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For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

You're misrepresenting a number of aspects of this. Peer review is a reasonably 'rigorous test' for a journal paper, particularly a scientific paper, but would be less so for any book on 'New Testament or Early Christianity'. "peer review reports from major professors of New Testament or Early Christianity" still represents a degree of quality control, especially when compared to no such reports.

Depends of course on what those "professors" wrote.

That is a complete strawman. My issue is not that peer review might add to Carrier's credibility or the credibility of his ideas, but that you are using many misrepresentations to muddy the waters.

No, I'm just trying to make sure that readers don't think Carrier's claims of "peer review" carry the same weight as the formal peer review process as used in scientific journals. I'm trying to clarify the water, not muddy it.

You're highly disingenuous. You're seeking to make ad hominem attacks, despite whining when they are made against you because of the nonsense you smear these pages with.

Projection will get you nowhere...
 
Anyway, back to the topic:

I took a look at a Jewish opinion on "The Messiah" to see if there was anything there consistent with Carrier's ideas and found this:
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah

I can see the idea of a pre-existent heavenly Messiah who will at some future time arrive on earth to judge everyone, but I can't see the concept of him being crucified either in heaven, or on Earth.

Most of the references for "Messiah" on that page concern an Earthly descendant of David and or Joseph who would rise up as a great King and reestablish the temple and conquer the enemies of Israel etc.
lol: "a look at a Jewish opinion on 'The Messiah" is hardly comprehensive.

Perhaps you might read The Jewish Gospels: the Story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin (2012) in which Boyrain outlines how "the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts."
 
lol: "a look at a Jewish opinion on 'The Messiah" is hardly comprehensive.

Perhaps you might read The Jewish Gospels: the Story of the Jewish Christ by Daniel Boyarin (2012) in which Boyrain outlines how "the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts."

Who said I had to be comprehensive?

I'm not going to read a whole book on the subject. Could you summarise a few relevant points?
 
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I have addressed specific issues.
Perhaps you could address this -
"Euhemerus took celestial (ahistorical) gods (Zeus and Uranus) and then turned them into historical men ... anyone who does that is doing what Euhemerus did. They are therefore euhemerizing a god. Just as Euhemerus “euhemerized” Zeus and Uranus.'

"Euhemerus himself of course did not believe what he claimed. He pretended that that’s how the gods Zeus and Uranus began. He well knew that. Because he completely made up their history himself. Before that, they had no such history (they had always resided in faraway supernatural realms, e.g. above the clouds of Mount Olympus or deep in the caverns of Hades or faraway in outer space)."

"..we must not confuse the “-izer” with the audience. The euhemer-IZER is the one faking a story (obviously: the story isn’t real, and never existed before their creating of it, so they definitely know they are making it up). How people react to that euhemerization is an entirely different story.

'So maybe people have become confused because they turned the attitude of duped recipients of euhemerization into the euhemerizers. That makes no sense. Except insofar as you want to say Euhemerus wasn’t lying. But then that process would be called Deification, not Euhemerization. And it would mean Zeus and Uranus really did exist as historical men. And Euhemerus somehow knew this. And so on. We can tell from his storytelling and the preceding evidence that that is not what happened. Euhemerus was a ********ter. And many scholars like Plutarch knew he was a ********ter [see below].

"But his manner of ******** caught on. Lots of ********ters after Euhemerus did what he did. But to be fair, he didn’t really invent this kind of ********. He was just the most famous and identifiable culprit, and the one who made the trend popular again. So doing what he did came to be named after him. In actual fact what he did had been done before. Most famously Dionysus and Hercules, who began as shrine-celebrated skygods, but later were given historical backgrounds on earth. We see this already in Homer, even though we know from Mycenaean writings that Dionysus began as a worshipped skygod and not a man, and the clues in the astrotheology of Hercules cult and the variances of his worship across the West suggest the same of him (certainly none of the histories of him match archaeological evidence enough to be believed).

"Even sincerely attempting to explain a God by postulating a historical man as origin is still the same thing: making up a historical man. It’s just a more honest process. That I suppose could still be called euhemerization. Yet it’s still a non-existent man being inserted into history. Not a real man who was actually deified."

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/8161


'It has been asked, “Didn’t Plutarch discuss the theory of Euhemerus that all such tales are the mythification of past kings into current gods,” and therefore attest that “Euhemerus thought that earthly kings were the basis for mythical gods”? Not exactly. In On Isis and Osiris Plutarch surveys several competing theories as to who Isis and Osiris were or are, and in turn he describes each one and then rejects it, until he gets around to saying he supports the demonological theory (that they were never on earth but always celestial deities who began as lower ranking sky spirits later elevated to full godhood by their deeds).

