Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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That's a valid difference of opinion of course. And if Rudy did gain entry via the front door (either by persuading Kercher to let him in, or by ambushing Kercher as soon as she opened the door), it's still entirely logical to think that Guede would have had a strong motive for throwing the rock through Romanelli's window (either he did it before entering the house, to test whether anyone was home, or he did it after the murder, in order to mislead investigators away from anyone whom Kercher might have had enough knowledge by sight to allow him to enter the house).

I certainly could see a viable scenario along the following lines: Guede cases the house at around 8.40-8.50pm, and finds it quiet and dark. He waits a while to double-check. Then at just before 9.00pm he quickly scales the wall to Romanelli's sill and opens the outer shutter. He drops back to the ground, waits a while longer in the shadows (to check whether anyone saw or reacted to him scaling the wall), then goes up to the parking parapet area and throws the rock through the window - as a final check as to whether there are any people in the cottage or the apartment below, and whether anyone else in the vicinity would react. Having thrown the rock, Guede once again retreats into the shadows of the bushes.

But then Kercher comes down the driveway. Guede thinks on his feet. He emerges from the bushes. He tells Kercher that he was coming to see if the boys in the downstairs apartment were in (they were not), and he saw Romanelli's broken window. He was having a look around outside to see if he could see anyone, and that's why he emerged from the bushes. He tells Kercher that he could come into the cottage with her to see if anyone was inside (and to provide obvious defence muscle if anyone was inside) and to see what damage might have been done. A grateful but wary Kercher, frightened by the thought of there being one or more burglars inside the cottage, agrees to Guede coming inside with her to check. And the rest leads on from there...........

This is as well-postulated as this potentiality can get, I think; but, in terms of efficiency of action, it fails Occam's Razor. My strong sense is Rudy would be motivated - as in "let's get this done" - and be moving quickly. He'd broken into premises before, and wouldn't be so timorous, I don't think.

In terms of psychology, I don't buy that Rudy's tendencies toward predation extended to him approaching Meredith as she entered, and talking his way in. (I also think Meredith wouldn't have been persuaded, and would've made some noise as she tried to turn him away.) His psychology strikes me as more stunted than that. A would-be smooth talker only when absolutely necessary, as in the Milan nursery school.

I think he coveted the girls, yes. Broke in, perhaps fantasized a bit as he went through their refrigerator and belongings. But, had not Meredith fatefully entered, he'd have been more than content to go the cat burglar route, make his escape with what he could carry and get lost into the night.

In general, I think your first pass above nails it.
 
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"We" have established nothing of the sort. For heavens sake, even the prosecution's DNA expert, Prof Novelli, said that Stefanoni did not follow international standards with regard to the number of amplifications required to establish a reliable result.

There are no, none, forensic-DNA experts who join you in this fictional "we". You cannot name one. You've been asked dozens of times - and you skip that part to move to the dishonest claim of a "we have established."

To quote Welshman.....


Citation please.
 
This is NOT for Vixen, because I really don't want to provide a citation for her until she starts providing citations for her own outrageous claims.

This is for everyone else.

The source is the 2014 Nencini report where on page 213ff. Nencini summarizes the evidence as given in 2011 to the Hellmann court by prosecution expert Prof Novelli and civil party expert Toricelli.

The cite Nencini gives from Prof Novelli regards the reasons why Stefanoni did not follow protocol in doing multiple amplifications of the small samples. Novelli concedes that Stefanoni did not follow protocols; indeed that if such evidence as Stefanoni looked at was inadmissible, then: " "otherwise we would have to call into question all the DNA analyses ever done from 1986-87 until now, at least in our country.” (Pages 57-60 of the transcript of the hearing of 6 September 2011 at the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia)"

In summarizing Novelli's and Torricelli's earlier testimony, Nencini - incredibly given his eventual verdict - concludes:

There remains the fact that only a single amplification was made, and that as correctly objected by the defense of the accused, in order to have a reliable attribution, international protocols call for at least one repetition of the amplification, which was not possible in the present case due to the small quantity in the sample.​
I don't want Vixen to see this because it will make her think she can request citations when she never gives any of her own.
 
