreements. As I said above, it is notable that the SC does not seem to be wholly persuaded by the government's argument that it can do as it pleases. This Brexit hearing could lead to some interesting clarifications regarding devolved powers.

Or not. I'm certainly not an expert. :)
 
Scrapping is one thing (and as McHrozni states above, would be politically dangerous), but allowing the SP (for example) to continue while ignoring the agreements which exist between it and Westminster seems to be the point being argued about. And of course, the legal strength of those agreements. As I said above, it is notable that the SC does not seem to be wholly persuaded by the government's argument that it can do as it pleases. This Brexit hearing could lead to some interesting clarifications regarding devolved powers.

Or not. I'm certainly not an expert. :)

If Westminster wanted control over a devolved power they could simply un-devolve it. There would be nothing constitutionally to stop them. Only the political fallout.
 
If Westminster wanted control over a devolved power they could simply un-devolve it. There would be nothing constitutionally to stop them. Only the political fallout.

That would presumably be a decision for the Parliament in Westminster, of course, and not the government using the Royal Prerogative. As I understand it.

A late ETA:

And the government is arguing that it doesn't even need to un-devolve anything in order to override the SP or WA's existing "powers". Will this sit well?
 
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Your 'explanation' merely digs a hole further for yourself. Rationalising your Islamophobia doesn't make it any more palatable.

You aren't required to like it, admitting it was rational was enough. Do you understand why?

Not everything in this world is palatable. The sooner you realize it the better.

You may think that the correct course of action for someone wanting to help Muslims in a warzone is actually not to help them but instead to demonise not only them but all people of the same religion. However Merkel disagrees (thankfully). She should be praised for being just about the only leader willing to step up to the plate while others were fudging the issue but instead the usual suspects vilify her for not pandering to their base desires.

I didn't mention any of that, you're again projecting something you want to debate on me. Of course Muslims in distress should be helped in the same way any other group of people in a similar situation should. Furthermore, I didn't mention anything about demonizing anyone. I even explicitly said that the fear of Islam does not mean hatred of all Muslims, which you apparently missed completely in your quest to denounce me.

What you haven't done in your 'explanation' is how how simply adopting another person's policies to keep them sweet in order to prevent said person getting in power an enacting those policies when you disagree with them helps anyone.

Mainly by not adopting their policies. I explained my proposal in adequate detail here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11609791&postcount=119

It's in the last section. You're free to try to find what is wrong with that, but please stop inventing my positions, attributing them to me and then knocking them over like a straw man. It's considered impolite.

But hey, it looks like your version is poised to win, gas chambers and all. You will be so proud. :rolleyes:

McHrozni
 
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You aren't required to like it, admitting it was rational was enough. Do you understand why?

Your rationalising it doesn't make it rational. All bigots think their bigotry is rational.

Not everything in this world is palatable. The sooner you realize it the better.

But the goal of decent people should be to minimise the unpalatable rather than dive head first into embracing it.

I didn't mention any of that, you're again projecting something you want to debate on me. Of course Muslims in distress should be helped in the same way any other group of people in a similar situation should. Furthermore, I didn't mention anything about demonizing anyone. I even explicitly said that the fear of Islam does not mean hatred of all Muslims, which you apparently missed completely in your quest to denounce me.

Except you did. You called these people in distress 'hordes' . You were quite clear that Merkel was wrong to take them in. Then you went a step further by claiming 'those same Muslims in France' were responsible for killing people. So straightaway you've generalising from terrorists to 'Muslims in France'.

It's the same 'reasoning' that the bigots use to defend their positions.

Mainly by not adopting their policies. I explained my proposal in adequate detail here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11609791&postcount=119

It's in the last section. You're free to try to find what is wrong with that, but please stop inventing my positions, attributing them to me and then knocking them over like a straw man. It's considered impolite.

So why were you criticising Merkel for letting in refugees then?

But hey, it looks like your version is poised to win, gas chambers and all. You will be so proud. :rolleyes:

McHrozni

Yes this nonsense gets spouted in relation to Trump as well. That people should abandon their principles and adopt bigotry just a little to pander to the real bigots. And if we don't then we deserve everything we get and we can be blamed for what the bigots do after that. It's nonsense.
 
I even explicitly said that the fear of Islam does not mean hatred of all Muslims, which you apparently missed completely in your quest to denounce me.
That's very good, but it makes complete nonsense of your complacency about Fillon in France concerning whom you have blithely observed to me:
You just described every right-wing opposition hopeful anywhere. Yes, that's what they campaign on, that's what they promise and that's what occasionally deliver. What of it?
What of it?
This is an interesting angle from Fillon. I don't think his version of the "deplorables" have the grit required for mano a mano with the mad mullahs. What is to be done? Let us imagine

"Boss, we hear you want to raise retirement ages, reduce workers' rights and cut social security."
"So I do. Because of the economic crisis. You want to do something very constructive about that? Make yourselves really useful?"
"Yes Boss."
"Then go harass some brown-skinned girls and women on the beach. Safe. Good fun, and you're helping your country too, to save it from these weirdo aliens."

