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For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus

I'd say
Carrier's saying that later Christians, after Paul, took bits of myths about a celestial entity (an angel or archangel) and fabricating a human Jesus doing stuff on Earth.​
I think Carrier is proposing the euhemerizng happened over a shorter time period than had happened previously.

Actually, the way I understand it, he explicitly says that it happened in just about the same amount of time as we know other such developments happened. E.g., the euhemerization of such figures as John Frum or Tom Navy in cargo cults happened just about as fast as it happened for Jesus.

But generally, the case Carrier is trying to make is that basically his theory doesn't involve anything extraordinary. (And indeed if something were extraordinary, it would skew his Bayes application the other way.) So he's not going to say that something in Jesus' case happened in an extraordinary and unprecedented time scale.
 
1. Where does Dr Carrier say where the sacrifice was made? In the upper heavens or the lower heavens?
2. Where was the celestial temple located?

That to me is an inconsistency.

OMG. How many times? Why on earth are you trying to find a unity of ideas in texts that are clearly expressing different views of the heavens and its powers.

Where does Carrier say the sacrifice happened in the celestial temple? Why do you try to set up your fabulous chimera in place of C's actual arguments?
 
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Yes,
euhemerism was about rationalizing the myths of the gods as being about ordinary men (which is what Euhemerus was accused of doing, for which he was accused of 'atheism')

but No:
while Carrier's idea that this could lead to stories about godmen instead of ordinary (but heroic) men ...
Carrier's idea is that a celestial entity -eg. an angel, Paul's Christ- became to be portrayed as the human Jesus.

I think I see what you are saying: "Euhemerism" is the idea that the gods were in fact actual men ...
Kind of. More: either the idea that the gods had been actual men all along, or began to be portrayed as deified men

This
whereas for Carrier's usage the euhemerizers weren't even looking to find the "actual men" behind the stories.
is hard to fathom. It doesn't seem to come close.
 
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Actually, the way I understand it, he explicitly says that it happened in just about the same amount of time as we know other such developments happened. e.g., the euhemerization of such figures as John Frum or Tom Navy in cargo cults happened just about as fast as it happened for Jesus.

But generally, the case Carrier is trying to make is that basically his theory doesn't involve anything extraordinary ...
Yes, I agree. He describes the early 20th century cargo cults quite succinctly in the youtube video you posted a page or two ago. The development of at least one such cargo cult was documented by an anthropologist living with some Melanesians.
 
QUOTE=HansMustermann;11603274]I understand what you're saying, but euhemerization or euhemerism doesn't refer to the underlying belief. It refers literally to taking a previously mythical figure like Zeus or Hathor, and inventing or "reconstructing" them as historical figures.[/quote] Again, I'm not finding that reference in the literature. I'm consistently finding this sort of thing. My bold

Euhemerism is defined as the theory of the Greek writer Euhemerus that the Greek gods were created from real stories about humans and historical events.
An example of euhemerism is imagining that characteristics of Zeus are based on the actions of a real person.

image: http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.63/images/dictionaries/websters5.jpg

the theory of. the Greek writer Euhemerus (4th cent. ) that the gods of mythology were deified human beings; theory that myths are based on traditional accounts of real people and events

image: http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.63/images/ahd5.jpg

A theory attributing the origin of the gods to the deification of historical heroes.

image: http://cf.ydcdn.net/1.0.1.63/images/dictionaries/Wiktionary-logo.png

A belief attributing the origins of the gods to the deification of heroes after their deaths.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/euhemerism#EVoSlDyQVR3OVDDf.99
 
I understand what you're saying, but euhemerization or euhemerism doesn't refer to the underlying belief. It refers literally to taking a previously mythical figure like Zeus or Hathor, and inventing or "reconstructing" them as historical figures.
Euhemerism is defined as the theory of the Greek writer Euhemerus that the Greek gods were created from real stories about humans and historical events.
Whether it was a theory of Euhemerus is hard to tell.

Euhemerism is the term given to what he did, which is

"gods were re-created as having been derived from stories about humans and historical events or were given human characteristics"​

And Euhemerism may not be a theory per se


This is close to being representative,
An example of euhemerism is imagining that characteristics of Zeus are based on the actions of a real person.
but it seems to make category errors.

I'd replace 'imagining that' with portraying. I'm not sure the revered characteristics or actions of any god are really human actions.
 
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OMG. How many times? Why on earth are you trying to find a unity of ideas in texts that are clearly expressing different views of the heavens and its powers.
I'm not trying to find unity, only consistency. Either Dr Carrier's theory is consistent with what we find in the ancient texts, or it isn't consistent. We can determine that by comparing with ancient texts.

