Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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And I said those very same things at my mothers corpse. Who identified the body? "Yeah, I did it", "I cannot lie, I was there", All true.

Somehow, Vixen purloins that into "so you admit murdering your mother". complete and utter bollocks.

You'll have to excuse Vixen. She has literally no idea how to think. Which is why she simply repeats the arguments she hears from posters at TJMK and PMF, and counts tabloids as "primary sources".

Unfortunately for her tabloids are tabloids and TJMK and PMF are filled with idiots that have zero experience in any field relevant to this case, and she has been co-opted (unwittingly) into the pro-guilt PR initiative. So rather than having actual discussion about the aftermath of the case here, we have to argue with a raving loon who is hell bent on trying to ruin the life (lives, if you count Raffaele; who let's be honest they don't really care about, other than that he is associated with Amanda) of someone who has been proven innocent by forensic science and exonerated by the Italian Supreme Court.
 
Some interesting parallels:

Brendan Dassey to Mom, Barbara Tadych: 'Yeah, I did it.'

Amanda Knox to Mom, Edda Mellas, 'I cannot lie. I was there.'

Thomas Mair, defendant in the murder of Jo Cox, MP, declines to take the stand to defend himself.

Raffaele Sollecito, defendant int he murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, declined to take the stand to defend himself.
Bill Gambini: "I shot the clerk"

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 
Vixen said:
Raffaele Sollecito, defendant exonerated for the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, declined to take the stand to defend himself.

Bill Gambini: "I shot the clerk"

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Vixen has been accused of many things in this very thread. Most of them she has refused to address. She simply was silent about them.

So she must be guilty of them all!!!
 
You'll have to excuse Vixen. She has literally no idea how to think. Which is why she simply repeats the arguments she hears from posters at TJMK and PMF, and counts tabloids as "primary sources".

Unfortunately for her tabloids are tabloids and TJMK and PMF are filled with idiots that have zero experience in any field relevant to this case, and she has been co-opted (unwittingly) into the pro-guilt PR initiative. So rather than having actual discussion about the aftermath of the case here, we have to argue with a raving loon who is hell bent on trying to ruin the life (lives, if you count Raffaele; who let's be honest they don't really care about, other than that he is associated with Amanda) of someone who has been proven innocent by forensic science and exonerated by the Italian Supreme Court.

Yeah, not that long ago, I happened upon this new term, "TJMK" What's that I thought.

So I googled it to find out what it was and I ended up saying "What's that?".

Seriously, Kim Kardashian's nose hair is more popular than this load of old bollocks.
 
Some defendants who decline to testify in court are factually guilty.
Some defendants who decline to testify in court are factually innocent.
Most defence lawyers will (in the absence of extremely compelling reasons otherwise) advise their clients not to testify in court.

To suggest or imply that there's any sort of causal relationship between a) not testifying in one's own defence in court and b) being factually guilty of the crime for which one is on trial, is worse than reductive: it's fatuously incorrect and a dishonest attempt to mislead. Disgraceful, dishonest and ignorant. Quite some combination.

(And of course the wilful misinterpretation of Knox's "I was there" bugged conversation isn't even worth discussing, it's such a contemptible and blatantly-obvious piece of (non)intellectual sleight-of-hand.......)
 
Some interesting parallels:

Brendan Dassey to Mom, Barbara Tadych: 'Yeah, I did it.'Amanda Knox to Mom, Edda Mellas, 'I cannot lie. I was there.'

Thomas Mair, defendant in the murder of Jo Cox, MP, declines to take the stand to defend himself.

Raffaele Sollecito, defendant int he murder and rape of Meredith Kercher, declined to take the stand to defend himself.

From the transcript of the conversation between Dassey and his mother:

"M. Why didn't you come to me, because then he would have been gone then and this wouldn't have happened.
B. Ya
M. Yes, and you would still be here with me.
B. Yes, Well you now know I did it.
M. Huh
B. You know he always touched us and that.
M. I didn't think there. He used to horse around with you guys.
B. Ya, but you remember he would always do stuff to Brian and that."

