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For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

But they really existed as men prior to their apotheosis. Imagine this scenario. Suppose we read of a Roman God Elagabalus. But we can't find out where this God came from. Someone says, the idea of this god derives from a misunderstanding of passages in the Sybilline Books, which were later conceived of as referring to a real person (who in this scenario never existed).

But along comes a follower of Euhemerus and says, I believe that this God originated as a person Sextus Varius Avitus Bassianus, who became emperor and identified himself as the God El Gabal. So if this god is ever credited with vouchsafing the whoopee cushion unto the human race (as in fact he has not been: just a hypothetical example), the Euhemerist might state that in reality the device was introduced by the Emperor known by that name (as indeed it was).

In this hypothetical case an Euhemerist theory of origin would have been factually correct.

Actually, technically the euhemerist theory would have been VERY incorrect. Elagabalus named himself after the god, not the other way around, and he had been a priest of Elagabalus long before being an Emperor.

The Syrian god was actually called "Ilāh hag-Gabal", meaning "god of the mountain", not just El Gabal. Elagabalus is pretty much just how Ilāh hag-Gabal sounds in latin, plus the masculine "us" at the end. It's just one of a couple of transliterations of that name into Latin that were floating around at the time, basically.

But anyway, it just illustrates the problem with just trusting in Euhemerus so to speak. A lot of such figures you might mistakenly identify, are actually NOT the origin of the god, and in fact some come MUCH later than the god.

That goes not just for Elagabalus, but also for example for John Frum: yes, you can find a native who claimed he is John Frum, but he comes much later than the cult of John Frum. So he really can't be the one.

And that's the problem with finding historical figures based on just faith and wishful thinking in their existence.
 
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The problem is what this thread is supposed to be about. The existence of a historical Jesus. If you're saying there is no conceptual difference between the existence or non existence of a historical Jesus, because there's no difference between a person and a God, good and well.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that one could jolly well imagine a historical person, even if that person happens to have a divine dad (or two dads for the dude from Tyana) and more powers than the combined cast of any X-Men movie. At least some thought Apollonius was a real historical person, even if he had more powers than some actual gods in other cultures, and more dads than normal at that.

And I'm saying I see no problem with Xians imagining Jesus as a real dude on Earth, even if that dude happened to be able to walk on water, raise the dead, heal congenital blindness, turn water into wine, etc. In fact it's STILL what most Christians believe, isn't it?

But that's a minority view.

I think about 2 billion christians would beg to differ about its being a minority view :p
 
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And I'm saying I see no problem with Xians imagining Jesus as a real dude on Earth, even if that dude happened to be able to walk on water, raise the dead, heal congenital blindness, turn water into wine, etc. In fact it's STILL what most Christians believe, isn't it?

I think about 2 billion christians would beg to differ about its being a minority view (that there's no difference between a person and a God.)
I think this declaration from Theopedia represents the traditional Christian view.
The transcendence of God is closely related to his sovereignty. It means that God is above, other than, and distinct from all he has made - he transcends it all. Paul says that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:6). Scripture says elsewhere, "For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods (Psalms 97:9; cf. 108:5).
To affirm God's transcendence and deny his immanence is to arrive at deism. To deny his transcendence and affirm his immanence is to arrive at pantheism.​
The hucksterist announcement that "you are gods" is more likely to be found in teachings like this. Of course under the traditional Christian definition the nature of Christ is incoherent. It is proposed as a mystery, but in my view it is simple nonsense.
 
I think I see what you are saying: "Euhemerism" is the idea that the gods were in fact actual men, whereas for Carrier's usage the euhemerizers weren't even looking to find the "actual men" behind the stories. It's a fair point. I'm not sure how relevant the motive behind the process is, though. For me the sticking point is that euhemerism was about rationalizing the myths of the gods as being about ordinary men (which is what Euhemerus was accused of doing, for which he was accused of 'atheism'), while Carrier's idea that this could lead to stories about godmen instead of ordinary (but heroic) men simply doesn't fit that definition.