Here's Fillon quoted in Figaro, 19 August. My translation.
"The burkini is a mere avatar of the burqa and it isn't based on religious rules or a cultural dimension, said the Right's candidate in the primary election. Rejecting the "reasoning that justifies wearing the burkini on grounds of individual freedom, or the right of women to wear whatever garments they choose", which he describes as "sophism", M Fillon calls for wearing the burkini to be seen within an inherently political dimension."

He supported the mayors who tried to ban it on French beaches during the holiday season. "The mayors who issued regulations banning the burkini were behaving responsibly in an emergency situation (contexte d'état d'urgence)... and I support them"​

(My bolding) So why does a traditionalist catholic see woman wearing unrevealing garments on beaches as an "emergency" requiring formal intervention from the municipal authorities? Because the wearers are Muslims. But this clothing is no more an emergency, dangerous to other people, than orthodox side curls are, and were in 1933. Yet you think this prohibition is all perfectly normal, do you? What of it? You ask regarding Fillon's prejudice.

The last time, back in the thirties, Jewish side curls were cut, orthodox women's wigs pulled off, and then synagogues burned and sacred scrolls destroyed, before the people themselves were murdered. The object of attack is a different ethno-religious group this time, reflecting international political developments, but the diversionary functionality of the abuse is precisely the same. May heaven decree that the outcome will not be.
 
Then why cannot everyone choose not to wear a helmet without penalty? After all, one would simply be voluntarily giving up a protection, right? Or Seatbelts, for that matter.

In principal I don’t disagree (although with age I've mellowed on the subject since my 'Fred Hill Run' days) but it's a valid distinction when comparing to the wearing of full face coverings in public.
 
But the goal of decent people should be to minimise the unpalatable rather than dive head first into embracing it.

I have done so.

Except you did. You called these people in distress 'hordes' . You were quite clear that Merkel was wrong to take them in. Then you went a step further by claiming 'those same Muslims in France' were responsible for killing people. So straightaway you've generalising from terrorists to 'Muslims in France'.

My analysis was way deeper than that. You might want to read it rather than just jumping to conclusions based on a few words here and there.

So why were you criticising Merkel for letting in refugees then?

First of all, people who fled their country and settled in a safe country and lived there unpersecuted for several years, then moved over five or more safe countries to reach their desired destination because they wanted a better life for themselves are hardly refugees. They're economic migrants. Does Germany offer the same deal to anyone seeking a better life?

That said, Muslims shouldn't be treated any worse than another human being. The same applies to priviledges though. Or is that somehow hard to grasp? It's usually called equality.

Yes this nonsense gets spouted in relation to Trump as well. That people should abandon their principles and adopt bigotry just a little to pander to the real bigots. And if we don't then we deserve everything we get and we can be blamed for what the bigots do after that. It's nonsense.

Yes, I'm sure you have lots of way better ideas on how to combat anti-Islamic sentiment, but never have the time to express them. :rolleyes:

Just so you know, spouting nonsense in the usual "it's not Islam" fashion is not a better idea than what I have.

You may start giving counter-proposals by the way.

McHrozni
 
(My bolding) So why does a traditionalist catholic see woman wearing unrevealing garments on beaches as an "emergency" requiring formal intervention from the municipal authorities?

I cropped the silly nonsense that deserved no response, I'll just address this - no, burqua and especially burkini bans are stupid and counterproductive. They're just a way for non-extremist politicians to capture the deplorable vote, which is significant in swaying elections lately.

Not great, but if you denounce them on the basis of one such problem and readily embrace Islam as the victim despite it's numerous and far worse problems, you have some serious explaining to do.

Why the double standard, for starters. You may begin explaining now.

McHrozni
 
I cropped the silly nonsense that deserved no response, I'll just address this - no, burqua and especially burkini bans are stupid and counterproductive. They're just a way for non-extremist politicians to capture the deplorable vote, which is significant in swaying elections lately.

Not great, but if you denounce them on the basis of one such problem and readily embrace Islam as the victim despite it's numerous and far worse problems, you have some serious explaining to do.

Why the double standard, for starters. You may begin explaining now.

McHrozni
You don't want an explanation. Nobody who does commences a message with "I cropped the silly nonsense" and ends it "You may begin explaining now" wants constructive communication with a correspondent. The designed function of your message is not to elicit a response from me, but evidently to prevent me from giving one.

Your arguments, which are a consistent paean of praise for ethno-religious bigotry and extremism, are in fact self refuting. You claim to support these evils in order to avert the victory of some other force that promotes them in even greater measure. But that is absurd. Racism is wrong. It's not something that can be administered in small doses like smallpox vaccine, to avert a more acute infection of the same ailment. And in any case, it is evident from your own posted arguments that you are quite a vigorous islamophobe in your own right.

That is the beginning and the end of the explanation that your post deserves, and will receive from me.
 