It is not clear what "it" refers to. He could have been referring to having had (unwanted) sexual contact with Avery which is what the conversation was about. He never told his mother that he had participated in the murder. In fact, what he does tell her is that he helped clean up some reddish-black "stuff" in the garage but no mention is made of a body even being there at the time:

"Brendan: Yeah. So if I was in the garage cleaning up that stuff on the floor, how much time will I get though for that?
Mum: What was it?"


Brendan: I don't know. It was this reddish-black stuff.
 
It's interesting you should say that. My use of the terms 'Amanda', 'Raff', 'the kids' and 'Mez' is a parody of the very terms used by the PIP when I joined the forum. So, we see a spectacularly repugnant fireworks display of hypocrisy in the PIP's complaining about my using their own terms. It's interesting they have no problem about two degenerate murderers and rapists being spoken about in terms of endearment.
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0



As for your personal attack, may I suggest you venture outside of your own country now and again. That is the best cure for xenophobia. Perhaps you believe the |Italians are backward and out to get the little darlings.

I am surprised that your use of the name Meredith's family and friends would call her was being parodic, in your view. I didn't think it was a pleasant or fair tactic to try and imply that being on Meredith's side in this unhappy saga was the same thing as having the opinion that A and R were guilty. But neither do I think that using Meredith's personal name as a parody is particularly respectful to her either. I also thought you were just plagiarising another poster when you referred to A and R as kids, though I understand the point you make here. I don't think anyone cares about your other terms; it's just "Mez" which seems wrong for the reasons alluded above.

Also anyone would "have a problem" about two degenerate murderers and rapists; but a) you are currently, and for some time, the only poster on this forum to believe, or pretend to believe this, and b) A and R were found not guilty, a judgement most posters came to having looked at the evidence, or in my case, the presentation of the evidence.
 
It's interesting you should say that. My use of the terms 'Amanda', 'Raff', 'the kids' and 'Mez' is a parody of the very terms used by the PIP when I joined the forum. So, we see a spectacularly repugnant fireworks display of hypocrisy in the PIP's complaining about my using their own terms. It's interesting they have no problem about two degenerate murderers and rapists being spoken about in terms of endearment.
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0



As for your personal attack, may I suggest you venture outside of your own country now and again. That is the best cure for xenophobia. Perhaps you believe the |Italians are backward and out to get the little darlings.

This is weirder and more disgusting that I'd thought. You really are using that term of endearment as a parody!? All for Meredith......
 
An ECHR judgment of interest, relating to a violation of Convention Article 6 because of the non-disclosure of information by the police and prosecutor in a trial:

Cevat Soysal v. Turkey 17362/03 23/09/2014

The ECHR found a violation of the Convention right to a fair trial because of a failure to maintain equality of arms. The prosecution and court did not allow the defense to access the original tapes of phone intercepts to allow the comparison to transcripts presented at trial which resulted in a conviction based in part on the transcripts.

There is relevance here to the failure of the police and prosecution to disclose the raw DNA profile data and other original data (for example, the putative semen stain on the pillow) in the Knox - Sollecito case. Of course, the Knox - Sollecito case resulted in a final definitive acquittal, so the significance to the ECHR may differ due to the acquittal. However, had they been finally convicted rather than finally acquitted, it is clear that the denial by the Italian courts to ensure a review of the original raw DNA data would have led to the ECHR finding a violation of Convention Article 6.1, and Italy would have been required to consider a retrial with disclosure of the raw DNA data. Because of the apparent malpractice in the DNA lab, this would no doubt have been a great embarrassment for the Italian authorities.

.... an examination of the question as to whether the transcripts included in the case file by the public prosecutor and those prepared by Mr L.B., the expert, were consistent with the content of the audiotapes was not carried out (see paragraphs 31, 32, 33 and 39 above). Besides, the applicant was not provided an opportunity to get of hold of all the elements that would have enabled him to challenge the reliability of the transcripts. In this connection, the Court observes that the first-instance court either dismissed the applicant’s requests to obtain a copy of the audiotapes without providing any reason (see paragraphs 14, 23, 26, 27, 29 and 32 above) or failed to issue a ruling in respect of them (see paragraphs 28, 35, 39 and 45 above). In addition, the court did not play the audiotapes at the hearings in the presence of the applicant or his lawyer. As a result, the applicant’s inability to have access to the originals of those audiotapes prevented him from effectively challenging the reliability of the transcripts. Moreover, as the applicant was not informed of the reason why the court considered it necessary to restrict his rights, he had no opportunity to argue against any such considerations. Lastly, the Court notes that the Court of Cassation also failed to consider the applicant’s arguments concerning his inability to have access to evidence which had been used to secure his conviction.

