Minority Groups "Special Rights"

It strikes me as simplistic to think that discrimination is the only driver of disparity when we're so obviously a sexually dimorphic species. They've been saying for a while that men and women are from different planets, and it's not for no reason.

I don't know to what extent gender differences play a role or not but again there must be some definition of 'reasonable' somewhere. An office which employs 5% or 2% or 1% women is an issue surely? If it's 30% then maybe that's within a reasonable band.

I'm not sure the same logic holds for race though. At some point an office with no black employees is surely a statistical anomaly.

It seems a bit like you are trying to find excuses for the imbalances. Perhaps turn the system on its head and ask companies to provide evidence to support why their workforces are not gender or race balanced? If you have 1% women that's fine provided you can show evidence of why that's the case. No women applied? Fine, move on.
 
It strikes me as simplistic to think that discrimination is the only driver of disparity when we're so obviously a sexually dimorphic species. They've been saying for a while that men and women are from different planets, and it's not for no reason.

I think I'll not touch that one. One lady poster here wears spiked boots. But as for positive discrimination, the term is not meaningless or a fig leaf. Let us take a continuum for sake of argument that group A, a minority, can be employed zero percent of the time, with the other end of the scale at a level comensurate with skill sets and other objective measures (remember, we eliminated skills as a motive for non-hire already). If group A is near parity, no action. At any point below parity, any action to redress the situation, assuming fixed jobs, means group B, the majority, loses net employment. I would agree that is how it should be, providing it is a real bias being addressed (and we can show real bias).

However, this is not the end of the story, which many forget. By bringing a new group into franchise, demand patterns change, adjustments are made, and new product-markets arise that were not there before. There is net growth from not disenfranchising - let's use a business perspective - a perfectly valid demographic my FMCG buddies can then go wild about. So I very much more support positive discrimination, given a certain degree of bias in the labor, housing, employment markets.
 
I think I'll not touch that one. One lady poster here wears spiked boots. But as for positive discrimination, the term is not meaningless or a fig leaf. Let us take a continuum for sake of argument that group A, a minority, can be employed zero percent of the time, with the other end of the scale at a level comensurate with skill sets and other objective measures (remember, we eliminated skills as a motive for non-hire already). If group A is near parity, no action. At any point below parity, any action to redress the situation, assuming fixed jobs, means group B, the majority, loses net employment. I would agree that is how it should be, providing it is a real bias being addressed (and we can show real bias).

However, this is not the end of the story, which many forget. By bringing a new group into franchise, demand patterns change, adjustments are made, and new product-markets arise that were not there before. There is net growth from not disenfranchising - let's use a business perspective - a perfectly valid demographic my FMCG buddies can then go wild about. So I very much more support positive discrimination, given a certain degree of bias in the labor, housing, employment markets.

I think there is certainly an argument to be made in favour of a diverse workforce but I don't think that's a justification for government policy to enforce it. It may be reason for corporate policy to enforce it.
 
I think there is certainly an argument to be made in favour of a diverse workforce but I don't think that's a justification for government policy to enforce it. It may be reason for corporate policy to enforce it.

Once subject to test over a period of time, would you then agree some other measure might be needed? Reason I ask is that we already have a data set of decades after the Civil Rights Act, and regardless, we have the objective measures of corporate performance indicating bias. Self-policing when bias is involved is a bit "fox guarding the hen house."
 
Once subject to test over a period of time, would you then agree some other measure might be needed? Reason I ask is that we already have a data set of decades after the Civil Rights Act, and regardless, we have the objective measures of corporate performance indicating bias. Self-policing when bias is involved is a bit "fox guarding the hen house."

No I just mean if it's better to hire a diverse workforce then that is something companies can choose to do or not. Companies are free to hamstring themselves with all kinds of daft policies.

If it's wrong to not hire minorities then the government has to get involved regardless of whether its beneficial or not for businesses.

So you can't justify AA by saying it's for their own good. It's justified because it's the right thing to do. Or it isn't.
 