The salient point here is that OF COURSE there is no one piece of paper (or website, or whatever....) where "The World's Guide To The International Standards Relating To DNA Analysis, Especially At Low Template Levels" can be found. This is (obviously) because each separate jurisdiction throughout the world writes down its own version of the standards, and because no one academic or practitioner institution can claim to have authority/jurisdiction over the world.

Rather, the point is exactly as follows: academic and practitioner studies throughout the world have shown conclusively that certain protocols, procedures and standards are required to be followed/observed/practised when collecting, storing, testing, analysing and interpreting DNA samples, if the end results are to be acceptable as reliable, credible and robust. There is, indeed, empirical evidence and sound statistical analysis to back up the need for these specific protocols, procedures and standards. In the area of low-template DNA, it is more important than ever that the required protocols, procedures and standards are followed - and again, there's solid evidence to show why this must be the case.

And what happens then is that it is incumbent upon each separate jurisdiction and law-enforcement agency to be aware of the required protocols, procedures and standards, and to enshrine these in their written rules and work practices. Likewise, it's incumbent upon the court systems in each separate jurisdiction to be aware of the required protocols, procedures and standards, and to ensure that evidence placed before the courts has been processed in accordance with those standards.
 
This is NOT for Vixen, because I really don't want to provide a citation for her until she starts providing citations for her own outrageous claims.

This is for everyone else.

The source is the 2014 Nencini report where on page 213ff. Nencini summarizes the evidence as given in 2011 to the Hellmann court by prosecution expert Prof Novelli and civil party expert Toricelli.

The cite Nencini gives from Prof Novelli regards the reasons why Stefanoni did not follow protocol in doing multiple amplifications of the small samples. Novelli concedes that Stefanoni did not follow protocols; indeed that if such evidence as Stefanoni looked at was inadmissible, then: " "otherwise we would have to call into question all the DNA analyses ever done from 1986-87 until now, at least in our country.” (Pages 57-60 of the transcript of the hearing of 6 September 2011 at the Court of Assizes of Appeal of Perugia)"

In summarizing Novelli's and Torricelli's earlier testimony, Nencini - incredibly given his eventual verdict - concludes:

I don't want Vixen to see this because it will make her think she can request citations when she never gives any of her own.


We have established (see Sunday) that protocols DO allow a forensic scientist to test up to the maximum quantity he or she can.

It is only when a scientist knowingly decides not to test a sample that it would be remiss (cf Vecchiotti egregiously and in contempt of court and her professional ethics refusing to test 65(i)).

Clear now?
 
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So we can take it, Professor Novelli never said anything of the kind.

No, you cannot take that. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.

Esp. as someone who's never provided a cite, you should know the hazards of assuming that something might not be true simply by asserting it.
 
No, you cannot take that. I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.

Esp. as someone who's never provided a cite, you should know the hazards of assuming that something might not be true simply by asserting it.

Citation of where I've 'never provided a cite'.


Please don't bring up that old chestnut about 'So who's researched Stefanoni'?


As you have been told, Stefanoni is staff and not a research academic. She just follows guidelines in accordance with her job description and vow of allegiance to the police.
 
We have established (see Sunday) that protocols DO allow a forensic scientist to test up to the maximum quantity he or she can.

It is only when a scientist knowingly decides not to test a sample that it would be remiss (cf Vecchiotti gregiously and in contempt of court and her professional ethics refusing to test 65(i)).

Clear now?

Besides making no sense your post makes no sense, Vixen.

Allowing a scientist to test to whatever he or she can, offers no limitation with regard to norms and standards. What you have said, Vixen, is that if a scientist tests outside of protocol or standards it's fine....because the scientist just simply can. ...and if the scientist can, standards be damned, then that's just fine and dandy.

Well guess what? You're dead wrong.
 
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Besides making no sense your post makes no sense, Vixen.

Allowing a scientist to test to whatever he or she can offers no limitation with regard to norms and standards. What you have said, Vixen, is that if a scientist tests outside of protocol or standards it's fine....because the scientist just simply can. ...and if the scientist can, standards be damned, then that's just fine and dandy.