I don't think Carrier needed to point out that a mythical Jesus would have necessarily been an example of what has been called "Euhemerism". He (Carrier) is just putting a name to the process by noting that from many centuries before the time of Paul, religious fanatics in that region (almost everyone was a religious fanatic at that time), had created stories about gods, angels, demons etc., saying they had done all sorts of quite detailed things on Earth, but where in fact those figures were all actually just imaginary religious beliefs about heavenly spirits.

All that Carrier needed to show, is that at the time it was common practice to create realistic sounding stories of how various gods and other heavenly creatures did all sorts of detailed things on Earth, when in fact these gods etc. were actually very clearly what we would now all understand to be imaginary spiritual beliefs. You don't need to say it was "Euhemerism" just to point that out. Although perhaps Carrier felt he had to identify the practice in that very specific way, simply because he was writing a book which his publishers were intending to offer for popular sale in high street bookshops ... ie in the same way that commercial publishers would probably have no interest in any such book unless it did present some specific myth theory (i.e., the publishers would probably have no interest in publishing books which merely pointed out why the evidence for Jesus is so far from convincing ... although that is in fact all that any of us really need to say about a HJ).

Another factor which, iirc, Carrier did not highlight in his books, is that it should be quite obvious that in biblical times, preachers like Paul (and probably everyone else) did not distinguish in any clear way between fact vs fiction. Instead they certainly believed (for example) that the gods and other heavenly figures were absolutely real. In fact, even today in the 21st century, billions of Christians (and Muslims) believe that God is literally a real person ... when any sane educated person would now have to accept that God almost certainly does not, and actually cannot, exist in any actual real form or sense.

But none of that should be a surprise to anyone. Just step back for a moment and look at the context of the time and it's wider picture - if, as seems quite possible from his letters, Paul was describing belief in a spiritual Jesus rather than any actual human preacher, then it's hardly surprising that later preachers in the gospels (for example) would preach to their congregation with scenarios and stories that told of this messiah doing and saying all sorts of wondrous things with his faithful followers on earth. That's just a quite obvious way to make the beliefs come to life in a way that people of the time could understand, and in a way which they could easily communicate to one-another to spread their religion. And especially so where at the time, people clearly did not distinguish any difference between what we would now call reality vs. fiction. To people like Paul, God was absolutely a real person ..., and a divine revelation of Jesus meant that Jesus was certainly a real person too. And that was never in doubt for any of these people anyway, because it was all true by divine prophecy in the OT since at least 500 BC (probably since 1000 BC).

Personally I don't have any particular allegiance to Carrier's specific form of myth theory. Except in so far as various elements of what he explains are obviously correct (e.g. just things like the unreliability of the biblical writing and also of the hearsay mentions in 11th century copies of things like Tacitus and Josephus, the similarity of various points to what was said for earlier dying-&-rising gods, and perhaps also the description of how in the writing of Philo it appears that the author was interpreting Jesus as a spiritual pre-existing messiah from what he (Philo) believed was written long before in the book of Zechariah, etc. etc.).

But it should be obvious, irrespective of any books from Richard Carrier, that since long before Paul and the gospels, religious people in that region had been creating stories of imaginary heavenly gods, saying that in their stories these gods had all been doing and saying all sorts of things on the Earth. And it now seems that same idea probably extends to OT figures such as Moses, Abraham, and King David, who are now widely thought even by biblical scholars, to be imaginary figures, but where they were given a quite detailed earthly narrative describing all sorts of realistic-sounding tales about them.
 
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I think this declaration from Theopedia represents the traditional Christian view.
The transcendence of God is closely related to his sovereignty. It means that God is above, other than, and distinct from all he has made - he transcends it all. Paul says that there is "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:6). Scripture says elsewhere, "For you, O LORD, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods (Psalms 97:9; cf. 108:5).
To affirm God's transcendence and deny his immanence is to arrive at deism. To deny his transcendence and affirm his immanence is to arrive at pantheism.​
The hucksterist announcement that "you are gods" is more likely to be found in teachings like this. Of course under the traditional Christian definition the nature of Christ is incoherent. It is proposed as a mystery, but in my view it is simple nonsense.