'One of the theories Plutarch describes and rejects is what we call the euhemerization theory. So context is key here: he is explaining why euhemerization is not believable. His reason? Because anyone who tries to claim celestial gods were once deified historical persons is doing exactly what Euhemerus did: making a fake history out of a supernatural story. Plutarch is not saying that euhemerizers are correct. He is saying they aren’t. So insofar as he would call them euhemerizers, that would mean precisely what Plutarch is saying is wrong with people who try to spin earthly histories for sky gods: euhemerizing is always fiction.

'This is ironic, of course, because Plutarch himself gullibly accepts the euhemerization of Romulus and Hercules. He never realizes that he is doing for them what he condemns in On Isis and Osiris. Because he doesn’t know they were euhemerized (and never says they were; to do so would be to condemn their stories as fake). He thinks they were simply deified. This is because Plutarch didn’t euhemerize them. Someone else did. And Plutarch just gullibly believed them. He saw through what Euhemerus did. He saw through several enough other examples of other people doing what Euhemerus did. But he didn’t see through them all. Some of them successfully punked him.'
.
"The Gospels were simply constructed to euhemerize Jesus" (Carrier, 2014, On the Historicity of Jesus p. 613)

"Mark’s euhemerization would logically transfer Jesus’ demonic enemies to earthly ones, leading to the allegory of internecine betrayal in the Judas narrative (where the whole world conspires to kill him: Romans, Jews and ‘Christians’)." (Carrier, 2014, OHJ p. 560, n. 62)
 
Who said I had to be comprehensive?
lol. So ad hoc cherry-picking is ok for you?

I'm not going to read a whole book on the subject. Could summarise a few relevant points?
Boyarin makes points that align with vridar's"
The first appearance of a Son of Man figure in the heavens is that of a metaphor representing the death and resurrection of the (Maccabean) martyr-saints, whose blood we know from elsewhere was believed to have the power of atonement for the sins of Judeans. Even though the image is metaphorical, that same Son of Man figure did evolve in Second Temple thought into a real angelic-type of heavenly figure.

That is, a heavenly representation of human death and resurrection (tied with the power of atonement) became reified as a heavenly being in 2T Judaistic thought.

I suggest that process is not entirely without significance -- especially in the context of Martin Hengel's argument that the Danielic author was drawing upon an interpretation of the Suffering Servant in Isaiah when creating his metaphor.
In Daniel, vision of a son of man is of a human figure that represents the holy ones of the most high; or, the people of the holy ones of the most high–in context: the Maccabean martyrs.

Boyarin argues that a 'son of man' in Daniel 7 is “part of God” (p. 26), or a second God. A divine figure.
 
Perhaps you could address this -
...

"The Gospels were simply constructed to euhemerize Jesus" (Carrier, 2014, On the Historicity of Jesus p. 613)

"Mark’s euhemerization would logically transfer Jesus’ demonic enemies to earthly ones, leading to the allegory of internecine betrayal in the Judas narrative (where the whole world conspires to kill him: Romans, Jews and ‘Christians’)." (Carrier, 2014, OHJ p. 560, n. 62)

OK: The gospels were not simply created to euhemerize Jesus. They were created to convey religious teachings in a manner that their audience could understand. To call them simply an attempt to bring Paul's spaceman Christ down to earth, ignores the theological content of the stories and the origin of the teachings themselves.

I read that Jewish encyclopedia entry on the Messiah and I couldn't find any reference to demons trying to kill the messiah up in heaven. What I saw was lots of references to the messiah killing demons and kings etc at the end of days.
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah
 
I took a look at a Jewish 'opinion' on "The Messiah" - http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah - to see if there was anything there consistent with Carrier's ideas...
That encyclopedic article could hardly be called an opinion.

Interestingly, it starts -
MESSIAH (Hebr., "Ha-Mashiaḥ"; Aramaic, "Meshiḥa" = "anointed one"):

The Name. The name or title of the ideal king of the Messianic age; used also without the article as a proper name—"Mashiaḥ" (in the Babylonian Talmud and in the midrash literature), like Χριστός in the Gospels. http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah
Note that 'Χριστός in the Gospels' = Christ.