Doesn't such an approach make sense?

Where does Carrier say the sacrifice happened in the celestial temple? Why do you try to set up your fabulous chimera in place of C's actual arguments?
See my quote by Carrier on the previous page in this thread:

"This [book of Hebrews] certainly seems to say Jesus died in outer space. Because here we're told that Jesus not only performed his sacrifice in the celestial temple (as in Heb. 9, as we'll see in a moment), but that he had to do so. Otherwise the magic of it wouldn't have worked."
 
I'm not trying to find unity, only consistency. Either Dr Carrier's theory is consistent with what we find in the ancient texts, or it isn't consistent. We can determine that by comparing with ancient texts.

Doesn't such an approach make sense?

No.​
 
ETA Here's more from your Britannica article. In a utopian book, Euhemerus visits an island and there
discovers in a temple of Zeus the sacred inscription that gives the book its name. The inscription explains that Zeus and his ancestors Uranus (Heaven) and the Titan Cronus, as well as the other gods, were mortals who were worshipped because of their accomplishments or merits. Euhemerus may have been simply applying to all the gods what was commonly believed to be true of some —e.g., Dionysus and Heracles.​
Yes, but note

"Zeus and his ancestors Uranus (Heaven), and the Titan Cronus, as well as the other gods, were [said to be] mortals who were worshipped because of their accomplishments or merits."​

Did Alexander the Great start as a real human being and subsequently become deified? Yes. If I say that's probably how Jesus started off, I'm not saying the same thing as Carrier, am I?
No.

as an aside, Plenty of roman emperors in the 1st and 2nd century were deified too.

(as another aside, I think Alexander the Great was not deified per se, but his father was said to be Zeus or Hercules, or some such god).
 
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@GDon:
I think there's a difference between claiming that something exists in ancient texts, and claiming that it's in ALL ancient texts. As you well know, ancient texts are all over the place about cosmology.
 
Fair enough. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this.
I think you're being unreasonable. You said

"Euhemerism is the rewriting of a god as being completely human."​
I'd say Euhemerism is the rewriting of a god as having been human before the rewriting, but they are often still deified, and often still have the characteristics or attributes of gods, as well as human characteristics.
 
@GDon:
I think there's a difference between claiming that something exists in ancient texts, and claiming that it's in ALL ancient texts. As you well know, ancient texts are all over the place about cosmology.
Of course. I recognise the difference. If I've ever said that something exists in ancient texts, therefore it's in the background of all ancient texts, then that is a mistake. Where vridar got that idea from, I have no idea.

But my point is about whether something is consistent with ancient texts, even if the ancient texts are all over the place. If Dr Carrier's theory is NOT consistent with ancient texts, it doesn't mean that his theory is wrong. But at least lets acknowledge that it isn't consistent.
 
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@Craig B
While I'm all for finding common lexical ground, as you well know, dictionaries aren't really an in-depth source of information. Hence why appealing to the dictionary is genrally regarded as a fallacy.

Especially when you conveniently pick one definition out of many, and ignore even what the same dictionaries offer as alternate meanings, word origins, and almost 200 years worth of being used in those meanings: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/euhemerism

That said, I'm still not sure exactly what the problem you're seeing there. Maybe a bit more explanation would clear it up.

Bearing in mind that:

A) to the ancients, having superpowers or a divine ancestry didn't make one NOT human. Apollonius of Tyana wasn't some kind of non-human because his mom made him with TWO gods. (Holy gangbang, batman!;)) Nor did his having more powers than half the X-Men combined make him anything else than human. And

B) essentially that's what Carrier claims happened anyway: someone or another along the chain believed that those stories about a mythical Jesus or John Frum or Tom Navy, were based on a real person. A person with a lot of superpowers in Jesus's case, to be sure, but still a person.

What's the problem you're seeing there?
 
Yes, but note ... Plenty of roman emperors in the 1st and 2nd century were deified too.
But they really existed as men prior to their apotheosis. Imagine this scenario. Suppose we read of a Roman God Elagabalus. But we can't find out where this God came from. Someone says, the idea of this god derives from a misunderstanding of passages in the Sybilline Books, which were later conceived of as referring to a real person (who in this scenario never existed).