Well, just as well that I didn't actually claim "you are gods" or anything of the kind, eh?

But basically that's all I'm saying: most Xians consider their super-powered, aspect-of-God Jesus to be a historical person. Do you agree with that?

I could link you a few fundies claiming just that, if you want.

For that matter, there are saints who were believed to have had just a little less powers than Superman, and they still were considered historical humans by the church. I already talked about St Christina The Amazing, which really lives up to that name. She's pretty much immune to fire, frost, poison, mechanical harm so to speak, etc, and for days on end I might add, plus can raise the dead. Yet they considered her to be a historical person.

So what I'm challenging is the idea that oh noes, they couldn't be placing someone in history unless it's a completely unimpressive human. In fact they had no problem considering people to be historical humans, even if said people had superpowers.
 
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Well, just as well that I didn't actually claim "you are gods" or anything of the kind, eh?

But basically that's all I'm saying: most Xians consider their super-powered, aspect-of-God Jesus to be a historical person. Do you agree with that?

I could link you a few fundies claiming just that, if you want.
No I don't agree with that, of course. What would make you think I did? If he existed it was as a normal human being, with normal human knowledge and abilities.

Nor, needless to say, do I believe you claim that people are gods; I was simply stressing that this is not a Christian doctrine either.
 
No, I meant: do you agree that the Xians believe that?
There is good evidence that they do. I presume those who say that they believe in the Virgin Birth tales are being honest when they tell us so. Most of all, the centre of their teaching is the resurrection, and that is a miraculous event par excellence. Belief in the historicity of these supernatural events, rather than in the historicity of a peripatetic preacher with normal human powers, is the distinguishing characteristic of Christianity.
 
I'm not trying to find unity, only consistency. Either Dr Carrier's theory is consistent with what we find in the ancient texts, or it isn't consistent. We can determine that by comparing with ancient texts.

Doesn't such an approach make sense?

No. The ancient texts are not consistent. They do not form a single unified body of belief. They represent a kaleidoscope of views. That's what Second Temple Judaism was like.

That's surely obvious even just from the small sample of biblical texts.
 
I'm not trying to find unity, only consistency. Either Dr Carrier's theory is consistent with what we find in the ancient texts, or it isn't consistent. We can determine that by comparing with ancient texts.

Doesn't such an approach make sense?


See my quote by Carrier on the previous page in this thread:

"This [book of Hebrews] certainly seems to say Jesus died in outer space. Because here we're told that Jesus not only performed his sacrifice in the celestial temple (as in Heb. 9, as we'll see in a moment), but that he had to do so. Otherwise the magic of it wouldn't have worked."

No, it does not make sense when it is talking about anything more than records of kings/cattle/sales/etc. that are widely found and stories for which there is no historical basis (or scientific one) to assign truth to in real life. People have pretty much always told stories: some recorded, some not, some mostly real, some mostly made up. Absent some real records (a crashed wheel in a wheel or such) . More shortly.
 
I can imagine that any ancient Jew who imagined a heavenly temple thought of it as being in a higher heaven (though not necessarily -- but let's for sake of argument just assume this to be the case). That tells us nothing about specific beliefs that were possible about the death of a Son of Man or other figure there. There is no reason at all to think that Jesus' or some such figure's atoning death happened there as some form of temple-sacrifice. Other second temple texts tell us that some Jews could accept that the blood of holy ones that was shed anywhere in any place could have atoning power for the nation.

No-one believes Paul wrote Hebrews. It is nonsense to argue a case that rests on the claim that he might as well have written it because all ancients thought alike.
 