It continues with more reference to the NT:
The Grecized Μεσσιας of the New Testament (John i. 41, iv. 25) is a transliteration of the Aramaic form, Aramaic being the spoken language of Palestine in the time of Jesus. "The Messiah" (with the article and not in apposition with another word) is, however, not an Old Testament expression, but occurs for the first time in apocalyptic literature. Similarly, in all probability the use of the word "Mashiaḥ" to denote the Messianic king is not found earlier than the apocalyptic literature. In the Old Testament the earliest use of the word is with Yhwh (or with a pronominal suffix referring to Yhwh) as a title of the ruling sovereign Meshiaḥ Yhwh ("God's anointed one"; I Sam. ii. 10, 35; xii. 3, 5; xvi. 6; xxvi. 9, 11, 16, 23; II Sam. i. 14, 16; xix. 21; II Chron. vi. 42; Ps. xviii. 51 [A. V. 50]; xx. 7 [A. V. 6]; cxxxii. 17 [applying to David]; Lam. iv. 20). In post-exilic times, the high priest, filling the place formerly occupied by the king, is spoken of as "ha-Kohen ha-Mashiaḥ" (the anointed priest; Lev. iv. 3, 5, 16; vi. 5), also (Dan. ix. 25, 26) as "Mashiaḥ Nagid" (an anointed one, a ruler) and simply "Mashiaḥ" (an anointed one), referring to Onias III. As the anointing of the high priest consecrated him above all his brethren to God's service and gave him immediate access to God (comp. Lev. viii. 12, xxi. 10-12; Zech. iii. 7), so the anointing of the king made him Meshiaḥ Yhwh, placed him in a special relationship to God, and established him as the one chosen by God to represent His rulership in Israel and to bear witness to His glory before the nations (comp. II Sam. vii. 8-11, 14; Isa. lv. 4; Ps. lxxxix. 4, 21-29).
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah
 
lol. So ad hoc cherry-picking is ok for you?


Boyarin makes points that align with vridar's"

In Daniel, vision of a son of man is of a human figure that represents the holy ones of the most high; or, the people of the holy ones of the most high–in context: the Maccabean martyrs.

Boyarin argues that a 'son of man' in Daniel 7 is “part of God” (p. 26), or a second God. A divine figure.

Yeah? So what?

I can see lots of examples where the messiah is believed to be a descendant of King David who will reestablish the temple and destroy the enemies of Israel:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/guerradioses/guerradioses02a.htm
War Scroll said:
...Jus[t as You told
(6) us in time past, saying: "There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, a scepter shal1 rise out of Israel, and shall crush the forehead of Moab and tear down all sons of Sheth,
(7) and he shall descend of Jacob and shall destroy the remnant from the city, and the enemy shall be a possession, and Israel shall do valiantly (Num. 24:17-19). By the hand of Your anointed ones,
(8) seers of things appointed, You have told us about the ti[mes] of the wars of Your hands in order that You may glorify Yourself {fight} among our enemies, to bring down the hordes of Belial, the seven
(9) vainglorious nations, at the hand of the oppressed whom You have redeemed [with powe]r and retribution; a wondrous strength. A heart that melts shall be as a door of hope. You will do to them as You did to Pharaoh
(10) and the officers of his chariots in the Red Sea. You will ignite the humble of spirit like a fiery torch of fire in a sheaf, consuming the wicked. You shall not turn back until
(11) the annihilation of the guilty. In time past You foretold [the app]ointed time for Your handis powerful work against the Kittim, saying: And Assyria shall fall by a sword not of man, and a sword,
(12) not of men, shall consume him (Isa. 31: 8).
(13) For into the hand of the oppressed You will deliver the [ene]mies of all the lands; into the hands of those who are prostrate in the dust, in order to bring down all mighty men of the peoples, to return the recompense
(14) of the wicked on the head of [...], to pronounce the just judgment of Your truth on all sons of man, and to make for Yourself an everlasting name among the people. ...

And:
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah
...For the better understanding of the Messianic pictures in apocalyptic literature it is important to point out that, although frequently interlaced, two distinct sets of ideas may be traced—the one set concerned with this world, hence realistic and national; the other directed to the world to come, hence transcendent and universalistic. The Messiah presents a correspondingly double character. Side by side with the traditional idea of an earthly king of the house of David is the new conception of a heavenly preexistent Messiah, from which it follows that in regard to the question of the Messiah the older apocalyptic literature, as well as the younger rabbinical branch, falls naturally into two groups...