The choice is to do something which isn't perfect or do nothing and accept that minorities will just have to be disadvantaged in the meantime.

Well as I said ealier, someone else (not me) might argue that the not-perfect-something disadvantages the majority, instead.

I don't know to what extent gender differences play a role or not but again there must be some definition of 'reasonable' somewhere. An office which employs 5% or 2% or 1% women is an issue surely? If it's 30% then maybe that's within a reasonable band.

Depends. What if only 2% of the applicants are women? That certainly should factor into the judgment.

I'm not sure the same logic holds for race though.

No, I'm sure whatever differences in interest exist between the "races" are mostly, perhaps entirely, cultural.

It seems a bit like you are trying to find excuses for the imbalances.

I'm trying to make sure we're considering all of the factors rather than jump to a conclusion.
 
First I would ask for proof that there actually is a cultural blockage that presently exists in the profession in question. Not a historic one - but a clearly demonstrable present one.I would then enforce the anti-discrimination laws already in effect in my country to combat the issue.
Penalizing a person today for being the "wrong" race or gender in an effort to right a historic wrong is not the way forward.

Evidence (proof) includes statistics to summarize data points.
Data points can be recent but are never current, therefore by definition are historic.
You are not going to find many instances of some particular guy acting deliberately to block access to a school or profession. That would be very difficult to find.
Limiting the evidence in the way you suggest would be unreasonable.
 
I have been hearing more people talking about the "Special Rights" that minority groups are getting, and how scary it is. We saw this as part of the so called "push back" in the US elections.

What I am confused about though are what these so-called special rights that groups, such as the LGBTQ community, have, actually are? What rights do they have or have been given that members of those groups don't have? What makes these rights special?

Is it the right to be judged as an employee by your work and qualifications and not your gender identity or sexuality?

Is it the right to be served as a customer at any business regardless of race, gender, or sexuality?

Is it the right to rent a home or a room at a hotel or B&B without being denied because of your race, or sexuality?

Is it the right to form a public and officially, legally, recognised and licensed relationship with the person you love regardless of their race or gender?

Is it the right to go to the bathroom of your choosing without being harassed and threatened because you fail to conform to gender stereotypes?

Is it the right to walk down the street without fear of being harassed, attacked, or worse because of your race, sexuality, or gender?

Is it the right not be be arrested and made into a criminal because of who you are or who you love?

What exactly are these special rights?

Perhaps someone on the Right can explain it to me, cause I don't get it.

The right to go on and on and on about how they are LGBTQ and moan about it.

While no one else cares
 
How would you suggest working to get more minorities into a profession where there is a significant cultural blockage to their doing so?

BTW for me, I'd even like to see a Affirmative Action to get more men into jobs like Nursing and Pre-secondary School Teaching.

Only, and only if, they have the appropriate skills to do the job otherwise it is a sham, a farce, and a mockery.
 
As to why I disagree with the idea of Affirmative Action, it's because I agree that discrimination based on race or gender is wrong.

I actually kind of agree with affirmative action, but I agree it's potentially a dangerous path to travel on.

The other problem I have is how it is implemented. In my own experience it can lead to getting mediocre candidates who would otherwise not be considered if they were white (in the racial example). If you are going to do it, I think you should actively go out into the communities you better want to represent and head hunt/ develop the best talent you can find.
 
It's funny: white Americans oppress and exploit blacks for centuries and when, relatively recently during the 60's, they finally become treated as de jure equals throughout the entire country it's somehow reasonable to expect blacks to achieve the same level of economic and social prosperity as white Americans without any help along the way.


Asians do it.

Jews were literally attempted to be wiped off the face of the earth. I bet even in Germany Jews do well.
 
Because women in general aren't very interested in that? Men aren't very interested in hairstyling, either. There are more women educators and social workers, and such. It's no surprise, given that men and women are different in a lot of respects.

No, this is a cop out and not backed by research. Barriers to entry into the trades is on both sides of Employment. Girls get less encouragement into Trade Jobs, most that do enter are older having first tried out the "Female" jobs and not liked them. They get less education in the basics at school, either not getting the chances to study those courses (usually the result of an all girls' school education) or are discouraged from taking the courses.