The debate on the heavenly sacrifice is one that belongs among scholars of Judaism and mythicists themselves -- among whom I think it has long been (and still is?) a minority view. The question of historicity is not necessarily affected by it.
 
If he [Jesus] existed, it was as a normal human being, with normal human knowledge and abilities.

Nor, needless to say, do I believe you[r] claim that people are gods; I was simply stressing that this is not a Christian doctrine, either.
This is somewhat misleading. Theistic Christians believe that their god was manifest as a person i.e. manifest as a normal human being, albeit with special knowledge and abilities, albeit for a short period of time (either all his life, or for the 2-3 yrs that he is supposed to have been active; which of those is not fully clear).

That is the basis of Christians having used the concept of other, non-Christian gods having said to have been -ie. supposed- been deified humans (because they had been euhemerized as such) to belittle all those other gods and to trumpet their own special god, Jesus Christ.
 
Mcreal said:
Yes, but note ... Plenty of roman emperors in the 1st and 2nd century were deified too.
But they really existed as men prior to their apotheosis.
Yes, that was my point. To highlight apotheosis.

Imagine this scenario. Suppose we read of a Roman God Elagabalus. But we can't find out where this God came from. Someone says, the idea of this god derives from a misunderstanding of passages in the Sybilline Books, which were later conceived of as referring to a real person (who in this scenario never existed).
Yes, that is essentially euhermism. I would have said or say

"which were later conceived as having referred to a real person"

i.e tense and description of it matters here.​

But along comes a follower of Euhemerus and says, I believe that this God originated as a person Sextus Varius Avitus Bassianus, who became emperor and identified himself as the God El Gabal.
I see that as essentially the same as the previous scenario you outlined (& that I have just commented on).

One thing I have an issue with is the term "follower of Euhemerus". I think you've used it before. i think it's wrong. There are only people who euhemerize. Euhemrus was not a cult leader and was not deified per se.
 
Here is how "euhemerism" is defined by some mythicists.

First, Dr Robert M Price, in Deconstructing Jesus, page 250 (my bolding):

[Paul Veyne] describes how thinkers of Greek and Roman antiquity, including Diodorus, Cicero, Livy, Pausanias, and Strabo, approached mythic figures such as Theseus, Herakles, Odysseus, Minos, Dinoysus, Castor, and Pollux: They readily dismissed the supernatural tales of their heroes' divine paternity and miraculous feats but doggedly assumed there must have been a historical core that had been subsequently mythologized. Their task as historians was to distill the history from the myth and to place the great figures where they must have occurred on the historical time-chart... The whole approach earned the name of Euhemerism, from Euhemerus who originated it. The idea was to assume that all ancient gods were glorified ancestors or historical culture heroes. Though no mundane, "secular" information about them survived, it had to be assumed that a genuine historical figure lay at the roots of the myths.​

See how Price notes that the ancient writers "readily dismissed the supernatural tales of their heroes' divine paternity and miraculous feats". That certainly doesn't describe the Gospels as the end product of euhemerizing. And Price correctly defines Euhemerisim as gods who were "glorified ancestors". Not "glorified god-men", which is a bit of an oxymoron.
Most of that is right, but you are doing what vridar has noted you are doing: You are using Price to generalize to imply what all euhemerists do or have done, or to imply what all ancient euhemerists did. Such generalization is fallacy. It's also the division fallacy (attributing qualities or characteristics of the whole to some or all of the parts of the whole).

As far as you claiming "gloried god-men" is an oxymoron, do you not think the "glorified god-man" concept does not apply to the Christian god?
 
This is somewhat misleading. Theistic Christians believe that their god was manifest as a person i.e. manifest as a normal human being, albeit with special knowledge and abilities, albeit for a short period of time (either all his life, or for the 2-3 yrs that he is supposed to have been active; which of those is not fully clear).
None of that is clear to me either, so I'll leave it be.
That is the basis of Christians having used the concept of other, non-Christian gods having said to have been -ie. supposed- been deified humans (because they had been euhemerized as such) to belittle all those other gods and to trumpet their own special god, Jesus Christ.
No doubt, but the ideas of Euhemerus were circulated in the third century BCE, so they are not Christian concepts.