68. In the light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that the decision‑making procedure applied in the present case failed to comply with the requirements of adversarial proceedings and equality of arms, or to incorporate adequate safeguards to protect the interests of the applicant.

There has accordingly been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.
 
It's interesting you should say that. My use of the terms 'Amanda', 'Raff', 'the kids' and 'Mez' is a parody of the very terms used by the PIP when I joined the forum. So, we see a spectacularly repugnant fireworks display of hypocrisy in the PIP's complaining about my using their own terms. It's interesting they have no problem about two degenerate murderers and rapists being spoken about in terms of endearment.
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0



As for your personal attack, may I suggest you venture outside of your own country now and again. That is the best cure for xenophobia. Perhaps you believe the |Italians are backward and out to get the little darlings.

"Amanda" and "Raff" are not "terms". They are their names. "Raff" is a common abbreviation like Steve or Mike or Rob. Trying to use this as a justification for constantly referring to Meredith as "Mez" is preposterous.
 
Here's another relevant ECHR case involving an incriminating statement given without and later with a lawyer. The fact that the incriminating statement was given before the suspect provided with a lawyer, and with no evidence that the authorities had obtained a valid waiver of the right to a lawyer, and that the incriminating statement was used as a basis of conviction, motivated the ECHR to judge that there was a violation of Convention Article 6.1 with 6.1c.

CHOPENKO v. UKRAINE 17735/06 15/01/2015

49. The Court notes that, although not absolute, the right of everyone charged with a criminal offence to be effectively defended by a lawyer, assigned officially if need be, is one of the fundamental features of a fair trial (see Krombach v. France, no. 29731/96, § 89, ECHR 2001‑II). As a rule, access to a lawyer should be provided from the first questioning of a suspect by the police, unless it can be demonstrated in the light of the particular circumstances of each case that there were compelling reasons to restrict this right (see Salduz v. Turkey [GC], cited above, § 55). The right to defence will in principle be irretrievably prejudiced when incriminating statements made during police questioning without access to a lawyer are used for a conviction (ibid.).

50. Turning to the facts of the present case, the Court notes that the applicant’s first formal questioning as a suspect in the murder of O.K. took place in the evening of 28 June 2005, in the presence of the lawyer M. However, it is clear from the applicant’s submissions, and was not rebutted by the Government, that the day before that questioning he had already been placed in unrecorded police custody and questioned concerning his involvement in the murder in issue. As can be seen from the case file, on 27 June 2005 he signed a statement at the police station attesting to his involvement in the crime against O.K. In addition, on 28 June 2005 the applicant was questioned by the investigator at the prosecutor’s office, who recorded his detailed self-incriminating submissions as “explanations”. The timing of this questioning is unclear. However, absent any clarifications from the Government, the Court accepts the applicant’s version, according to which the questioning preceded his formal arrest on that date.

51. It follows that by virtue of the above-mentioned principles as enshrined in the Court’s case-law, the applicant was entitled to have access to a lawyer during his questioning on 27 and 28 June 2005. However, at that time he was questioned without a lawyer and there is no record indicating that before the questioning sessions in issue he was notified of his right to obtain legal assistance. On the facts of the case, the Court does not find any compelling reason justifying such a restriction of the applicant’s right of access to a lawyer. It follows that this right was not respected during the period in issue.