Well guess what? You're dead wrong.


Being dead wrong seems to happen quite a lot when an argument is underpinned by high levels of scientific illiteracy, intellectual dishonesty and blinkered bias. Just sayin' :)
 
Citation of where I've 'never provided a cite'.


Please don't bring up that old chestnut about 'So who's researched Stefanoni'?


As you have been told, Stefanoni is staff and not a research academic. She just follows guidelines in accordance with her job description and vow of allegiance to the police.

So we'll put you down as one who believes her allegiance was not to the truth.

Got it.
 
The Scientific (Forensic) Police teams from Rome.

Not Stefanoni. Thus your strawman about "international forensic DNA collection standards" is utterly irrelevant.

What standards are there for forensic laboratory operations? Any of them "international"?
 
For example, I never believed Rudy went in through the window, and my belief about that is as firm as ever.

The reason to believe he went in through the window is because it is the only sign of forced entry in the entire upstairs apartment, and he did the exact same thing two weeks prior a couple blocks away. There are no real alternatives.
 
Citation of where I've 'never provided a cite'.


Please don't bring up that old chestnut about 'So who's researched Stefanoni'?


As you have been told, Stefanoni is staff and not a research academic. She just follows guidelines in accordance with her job description and vow of allegiance to the police.

Apologies. You are correct - you have provided cites.

These are the ones I remember.

You posted a pic of the lower window, the one underneath Filomena'swhich you claimed showed no bars on it. Yet the picture clearly showed there were bars on the window.

Also, the whole reason we're talking about Novelli is because I asked you to provide ONE citation of a forensic-DNA expert who supported Stefanoni. You (without citation) named Prof Novelli who testified for the prosecution in Sept 2011 as the DNA evidence at trial was falling apart.

Novelli made some general claims about how an experienced lab-tech could on occasion ignore protocols and substitute experience to arrive at a right result. But nowhere did Novelli say that Stefanoni was, indeed, representative of this example.

And Prof Novelli's testimony, as reviewed by the subsequent Judge Nencini trial, only served to establish that Stefanoni had NOT followed protocols in relation to the need for multiple amplifications of small samples.

So I apologise. You did give a citation.

So I am amending the request made of you - give a citation of a forensic-DNA expert who agrees with Stefanoni's work, rather than tears it down.
 
On the failure of the prosecution and P. Stefanoni to produce the raw data of the DNA profile analysis:

What is the raw data and EDF’s?

They are the actual results produced in the lab as opposed to a modified/edited presentation of the real results. Raw data includes sample files, project files, injection lists, sample sheets and injection logs. A laboratory test such as a DNA genotype analysis is not simple. The electropherogram presented in court is actually an interpretation of the results of a multi-step process where the precision and validity of each of many steps determines the quality and usefulness of the end result. The EDF’s are the computer files generated by the instrument that analyzes the DNA produced in a genotype test (called STR PCR products, which are small pieces of DNA). Each DNA fragment has a size, a quantity, and a color; the raw data is these values, measured by the instrument, organized into a table. In practice, the data is next loaded into a software application (e.g. Gene-Scan™ and Genotyper™ (which must be used in tandem), Gene-Mapper®, PowerTyper™, and TrueAllele) where the lab technician manipulates and transforms the data to create an electropherogram. In this case, the prosecution has suppressed the vast majority of the actual laboratory data that was analysed. The refusal of the prosecution to produce it calls into the question the validity of every result from the lab. DNA for the Defense Bar 2012 authored by former attorney general Eric Holder covers standard practice for DNA disclosure in American courtrooms, none of which occurred in the Kercher murder case.

Such disclosure to the defense of the complete raw DNA data must be done in any Council of Europe state, including Italy, based upon ECHR case-law. To not turn over true copies the raw DNA data or other copies of original data, such as copies of actual phone intercepts, is a violation of Convention Article 6.1 (see, for example: Cevat Soysal v. Turkey 17362/03 23/09/2014).