As noted by wiki, he may well have been inspired by the divine honours being paid in his own day to Alexander and his successors in Syria and Egypt. He served as a mythographer at the court of Cassander, the king of Macedon, so he would have been well informed about such matters.
 
....No-one believes Paul wrote Hebrews. It is nonsense to argue a case that rests on the claim that he might as well have written it because all ancients thought alike.

It is also nonsense to argue that an actual contemporary of King Aretas called Paul wrote letters to Churches because ancients thought so.

All the Epistles under the name of Paul are in the same position as Hebrews [not written before at least c 175-180 CE]


There is simple no historical evidence at all anywhere that there was an actual person called Paul in the time of King Aretas who wrote letters to Churches and no historical evidence anywhere that any existing letters under the name of Paul are authentic.

Just like Jesus, the character called Paul is completely unknown in all writings attributed to 1st century non-apologetic writers.

The very people who argue that Jesus was only heavenly also argue that there are interpolations in letters considered genuine which means that they are really arguing that existing letters are not from Paul but are forgeries or false attribution.

It is most absurd to use forgeries or falsely attributed writings to argue that letters under the name of Paul were written early when Paul is unknown by non-apologetics and even Christians up to at least the late 2nd century.

The writing called Acts of the Apostles is also evidence that letters under the name of Paul were not yet fabricated up to at least c 62-64 CE and that the author of Acts knew nothing of the so-callerd Pauline Epistles.
 
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And here is David Fitzgerald, mythicist (my bolding): http://www.nazarethmyth.info/Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf

Most people have never heard of the Greek mythographer Euhemerus; and so many might be surprised to find that they are Euhemerists on the subject of Jesus. That is to say, though they may not believe Jesus was the divine Christ that Christianity venerates as the Son of God and savior of the world, and may regard accounts of the miracles and wonders attending him as mere legendary accretion; nevertheless they certainly believe there had to have been a central figure that began Christianity. Perhaps he was just a wandering teacher, or an exorcist, an apocalyptic prophet or a zealot who opposed the Romans.​

Again, Fitzgerald notes that the end product of Euhemerism is just a man, perhaps a wandering teacher.
Not really. Fitzgerald is not saying "the end product of Euhemerism is just a man", he is saying that thinking of the god-man Christ Jesus as a mere man is a form of Euhermerism (or, that proposing that Jesus Christ was merely a man is a form of Euhermerism). To that end Fitzgerald seems to be pointing out an irony.


But if you take Carrier's definition, the Gospels are the end product.
No Carrier's proposition is that the human-Jesus in the gospels is the result of at least one gospel-writer embellishing Paul's Christ-Jesus to have been a human on earth ie. 'fleshing Him out' (which is where the term 'fleshing out' comes from).
 
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Mcreal said:
Theistic Christians believe that their god was manifest as a person i.e. manifest as a normal human being, albeit with special knowledge and abilities, albeit for a short period of time
None of that is clear to me either, so I'll leave it be.
You don't understand the concepts of the Christian god?

.. the ideas of Euhemerus were circulated in the third century BCE, so they are not Christian concepts.
No, but Christians have used the concept of other, non-Christian gods having said to have been deified humans (because they had been euhemerized as such) to belittle all those other gods (and to trumpet their own god, Jesus Christ, as being different; born of a special woman, etc.).
 
No Carrier's proposition is that the human-Jesus in the gospels is the result of at least one gospel writer embellishing Paul's Christ Jesus to have been a human on earth ie. 'fleshing Him out' (which is where the term 'fleshing out' comes from).
This embellishment would appear to be superfluous, because Paul himself ascribes "flesh" to Jesus.

If you are saying that "fleshing" Jesus is the same thing as asserting him to have been "a human on Earth" I entirely agree, as I have already said.
 

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