52.In so far as the applicant alleges that his confession statements should have been excluded from the body of evidence, the Court notes that the applicant repeatedly gave confession statements in presence of two lawyers and did not retract them until the third lawyer was admitted in the proceedings. There is also no proof that the initial confessions given by the applicant without a lawyer were extracted by ill-treatment or under the threat thereof. On the other hand, the Court notes that at the time when the applicant volunteered his original confessions, he might not have been fully aware of their significance, as the initial charges against him concerned non-aggravated murder only. Once they were reclassified as aggravated murder, rape and robbery he chose, possibly on the advice of his lawyer, to remain silent and subsequently retracted his confessions. What is even more important is that the original confessions which, as noted above, were obtained in breach of the applicant’s right to legal assistance, formed part of the case file. Thus, they affected the investigation strategy and set the framework within which the applicant’s further defence had to be mounted. It follows that regardless of whether the applicant chose to retract or maintain these confessions, the initial breach of his right to defence could not be remedied by the mere fact that he was subsequently provided with legal assistance. It necessitated further remedial action on behalf of the authorities involved.

53. Nevertheless, the domestic courts relied on the applicant’s confessions as the main basis for his conviction and failed to act upon his complaints about a breach of his right to defend himself. It is true that the confession statements were not the sole basis for the applicant’s conviction. However, absent any court ruling as to the role of the initial submissions obtained from the applicant in breach of his right to legal assistance and included in the case file, this breach was not remedied in the judicial proceedings.

54. The above considerations are sufficient for the Court to conclude that there has been a violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (c) of the Convention on account of the restriction of the applicant’s right of access to a lawyer during his initial questionings and the use of his self-incriminating statements as a basis for his conviction.
 
It's interesting you should say that. My use of the terms 'Amanda', 'Raff', 'the kids' and 'Mez' is a parody of the very terms used by the PIP when I joined the forum. So, we see a spectacularly repugnant fireworks display of hypocrisy in the PIP's complaining about my using their own terms. It's interesting they have no problem about two degenerate murderers and rapists being spoken about in terms of endearment.<snip>

To anyone who refers to Meredith Kercher as "Mez," I would say it is inappropriate to refer to her in that way unless you actually called her that when she was still alive. To call her that without having known her is to proprietize and thus dehumanize her. She did not give anyone other than her family and friends permission to relate to her in that way, particularly not those who "knew" her only after her death.

It has always been one of the most glaringly telling marks of psychological disturbance among the PGP that, without having known Meredith, they are loyal to her, put up pictures of her, write fantasies, poems, and music to her. In other words, she is an icon and an idol to them. They claim to be acting in love on her behalf, but in reality, they love only what is emblematic about her to each of them personally, not who she really was, because she can never be a real person to them.
 
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To anyone who refers to Meredith Kercher as "Mez," I would say it is inappropriate to refer to her in that way unless you actually called her that when she was still alive. To call her that without having known her is to proprietize and thus dehumanize her. She did not give anyone other than her family and friends permission to relate to her in that way, particularly not those who "knew" her only after her death.

It has always been one of the most glaringly telling marks of psychological disturbance among the PGP that, without having known Meredith, they are loyal to her, put up pictures of her, write fantasies, poems, and music to her. In other words, she is an icon and an idol to them. They claim to be acting in love on her behalf, but in reality, they love only what is emblematic about her to each of them personally, not who she really was, because she can never be a real person to them.

It is undeniable that some on the fading PGP-camp have found it necessary to give this whole debacle some additional emotive-oomph to make up for a lack of what LondonJohn calls critical thinking.

Some tend also to do it in the other direction - the disgusting photoshopping campaign against Amanda, her family and supporters is proof. Then there is the ad hominem thrown at supporters - "your little angelic Amanda", etc.

I was first exposed to this back on Sharon Feinstein's blog way back when. Feinstein had managed to get exclusive access to one of the Capenne prison inmates who'd had nothing good to say about Amanda. But in the comment's section sometime dressed me down using all those, "your little darling" insults. At this end it was mostly, WTF where'd THAT come from?

Truly, many over the years have had as their sole contribution that they were filling in the corner's of the original sex'ed-up narrative. That part alone is worth some sociological study of how things on the internet get out of hand so quickly.
 
I see Raffaele has written a book

"A step out of the night - All that you never imagined [about] me"

This would be an interesting read if translated. He must surely have some true inside information by now about the acquittal process.
 
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