June 29, 2011

C&V Report – Assessment of the Forensic Genetic Tests Conducted by the Scientific Police on Item 36 (Knife)

In the case in question, it is recalled that Exhibit 36 was placed for testing into a context where a considerable number of samples belonging to the victim had already been examined; therefore, it cannot be excluded that contamination by the aforementioned methods may have occurred – all the more so because the negative controls, which should have been amplified contextually and which could have given an indication as to the absence of contamination, were not produced

[….]

employment of negative controls in the amplification procedure to check for the presence of contamination. In the attached eletropherograms, neither negative nor positive controls are reported.

The raw data, including that for the negative and positive controls, are required in order for the defense to accurately assess the reliability of the DNA results. The results for the controls provide one measure of the potential that the alleged inculpatory result was the result of contamination.

Failure of the prosecution to provide the control results and other raw data suggests that there was some problem with the results that would have been revealed in that data, such as contamination or malpractice.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/
 
The reason to believe he went in through the window is because it is the only sign of forced entry in the entire upstairs apartment, and he did the exact same thing two weeks prior a couple blocks away. There are no real alternatives.

I disagree. Here's why.

1.) The burglaries do not have as much in common as people have come to believe. Of the six burglaries alleged against Guede, only two involve possible climbs, along with the breaking of windows: the one at the Brocchi/Palazzoli law firm, and the one at Via Della Pergola.

Two others (Christian Tramontano and Guede's neighbor, Maria Diaz) involved Guede gaining access through an open or unlocked lower window. It is not known how Guede gained access for the two burglaries at the Del Prato Nursery in Milan, but there was no broken glass and presumably no climbing (he was living it up on the first floor).

2.) There are some notable differences between the burglary at the Brocchi Law Offices and the one at the cottage. Access to the window (which was actually a door) at Brocchi's was much easier than access to Filomena's room. The door was located on a balcony, and metal grates below the balcony appear to make it a very easy climb: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/law_office_window.jpg

In the law office burglary, the burglar, presumably Rudy, carried the rock with him to the balcony, used it to break a window, and then left it on the balcony. Obviously at Via Della Pergola, the rock went flying through the glass into the room.

At the law offices, the burglar laid two men's business jackets on the floor to avoid stepping on broken glass. At Via Della Pergola, there is not much on the floor to prevent someone from stepping on glass, yet there is no crushed glass as if someone had walked on it. There are no footprints, little debris, and there is a plaid cloth bag standing directly in the path from the window to the bedroom door, which surely would have been kicked out of the way by someone stumbling through there in the dark. (Photos on Injustice In Perugia -- scroll about two-thirds of the way down this page: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html.)

3.) There has never been any definitive evidence of forced entry through the window. It would be impossible to climb a wall like the one outside Filomena's room and not get your feet and hands dirty and dusty. Yet there are no tracks or fingermarks; what little loose material or dust appears on the floor of the room could easily have come from the rock after it hit the floor and rolled into the bag, or from the broken pieces of window and window trim.

4.) There are two examples of people trying to show that it would be easy to climb into Filomena's window, but neither of them shows anyone actually doing it. One is a photo, and one is a video. The photo shows a guy with his feet on the window below and his hands on the ledge of Filomena's window, but it does not show him pulling himself up.

The video is edited at exactly the moment the climber (different guy from the photo) would have pulled himself up. It cuts from him starting to pull himself up, to the next scene, where he is sitting on the window sill. It does not show how much difficulty it may or may not have taken him to get to the windowsill. Why not?

5.) Filomena is a liar and a low-life who turned against Amanda. She said her room was tidy, but obviously, it was not. It does not look like a room that has been rummaged through -- it looks like the room of a young woman who leaves stuff on the floor.

6.) Rudy going in through the window does not survive the test of Occam's Razor. I think most people here would agree Rudy was a relatively unmotivated fellow -- that's why he started burglarizing in the first place, allegedly. He is an opportunist, not a go-getter.

Why go in a window when you can kick in a door with a faulty lock? Why go in a window without a balcony, when there is a window with a balcony just around the other side of the house, where no one can see you from the street? Why go in an upper window of a place you haven't been to, when you can go into a lower window of a place you're familiar with, and that you know has pot plants?