That results in about 1 in 10 applicants for Apprenticeships being female. But by the time that they complete they are less than 1 in 50. 80% of female Trade Apprentices drop out and the reasons that they give when surveyed are not because of lack of interest. They are highly interested in the work, but not the environments.

It's surprisingly simple things that can create a hostile environment. Imagine that for your job you need to wear safety gear, but none of it fits. Your boots are too big and the wrong shape for your feet. Safety googles are too large and hard to use and keep in place. Your helmet is too big and moves about on your head. Your overalls are the wrong shape for your body, being tight and rubbing in some places and completely loose in others. Beyond that you can't get changed or shower in your workplace, even though there is a high change of getting dirty on the job. There is often no toilet for you either on the jobsite, you need to either use a chemical toilet that smells and requires that you lower your clothing into the muck on the floor or that you head over to other nearby businesses that might let you use theirs. Even in your workplace, you have to walk across the entire site to the admin wing for the toilets there. How long would you put up with this sort of thing to keep your job, even if you liked it? These are the kind of things that female trades people have to put up with on a daily basis.

Specifically for girls? I wasn't aware that carpentry classes were men-only. Well, actually, they're not. Anyone can get in. How does AA change that?

How many Girls' Schools offer shop? Here it is extreme recent that such courses were offered to them.

How will forcing more women into the industry help with that? The men who engage in this sort of behaviour have to be prosecuted. Again, that has nothing to do with AA.

Men tend to actually behave better when multiple women are about. In Australia they have a term "Ducks on the pond" to refer to there being multiple women on a jobsite and to improve behaviours. With more women in the professions it becomes less of a man's club and bad behaviours start to cease.

As to prosecution. Most women effected don't complain because they fear for their jobs and ability to continue to work in a tight knit community. Many small to medium businesses have no policies on behaviour nor rules on how to deal with it even if complaints are made, and finally, sexual harassment in the workplace is not a criminal offence, so how would you prosecute it?

That's also part of the social change I talked about: changing attitudes towards women and minorities will be the most important aspect, but it takes a long time.

Social change does need to occur, but doing nothing won't cause it to happen because people who have no requirement to do so will never change. Social Change comes because people force society to change. People forced the abolition of slavery. People forced the gaining of voting franchise for blacks and woman. People forced the end of segregation. People forced the ending of homosexuality being illegal. People forced the Right of Marriage Equality.

Without these things having been forced through, sometimes with force of arms and sometimes with the power of the courts, none of these things would have happened in our societies.

Have you considered the possibility that they simply become uninterested during the course of the class? You're saying that "not interested" is not true but how would you know? When you ask women in general why they don't go in STEM, what's the answer? Same for men, I'd think: not good in those fields, or not interested.

Again you go for the cop out. And interesting that you bring up STEM... Funny thing, women outnumber men as Graduates in Chemistry and Biology, they clearly can understand and like science, so perhaps it's something else... This is an interesting read.

It is popular to characterize the gender gap in tech in terms of a pipeline problem: not enough girls studying math and science. However, there are several indications that this may no longer be the case, at least not to the extent that it once was. High school girls and boys participate about equally in STEM electives. Elite institutions like Stanford and Berkeley now report that about 50% of their introductory computer science students are women. Yet just last year, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that men are employed in STEM occupations at about twice the rate of women with the same qualifications.

Almost everyone I spoke with said that they had enjoyed the work itself. Most mothers added that they would have happily returned to their jobs a few months after giving birth, but their companies didn’t offer maternity leave and they needed to quit in order to have their kids. Some women felt that their work environments were discriminatory, but most reported something milder: the simple discomfort of not fitting in in an otherwise homogenous setting. It may not sound like a big deal if you’re used to being in the majority, but it was enough to drive many qualified engineers to quit.


That's why we have _laws_ against discrimination, and if what you're telling me is correct, they need to be enforced.