In the older apocalyptic literature the first book to be mentioned in which the Messiah figures as an earthly king is "The Vision of the Seventy Shepherds of the Book of Enoch" (ch. lxxxv.-xc.) of the time of John Hyrcanus (135-105 B.C.). The Messiah appears under the figure of a white bull at the conclusion of the world-drama (xc. 37 et seq.) and commands the respect and fear of all the heathen, who eventually become converted to God. Yet he does not take any actual rôle. It is God Himself who wards off the last attack of the heathen against Israel, gives judgment, and establishes the world-dominion of Israel. Second in this group come those parts of the Sibylline Books whose date, as Geffken's recent critical analysis has established ("Komposition und Entstehungszeit der Oracula Sibyllina," pp. 7-13), is about the year 83 B.C. The Messiah is pictured (verses 652-666) as a king sent by God from the rising of the sun, who will put an end to war all over the earth, inasmuch as he will destroy some peoples and make permanent treaties with the others; in all his actions he will be solicitous not to follow his own counsel, but to obey the commands of God. ...

I'm not sure where Vrider is getting his information from...
 
OK: The gospels were not simply created to euhemerize Jesus. They were created to convey religious teachings in a manner that their audience could understand. To call them simply an attempt to bring Paul's spaceman Christ down to earth, ignores the theological content of the stories and the origin of the teachings themselves.
Perhaps "the theological content of the stories and the origin of the teachings" was "simply an attempt to bring Paul's spaceman Christ down to earth" to "euhemerize [Christ as] Jesus" ??

Note from your Jewish Encylopedia reference - http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah -
Earthly Preexistence.
The conception met with in the rabbinical literature of an earthly preexistence of the Messiah must be distinguished from that of his heavenly preexistence. It occurs in various forms, representing, probably, different stages of development. First, he is expected to lead a hidden life and then to step forth suddenly. (On this conception of the sudden, unexpected appearance of the Messiah comp. Matt. xxiv. 27, 43-44, where it is said that the Messiah will come like a thief in the night or like a flash of lightning.)
 
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That encyclopedic article could hardly be called an opinion.

Interestingly, it starts -

Note that 'Χριστός in the Gospels' = Christ.

It continues with more reference to the NT:

I don't think the Jewish Encyclopedia could realistically be called a Christian Apologetic work.
 
Depends of course on what those "professors" wrote.

No, I'm just trying to make sure that readers don't think Carrier's claims of "peer review" carry the same weight as the formal peer review process as used in scientific journals. I'm trying to clarify the water, not muddy it.
It seems you're seeking to do the opposite. You seems to be side-tracking.

Why don't you address specific issues?

Projection will get you nowhere...
lol. Tu quoque.
 
.
"The Gospels were simply constructed to euhemerize Jesus" (Carrier, 2014, On the Historicity of Jesus p. 613)

"Mark’s euhemerization would logically transfer Jesus’ demonic enemies to earthly ones, leading to the allegory of internecine betrayal in the Judas narrative (where the whole world conspires to kill him: Romans, Jews and ‘Christians’)." (Carrier, 2014, OHJ p. 560, n. 62)

In gMark it is not the whole world which conspire to kill Jesus, the water walking transfigurer.

gMark is very specific.

Mark 8
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.




Mark 14
53 And they led Jesus away to the high priest: and with him were assembled all the chief priests and the elders and the scribes.

54 And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.

55 And the chief priests and all the council sought for witness against Jesus to put him to death; and found none.

56 For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.

57 And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying,

58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

59 But neither so did their witness agree together.

60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

It was the Jews that condemned Jesus to be guilty of death--not the Romans, not the Egyptians, not the Greeks--not the whole world---the Jews.


http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chrysostom_adversus_judaeos_01_homily1.htm

Against the Jews
(5) Tell me this. If a man were to have slain your son, would you endure to look upon him, or accept his greeting?

Would you not shun him as a wicked demon, as the devil himself? They slew the Son of your Lord; do you have the boldness to enter with them under the same roof?

After he was slain he heaped such honor upon you that he made you his brother and coheir. But you dishonor him so much that you pay honor to those who slew him on the cross, that you observe with them the fellowship of the festivals, that you go to their profane places, enter their unclean doors, and share in the tables of demons.

For I am persuaded to call the fasting of the Jews a table of demons because they slew God.


It is clear that Christian writings of antiquity do claim that it was the Jews who killed Jesus--God of God.
 
At the end of days, such as the destruction of the Temple?