But along comes a follower of Euhemerus and says, I believe that this God originated as a person Sextus Varius Avitus Bassianus, who became emperor and identified himself as the God El Gabal. So if this god is ever credited with vouchsafing the whoopee cushion unto the human race (as in fact he has not been: just a hypothetical example), the Euhemerist might state that in reality the device was introduced by the Emperor known by that name (as indeed it was).

In this hypothetical case an Euhemerist theory of origin would have been factually correct.
(as an aside I think Alexander the Great was not deified per se, but his father was said to be Zeus or Hercules, or some such god).
A good example. Suppose that historical knowledge of Alexander had vanished and all we were left with was the myth of a remarkable being fathered by the God Zeus. A follower of Euhemerus does some research in obscure places and announces that in reality this person had been a human conqueror, and his father was in reality the ruler of a kingdom in the Balkans, not a god. That belief would be an instance of an Euhemerist explanation of the Alexander demigod figure known (in this example) only in mythology.

Euhemerus himself applied his theory to Zeus, no less, because in Crete there was an alleged "Tomb of Zeus". I don't think his theory is appropriate in that case. With regard to Zeus, I am a Dyshemerist.
 
I think you're being unreasonable. You said

"Euhemerism is the rewriting of a god as being completely human."​
I'd say Euhemerism is the rewriting of a god as having been human before the rewriting, but they are often still deified, and often still have the characteristics or attributes of gods, as well as human characteristics.

IMHO it's more like that they didn't really have the atheists' kind of hard distinction between humans and superheroes, between normal men and X-Men. People could be half-gods, or even two-thirds god (literally in Apollonius's case) and still be considered basically human.

So basically only the word "completely" may be a bit misleading in that quote. Otherwise, sure, regard them as humans. And humans may or may not have had superpowers.
 
Jesus as a deified man is completely contrary to teachings of the Church.



The Canonised NT spedifically teaches that their Jesus was God from the beginning, God Creator, the Logos--the Lord from heaven--the Word made flesh.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him....


Philippians 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men..


Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead..


Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...

It makes no sense that Christians of antiquity would tell people not to worship men as Gods while worshiping a supposed known man as God.

Again it is simply does not make sense that people in the Roman Empire knew that Jesus was only a man who was killed as a blasphemer yet worshiped him as a God.

A dead criminal is the very least likely candidate to be deified in order to represent a new COMPETING religion.

Examine writings attributed to Theophilus of Antioch.

http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/theophilus-book1.html

Theophilus to Autolycus
You will say, then, to me, "Why do you not worship the king?"

Because he is not made to be worshipped
, but to be reverenced with lawful honour, for he is not a god, but a man appointed by God, not to be worshipped, but to judge justly...

Jesus was always a non-contemporary non-historical character [God in the flesh] in the earliest manuscripts [P 46 and P75] who was always BELIEVED to have existed and never had any history.
 
Here is how "euhemerism" is defined by some mythicists.

First, Dr Robert M Price, in Deconstructing Jesus, page 250 (my bolding):

[Paul Veyne] describes how thinkers of Greek and Roman antiquity, including Diodorus, Cicero, Livy, Pausanias, and Strabo, approached mythic figures such as Theseus, Herakles, Odysseus, Minos, Dinoysus, Castor, and Pollux: They readily dismissed the supernatural tales of their heroes' divine paternity and miraculous feats but doggedly assumed there must have been a historical core that had been subsequently mythologized. Their task as historians was to distill the history from the myth and to place the great figures where they must have occurred on the historical time-chart... The whole approach earned the name of Euhemerism, from Euhemerus who originated it. The idea was to assume that all ancient gods were glorified ancestors or historical culture heroes. Though no mundane, "secular" information about them survived, it had to be assumed that a genuine historical figure lay at the roots of the myths.​

See how Price notes that the ancient writers "readily dismissed the supernatural tales of their heroes' divine paternity and miraculous feats". That certainly doesn't describe the Gospels as the end product of euhemerizing. And Price correctly defines Euhemerisim as gods who were "glorified ancestors". Not "glorified god-men", which is a bit of an oxymoron.

And here is David Fitzgerald, mythicist (my bolding): http://www.nazarethmyth.info/Fitzgerald2010HM.pdf

Most people have never heard of the Greek mythographer Euhemerus; and so many might be surprised to find that they are Euhemerists on the subject of Jesus. That is to say, though they may not believe Jesus was the divine Christ that Christianity venerates as the Son of God and savior of the world, and may regard accounts of the miracles and wonders attending him as mere legendary accretion; nevertheless they certainly believe there had to have been a central figure that began Christianity. Perhaps he was just a wandering teacher, or an exorcist, an apocalyptic prophet or a zealot who opposed the Romans.​

Again, Fitzgerald notes that the end product of Euhemerism is just a man, perhaps a wandering teacher. But if you take Carrier's definition, the Gospels are the end product.