How? Even if women complain, trying to prove that it was discrimination beyond a reasonable is a or even the balance of odds if it's a civil trial, which is far more likely as Discrimination is a civil issue, not a criminal one, is extremely hard unless those doing it leave a paper trail or admit it.

And imagine for a second that you are a poor black man. You decide to go to university and have to work hard to pay for it while you study. After a very difficult number of years you graduate and then apply for a job somewhere rather prestigious. You go to the interview, things go well, and you are later hired. Yay! Only some months later you learn that you got the job over some white over-achiever because you're black. How insulting would it be to learn that, no, it's not because you were more desirable than your competitors?

The trouble is that your story is a strawman. If we take our poor black man who works hard and is hired, then the reality even under AA is that he was hired on merit, unless you are going to go with the theory that no blacks can be as good at the job and have the grades and abilities to do a prestigious job than whites. AA isn't a stance that you have to hire people that aren't suitable to the job, but rather it means that employers that either blocked employing minorities or refused to consider employing them, now need to get out of that headspace and allow those hirings. Once they stop looking at race or gender, the numbers will be there naturally. Unless of course you are suggesting that minorities can't be as good as white men.
 
How many jobs have a 50% Quota?

For high profile: Yahoo and 80%. Currently being sued. I suspect it would take some lawsuits to get good view at issue...

===

Anyway, AA is nonsense. It may have "Nice and good" intentions but it is same thing like policies/ideas of old. Just reversed. Nothing good can and will come from it. And misses a lot of real problems whose solutions would actually fix up a lot of things and help everybody. (uber-expensive education with massive debt, absence of some kinds of school, disparity between school districts,...) And also it "conveniently" forgets that not every job is interested to all groups equally. (like various manual labor - often messy, hard, often physically intensive and demanding)

AA is good just for breeding and sustaining: contempt, resent, devaluation of successful "protected". Also twists badly job market and education system.
 
I'm sure we can find outliers but if we look at the general rule, you have civilisations very much detached from each other that all followed the same general guidelines: men hunt, rule and wage war; women take care of the home and family, among other things. My guess is the near-universality of this simply stems from the fact that it was arranged that way "in the wild" and got carried over, justifiably or not, when we transitioned to civilisation.

I'd still like to discuss why you think there should be a distribution equal to the general population's for any given field.


Can you support that?
 
For high profile: Yahoo and 80%. Currently being sued. I suspect it would take some lawsuits to get good view at issue...

===

Anyway, AA is nonsense. It may have "Nice and good" intentions but it is same thing like policies/ideas of old. Just reversed. Nothing good can and will come from it. And misses a lot of real problems whose solutions would actually fix up a lot of things and help everybody. (uber-expensive education with massive debt, absence of some kinds of school, disparity between school districts,...) And also it "conveniently" forgets that not every job is interested to all groups equally. (like various manual labor - often messy, hard, often physically intensive and demanding)

AA is good just for breeding and sustaining: contempt, resent, devaluation of successful "protected". Also twists badly job market and education system.

Nothing good can come from it? I would bet a high proportion of minorities who have jobs or education because of it would disagree.
 
Well as I said ealier, someone else (not me) might argue that the not-perfect-something disadvantages the majority, instead.

They could argue it but could they show evidence of it? i.e. a disproportionate level of white males not being hired?


Depends. What if only 2% of the applicants are women? That certainly should factor into the judgment.

It should. Which is why I said the employer could be able to present evidence to justify their lack of diversity. All that would do would be to push the source of the problem somewhere else though. Why are only 2% applying? Is there something about the place that is unattractive to minorities or women?

I'm trying to make sure we're considering all of the factors rather than jump to a conclusion.

I'm not jumping to a conclusion I'm just suggesting that we change the burden of proof. Rather than fudging the issue lets have those businesses demonstrate that there were no qualified women applying for the role before we offer it as a possible excuse.

There may be legitimate reasons for a lack of diversity in certain employers but they certainly aren't the norm in a whole host of professions.
 

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