No the end of days as in the OT notion of the "End of Days". Just like those people near the dead sea believed:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/DeadSeaScrolls/1QpHab_pesher_habakkuk.html
...this saying is to be interpreted [as concerning those who] will be unfaithful at the end of days. They, the men of violence and the breakers of the Covenant, will not believe when they hear all that [is to happen to] the final generation from the Priest [in whose heart] God set [understanding] that he might interpret all the words of his servants the prophets, through whom
he foretold all that would happen to his people and [his land]
...

"I will take my stand to watch and will station myself upon my fortress. I will watch to see what he will say to me and how [he will answer] my complaint. And YHWH answered [and said to me, 'write down the vision and make it plain] upon the tablets, that [he who reads] may read it speedily'" [Hab 2.1-2].

and God told Habakkuk to write down that which would happen to the final generation, but He did not make known to him when time would come to an end.

And as for that which He said, "that he who reads may read it speedily"

Interpreted this concerns the Teacher of Righteousness, to whom God made known all the mysteries of the words of His servants the prophets.

"For there shall be yet another vision concerning the appointed time. It shall tell of the end and shall not lie [Hab 2.3a].

Interpreted, this means that the final age shall be prolonged, and shall exceed all that the prophets have said; for the mysteries of God are astounding.

"If it tarries, wait for it, for it shall surely come and shall not be late" [Hab 2.3b].

Interpreted, this concerns the men of truth who keep the Law, whose hands shall not slacken in the service of truth when the final age is prolonged. For all the ages of God reach their appointed end as he determines for them in the mysteries of His wisdom.

["But the righteous shall live by his faith"] [[Hab 2.4b]].

Interpreted, this concerns all those who observe the Law in the House of Judah, whom God will deliver from the House of Judgement because of their suffering and because of their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness...

And as for that which He said, "because you have plundered many nations, all the remnant of the peoples shall plunder you":

Interpreted this concerns the last Priests of Jerusalem, who shall amass money and wealth by plundering the peoples. But in the last days, their riches and booty shall be delivered into the hands of the army of the Kittim, For it is they who shall be "the remnant of the peoples."

And:
http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/cd.htm
And these men 'dug the well'-that well whereof it is written, 'Princes digged it, nobles of the people delved it, with the aid of a mehoqeq' [Num. 21.18]. The 'well' in question is the Law. They that 'digged' are those of Israel who repented and departed from the land of Judah to sojourn in the land of Damascus'. * God called them all 'princes' because they went in search of Him, and their glory was never gainsaid (?) by any man's mouth.22 The term mehoqeq [which can mean 'lawgiver' as well as 'stave') refers to the man who expounds the Law. Isaiah has employed an analogous piece of imagery when in allusion to the Law he has spoken of God's 'producing a tool for His work' [cf. ISL 54.16). As for the 'nobles of the people', these are the men that come, throughout the Era of Wickedness, to delve the well, using as their staves [Heb. mehoqeq) the statutes [Heb. huq4m) which the Law-giver prescribed [Heb. haqaq ha-mehoqeq) for them to walk in. Without such 'implements', they would, indeed, never achieve their goal until such time as the true Expositor arises at the end of days.

etc... Unless you want to argue that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written some time after the destruction of the Temple...
 
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lol. You again can't address the point.

What was your point? You quote the Jewish Encyclopedia and note that "Anointed" = "Christ" as if it was a new piece of information. I thought you were saying that the Jewish Encyclopedia had some kind of Christian agenda.

What were you saying with that post?

It seems you're seeking to do the opposite. You seems to be side-tracking.

Why don't you address specific issues?


lol. Tu quoque.

I have been addressing specific issues all along. You keep ignoring my points and post the same things over and over.

We've already left Carrier and his "peer review" far behind.
 
You quote the Jewish Encyclopedia and note that "Anointed" = "Christ" as if it was a new piece of information. I thought you were saying that the Jewish Encyclopedia had some kind of Christian agenda.

What were you saying with that post?
Beside the reference to Christ, the passage I quoted referred to
"The Messiah" ... occurs for the first time in apocalyptic literature. Similarly, in all probability the use of the word "Mashiaḥ" to denote the Messianic king is not found earlier than the apocalyptic literature. http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10729-messiah
The apocalyptic literature "stems from the years 200 b.c.[to] a.d. 100, containing visions or revelations* from God concerning the imminent coming of the end of the present evil age and the final advent of God’s kingdom." via https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Apocalyptic-Literature

* hence the term “apocalyptic,” from the Gr. apokalypsis, meaning “a revelation” or “a disclosure”.​

This shows a near-past lead-up to the development and presentation of what became the Christian Messiah -i.e. 200 b.c.e to the end of the 1st century a.d.
 
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