Even the late Acharya S gets the definition right!: http://freethoughtnation.com/rabbi-did-jesus-actually-exist/

... as concerns [Rabbi] Singer’s description of mythicists, in reality there are not two camps of mythicists, one which opines Christ is a myth through and through, and one that believes there’s “some guy” at the core of the story, to whose mundane biography were added fabulous fairytales. This latter camp is, in fact, called “euhemerist” or “evemerist,” not mythicist...

Despite his protestations against other “very biased” scholars’ conclusion without any real evidence that Jesus existed, [Rabbi] Singer claims again that no one can know what really happened but it is likely that such a person did exist. Hence, the rabbi is an evemerist, but he believes in this way only because there were plenty of apocalyptic preachers in the Levant during Jesus’s alleged era.​

Second Century apologists also invoked the name of Euhemerus to show that the pagan gods were only men -- see my examples below. It wouldn't make much sense to have them claim "Your celestial gods are really men who ascended to heaven as gods". No, their claims were that Euhemerus showed that the pagan gods weren't gods at all, merely men. That is why Euhemerus was accused of atheism.

Here are references to Euhemerus by Second Century Christian apologists:

Theophilus of Antioch: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/theophilus-book3.html

And to speak of the opinions of the most atheistical, Euhemerus, is superfluous, For having made many daring assertions concerning the gods, he at last would absolutely deny their existence...​

The idea that Euhemerism can encompass the result of proposing "deified man-gods" along the lines of a Gospel Jesus is simply not found.

Here is Minicius Felix: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/octavius.html

In like manner with respect to the gods too, our ancestors believed carelessly, credulously, with untrained simplicity; While worshipping their kings religiously, desiring to look upon them when dead in outward forms, anxious to preserve their memories in statues, those things became sacred which had been taken up merely as consolations...

Read the writings of the Stoics, or the writings of wise men, you will acknowledge these facts with me. On account of the merits of their virtue or of some gift, Euhemerus asserts that they were esteemed gods; and he enumerates their birthdays, their countries, their places of sepulture...​

Finally, here is pagan philosopher Plutarch on Euhemerus: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/B.html

[We should not be] opening wide the great doors to the godless throng, degrading things divine to the human level, and giving a splendid licence to the deceitful utterances of Euhemerus of Messenê, who of himself drew up copies of an incredible and non-existent mythology, and spread atheism over the whole inhabited earth by obliterating the gods of our belief and converting them all alike into names of generals, admirals, and kings, who, forsooth, lived in very ancient times...​

Claiming that the gods did not exist, being an atheist with respect to the Greek gods, THAT is what Euhemerus and the euhemerists are famous for. It is not taking a celestial deity and placing it in history as a god-man. Carrier is simply wrong in how he defines Euhemerism. It isn't fatal to his theory, but it should make you wonder if he is as sloppy towards other topics in his theory.
 
@Craig B
While I'm all for finding common lexical ground, as you well know, dictionaries aren't really an in-depth source of information. Hence why appealing to the dictionary is genrally regarded as a fallacy.

Especially when you conveniently pick one definition out of many, and ignore even what the same dictionaries offer as alternate meanings, word origins, and almost 200 years worth of being used in those meanings: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/euhemerism

That said, I'm still not sure exactly what the problem you're seeing there. Maybe a bit more explanation would clear it up.

Bearing in mind that:

A) to the ancients, having superpowers or a divine ancestry didn't make one NOT human. Apollonius of Tyana wasn't some kind of non-human because his mom made him with TWO gods. (Holy gangbang, batman!;)) Nor did his having more powers than half the X-Men combined make him anything else than human. And

B) essentially that's what Carrier claims happened anyway: someone or another along the chain believed that those stories about a mythical Jesus or John Frum or Tom Navy, were based on a real person. A person with a lot of superpowers in Jesus's case, to be sure, but still a person.

What's the problem you're seeing there?
The problem is what this thread is supposed to be about. The existence of a historical Jesus. If you're saying there is no conceptual difference between the existence or non existence of a historical Jesus, because there's no difference between a person and a God, good and well. But that's a minority view. Now, Carrier may well have understood that along the chain people believed that Jesus stories were based on a real person. But Carrier is in effect stating that this belief is false. Others are inclined (with greater or less tenacity) to hold that this belief is true.
 

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