I have done so.



My analysis was way deeper than that. You might want to read it rather than just jumping to conclusions based on a few words here and there.



First of all, people who fled their country and settled in a safe country and lived there unpersecuted for several years, then moved over five or more safe countries to reach their desired destination because they wanted a better life for themselves are hardly refugees. They're economic migrants. Does Germany offer the same deal to anyone seeking a better life?

That said, Muslims shouldn't be treated any worse than another human being. The same applies to priviledges though. Or is that somehow hard to grasp? It's usually called equality.



Yes, I'm sure you have lots of way better ideas on how to combat anti-Islamic sentiment, but never have the time to express them. :rolleyes:

Just so you know, spouting nonsense in the usual "it's not Islam" fashion is not a better idea than what I have.

You may start giving counter-proposals by the way.

McHrozni

I'm not going to get into yet another islamophobia argument on this forum its a pointless waste of time trying to disabuse people of their prejudices. You've made clear your views and motivation, more than you probably think you have. Luckily there are plenty of people who know appeasing fascists never works and giving an inch is the cue for them to take a mile.

Your argument holds zero water and is completely unconvincing to me.
 
For heaven's sake, issues such as this deserve broader treatment. Across Europe, there is a common element of fear, and it does happen to relate to recent mass immigration by Muslims. You then have the factual terrorist events in France and Germany, regardless of the probability still being extremely low of anyone being affected by such an event. It is well known such visible and sensational events carry more weight in public judgment than strict statistics would warrant. Now, leaving aside for a moment your own evaluation of whether any objection is Islamophobic or not, regardless, you now have, at minimum, to devise a way to lead public opinion to overcome that fear. How that might be done could go way off topic for this thread. But the topic of Islam is most definitely germane to the broader trends of which Brexit is part.

[To continue briefly, given the recent rise of fascism and its close cousins, if one is to counter such a global increase in absolutism with fair argument, the logic must apply equally, in same measure, to all manner of political, social, and religious doctrine, or suffer the accusation of bias in design. In essence, if the core value required for a sound democracy is equality before the law ~ an equality not derived from doctrinal adherence, other merit, or identity ~ then no doctrine of any provenance that would explicitly deny such equality in law can be accepted in a democracy, or if accepted, will destroy it from within.]
 
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no doctrine of any provenance that would explicitly deny such equality in law can be accepted in a democracy, or if accepted, will destroy it from within.]
Clever. You could have simply said that in their social practice citizens of a democracy must accept such equality as the basis of their conduct towards others, which is the factual situation. It is the one that I would apply to fascists, religious believers and all other citizens.
But you have cunningly produced a form of verbiage that includes the "provenance" of a "doctrine", such that a doctrine of said provenance may be treated as destructive of democracy. By which you presumably mean that citizens must not expound it, regardless of their behaviour in practice.
So we have to ban not misbehaviour, but acceptance of "doctrine". That's going back a bit. You've gone all mediaeval on us!
What doctrine do you have in mind, whose exponents have to be treated as destructive of democracy, and what sanction do you suggest be applied in their case?
 
So at the Supreme Court today the government's lawyer said:

Earlier the government's lawyer, James Eadie QC, said ministers could prepare a "one-line act" if they are forced to consult Parliament before triggering Brexit, and "certainly won't" set out possible arguments and how it intends to negotiate.
"The solution in legal terms is a one-line act," he said, adding: "It may be that would lead to all sorts of Parliamentary complications and possible additions and amendments and so on, but that's the solution."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38219928

Hardly has he gotten the words out than the BBC is reporting this:

But now, government sources have told BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg that an amendment has been put forward by Downing Street, agreeing to publishing a plan, in exchange for a commitment to invoking Article 50 before the end of March 2017.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38224169

This latest U-turn was apparently inspired not by any sudden insight about a plan for Brexit but because a number of Tory MPs were threatening to back Labour in a Opposition Day debate that Labour has chosen to commit to the matter at hand on Wednesday.
 
. Luckily there are plenty of people who know appeasing fascists never works and giving an inch is the cue for them to take a mile.

You know what? I agree with you. Appeasing fascists never works.

The thing is, you're guilty of precisely that: appeasing fascists. Islam at it's core is a deeply xenophobic, supremacist, totalitarian ideology. Calling it fascist is being really mild. Yet somehow Germany is allowed to ban Swastika armbands but is appeasing fascists when it tries to partially ban the burqa.

The problem is that some people are simply unwilling to see some ideologies as they are. The fact they worship an invisible wizard in the sky and that their culture hasn't come to dominate the globe makes them immune to all meaningful criticism. These same people then criticize people who dare (the nerve!) to speak out against this fascist ideology as xenophobes. The fact their approach got us Charlie Hebdo, Batacalan, Marseille, Brexit, AfD, FN and Trump doesn't seem to bother them at all. Their way is right and they will fight tooth and nail to suppress dissenting opinion - in the name of fighting fascism, no less :rolleyes:

McHrozni
 
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