Why break in at all, when you are just out wandering around, and one of the occupants of the cottage happens to walk up at the same time and, distracted by trying to call her Mum, says, um, yeah, I guess you can use the bathroom?

7.) There is no basis whatsoever, other than Rudy's own account, for believing that he was sitting on the toilet when something happened -- in his version, Amanda and Raffaele came in, and in "our" version, Meredith came in. Again, with Occam's Razor -- if you just climbed in a window to commit a burglary and you're interrupted, why not just be quiet for awhile, and then jump back out the window? Maybe because you didn't come in through the window in the first place.
 
Why should anyone be concerned whether or not scientists or - most relevant for a criminal case - forensic science workers - present their raw data, and not merely their interpretations of that data? For example, an electropherogram (e-gram) showing the results of a DNA profile test is an interpretation of the raw data. Shouldn't such an interpretation, by a presumably reputable forensic worker or scientist, be reliable?

Well, of course, one consideration is that the forensic worker or scientist providing the interpretation to the prosecution is, at least in the AK - RS case, an employee of the police department and, according to Italian procedural law, answer to the prosecutor who directs the investigation of the crime. Thus, the forensic worker or scientist in this case, who refused to release the raw DNA data, is part of the prosecution team and not an objective, neutral, independent expert.

By suppressing the raw DNA data, information, including but not limited to: the extent of contamination, the fidelity of the test equipment in accurately measuring the presence of known amounts of DNA in positive controls and the absence of any DNA in negative controls, the presence of certain alleles other than those chosen for display in the e-gram, possible unethical double testing (that is, running a "spiked" inclupatory sample after the original sample was found to be exculpatory), and even the dates that tests were actually run, is hidden from the court and the defense.

One might believe that all scientists were persons of unimpeachable integrity who would never fabricate data or falsely interpret or represent real data. However, scientific misconduct does happen; for reports of some cases, see:

http://www.the-scientist.com/?artic...he-Scientist/tagNo/2642/tag/scientific-fraud/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_misconduct

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/23/opinion/whats-behind-big-science-frauds.html?_r=0

Here's a relevant quote from the NY Times article cited:

"The now-discredited paper on gay marriage — by Michael J. LaCour, a graduate student at U.C.L.A., and Donald P. Green, a political scientist at Columbia, who requested a retraction after his co-author failed to produce the raw data...."

The point is, of course, that the raw data and its integrity and validity is the key to any credible interpretation. Without honest and valid supporting raw data, the interpretation has no credibility and is inadmissible into the scientific literature.

Similarly, interpretations of forensic raw data, without an examination by the defense of that raw data to verify its integrity and validity, should not be considered admissible evidence. That is the point of the ECHR case-law in Cevat Soysal v. Turkey 17362/03 23/09/2014: using the police transcripts of phone intercepts as evidence to convict while not allowing the defense to listen to the original sound recordings of those intercepts results in an unfair trial - a violation of Convention Article 6.1 - which obligates the respondent state to remedy by considering a request for a retrial in which the Convention is strictly followed.

For a list of forensic science fraud (misconduct) cases, primarily from the US, see:

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/forensic_fraud.html

For a case where DNA evidence was misrepresented by the prosecution, and examination of the raw data showed contamination or differed from the prosecution allegations, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_lacrosse_case#DNA_tests
 
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I disagree. Here's why.

1.) The burglaries do not have as much in common as people have come to believe. Of the six burglaries alleged against Guede, only two involve possible climbs, along with the breaking of windows: the one at the Brocchi/Palazzoli law firm, and the one at Via Della Pergola.

Two others (Christian Tramontano and Guede's neighbor, Maria Diaz) involved Guede gaining access through an open or unlocked lower window. It is not known how Guede gained access for the two burglaries at the Del Prato Nursery in Milan, but there was no broken glass and presumably no climbing (he was living it up on the first floor).

2.) There are some notable differences between the burglary at the Brocchi Law Offices and the one at the cottage. Access to the window (which was actually a door) at Brocchi's was much easier than access to Filomena's room. The door was located on a balcony, and metal grates below the balcony appear to make it a very easy climb: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/law_office_window.jpg

In the law office burglary, the burglar, presumably Rudy, carried the rock with him to the balcony, used it to break a window, and then left it on the balcony. Obviously at Via Della Pergola, the rock went flying through the glass into the room.

At the law offices, the burglar laid two men's business jackets on the floor to avoid stepping on broken glass. At Via Della Pergola, there is not much on the floor to prevent someone from stepping on glass, yet there is no crushed glass as if someone had walked on it. There are no footprints, little debris, and there is a plaid cloth bag standing directly in the path from the window to the bedroom door, which surely would have been kicked out of the way by someone stumbling through there in the dark. (Photos on Injustice In Perugia -- scroll about two-thirds of the way down this page: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendry------2.html.)

3.) There has never been any definitive evidence of forced entry through the window. It would be impossible to climb a wall like the one outside Filomena's room and not get your feet and hands dirty and dusty. Yet there are no tracks or fingermarks; what little loose material or dust appears on the floor of the room could easily have come from the rock after it hit the floor and rolled into the bag, or from the broken pieces of window and window trim.

4.) There are two examples of people trying to show that it would be easy to climb into Filomena's window, but neither of them shows anyone actually doing it. One is a photo, and one is a video. The photo shows a guy with his feet on the window below and his hands on the ledge of Filomena's window, but it does not show him pulling himself up.

The video is edited at exactly the moment the climber (different guy from the photo) would have pulled himself up. It cuts from him starting to pull himself up, to the next scene, where he is sitting on the window sill. It does not show how much difficulty it may or may not have taken him to get to the windowsill. Why not?

5.) Filomena is a liar and a low-life who turned against Amanda. She said her room was tidy, but obviously, it was not. It does not look like a room that has been rummaged through -- it looks like the room of a young woman who leaves stuff on the floor.

6.) Rudy going in through the window does not survive the test of Occam's Razor. I think most people here would agree Rudy was a relatively unmotivated fellow -- that's why he started burglarizing in the first place, allegedly. He is an opportunist, not a go-getter.

Why go in a window when you can kick in a door with a faulty lock? Why go in a window without a balcony, when there is a window with a balcony just around the other side of the house, where no one can see you from the street? Why go in an upper window of a place you haven't been to, when you can go into a lower window of a place you're familiar with, and that you know has pot plants?

Why break in at all, when you are just out wandering around, and one of the occupants of the cottage happens to walk up at the same time and, distracted by trying to call her Mum, says, um, yeah, I guess you can use the bathroom?

7.) There is no basis whatsoever, other than Rudy's own account, for believing that he was sitting on the toilet when something happened -- in his version, Amanda and Raffaele came in, and in "our" version, Meredith came in. Again, with Occam's Razor -- if you just climbed in a window to commit a burglary and you're interrupted, why not just be quiet for awhile, and then jump back out the window? Maybe because you didn't come in through the window in the first place.

There are a lot of weird little things with this case. I previously got into a long discussion, mostly with Grinder, about the extended discrepancy between the likely time of attack (shortly after 21:00) and the likely-rudy phone activity (22:00+). I gave up trying to find a definitive explanation because there's too many stochastic variables to deal with.

I think a no window entry scenario is possible but I can't see it as being definitively the very best explanation. There's huge problems with other entries, the window actually being broken being a the major one. Why is it broken if not for entry?

My approach is pretty conservative:

1. The best explanation is the obvious and simple one, in lieu of a convincing reasonably corroborated alternative.

2. Past behavior predicts future behavior.

Using the above, Rudy made his second climb in two weeks up metal bars, and his 3rd verified of possibly many more break-ins by in this case going in through the broken window.

There are many other alternative explanations compatible with the same evidence, on a sliding scale of plausibility, any of them could be true. I don't feel compelled by anything to switch from the "default" position though.

If Rudy one day wants to give us a step by step guide on what happened I'm all ears, but otherwise we'll never really know for sure.
 
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