Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

[LondonJohn]

We have the bizarre logic of Hellmann that Amanda’s DNA on the knife handle is ‘strong’ but ‘Mez' is ‘contaminated’.

This one short sentence is as good a primer as any to the immense ignorance and scientific illiteracy underpinning this particular set of "arguments".

It's stupid and fundamentally incorrect to make the above statement. On top of other environmental and situational factors, the sheer relative quantities of DNA make it perfectly possible (and scientifically credible) to postulate that one person's DNA profile being found on a particular object is likely the reliable result of primary contact, while another person's DNA being found on the same object is massively unreliable and more likely to be the result of contamination than any genuine primary contact.

In the matter of the knife in this case, Knox's regular PCR-level DNA almost certainly showed up on the knife as a result of primary contact (which is entirely explainable in the context of Knox using the knife to prepare food in Sollecito's apartment); in contrast, MezzaWezza's DNA profile* most likely appeared on the blade as the result of contamination, owing to the super-low-template nature of the alleged quantities involved**


* If it was indeed MezzaWezza's true profile: not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni was incompetent in her work, and was unable/unwilling to provide vital source electronic data, including negative controls, to enable her analysis to be checked.

** We don't know the true nature of the super-low-template levels involved here, because incompetent not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni didn't undertake a proper quantification.

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, Judge Hellmann retired from the Italian judiciary (albeit in disgust at the levels of incompetence and patronage he was observing) in entirely the normal fashion. Unless one is in the business of peddling lies to further an agenda.......

 

[Welshman]

Independent forensic experts can only comment on the forensic issues they are directed to focus on. In other words, it is not their place to find anyone guilty or innocent. The Supreme Court exposed the 'independent' forensic witnesses ( a pathologist and an IT expert) as a couple of old frauds. The prosecution filed a complaint the pair were not independent at all. The carabinieri turned up at Vecchiotti hand over the DVD she and the defence had collaborated over. Vecchiotti ran to Hellmann to back her up. The crook was forced to issue a copy of the DVD to the prosecution. They were in the pay of the defense, they greeted the Raff defense teams with broard smiles and handshakes and were seen fraternising and dining with them during the hearing. Did you say 'INDEPENDENT'?

Vixen continues to make allegations of corruption against C&V but Vixen continues to refuse to explain how can she be in a position accuse people of being corrupt when she slavishly defends corrupt police/prosecutors who committed numerous abuses as detailed in my post below

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11568543#post11568543

 

[Vixen]

This one short sentence is as good a primer as any to the immense ignorance and scientific illiteracy underpinning this particular set of "arguments".

It's stupid and fundamentally incorrect to make the above statement. On top of other environmental and situational factors, the sheer relative quantities of DNA make it perfectly possible (and scientifically credible) to postulate that one person's DNA profile being found on a particular object is likely the reliable result of primary contact, while another person's DNA being found on the same object is massively unreliable and more likely to be the result of contamination than any genuine primary contact.

In the matter of the knife in this case, Knox's regular PCR-level DNA almost certainly showed up on the knife as a result of primary contact (which is entirely explainable in the context of Knox using the knife to prepare food in Sollecito's apartment); in contrast, MezzaWezza's DNA profile* most likely appeared on the blade as the result of contamination, owing to the super-low-template nature of the alleged quantities involved**


* If it was indeed MezzaWezza's true profile: not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni was incompetent in her work, and was unable/unwilling to provide vital source electronic data, including negative controls, to enable her analysis to be checked.

** We don't know the true nature of the super-low-template levels involved here, because incompetent not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni didn't undertake a proper quantification.

Your claim Patrizia Stefanoni is not a Dr. is a lie straight off. Your post is surely a satire of your satire. Sadly, we suspect it is not a satire at all, but the real McCoy. This is the real sadness.

THE WITNESS, CAUTIONED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ART. 497 OF THE CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, READS THE OATH
GENERAL INFORMATION: Stefanoni Patrizia, born in Naples on 15 January 1968. Currently I am Chief Technical Director [and] biologist [4] in the Forensic Genetics Investigations section of the Rome Forensic Police.
GCM:
The Public Prosecutor may proceed with the questioning.
Public Prosecutor - Dr. Comodi
MC:
Dr [Stefanoni], first of all, would you tell the Court what your specific knowledge and competence are, where you work, what duties you cover within the Rome Forensic Police, and then we will begin from when you were called with regard to these proceedings, what tests you carried out. You can just carry on, and if necessary I will interrupt you from time to time.
PS:
Yes, in the course of. As I previously said, I am the official in charge of the Forensic Genetics Investigations section in the Rome Forensic Police, therefore I deal with forensic genetic analyses, and thus with the DNA analyses which are targeted at, or shall we say are concerned with, obviously, the [exhibits/findings], traces, samples discovered on the various crime scenes and [confrontations/comparisons], naturally, of victims, suspects, persons under investigation: in other words, with all those who for various reasons have anything to do with any judicial investigation delegated to the Judicial Authority of our service within the Forensic Police.
MC:
Thus you are a biologist?
PS:
I am a biologist, yes.

 

[LondonJohn]

Not-a-REAL-doctor.

Kapish?

(satire of a satire of a satire, perchance?)

 

[LondonJohn]

And what about the huge levels of scientific illiteracy and ignorance underpinning the "argument" that it's illogical to propose that Knox's DNA on the knife handle was likely to be reliable primary-contact evidence while MezzaWezza's alleged DNA on the blade was likely to be the result of contamination?

Any comment on THAT part........?

 

[Vixen]

By the way, Judge Hellmann retired from the Italian judiciary (albeit in disgust at the levels of incompetence and patronage he was observing) in entirely the normal fashion. Unless one is in the business of peddling lies to further an agenda.......

No he did not. He himself admits he was forced to retire. Stop spouting off the top of your head.

Question: How come you left the judiciary right after that verdict?

Hellmann: I was practically forced to. Our decision was received with reactions of contempt. I can still remember the whistling and the shouting by a claque that had gathered outside the Court house on the evening of the verdict. From the next day I felt surrounded by a growing hostility. In the bars of Perugia they were saying I had sold out to the Americans, that I had yielded to the pressures of the CIA. Tall tales, of course, but what hit me more than the defamatory lynching that lasted years, was the reaction of colleagues in the judiciary. Nearly all of them stopped greeting me. In particular those who in various roles had been involved in the case. I realized that my Court had been a lone voice in a Courthouse where all the judges, starting with the GUP (Judge of the Preliminary hearing) up to those of various review courts, while criticizing the investigation, had endorsed the charges. In addition I had good possibilities of becoming the President of the Tribunal and naturally that position was assigned to another colleague who certainly was very worthy but I had some suspicion that it was a retaliation. So, six months after the sentence I decided to retire.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/hellmann-interview-march-30-2015/

 

[LondonJohn]

No he did not. He himself admits he was forced to retire. Stop spouting off the top of your head.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/hellmann-interview-march-30-2015/

1) "Practically". That word has a meaning - which you've conveniently omitted in your "argument". Dishonest.

2) Even in the construction "forced to retire", the salient element is "retire". Hellmann retired from the judiciary. In the normal way. Just as I said.

Stop spouting off the top of your head Mezzawezzadoodah would be so very proud.

 

[LondonJohn]

And what about the huge levels of scientific illiteracy and ignorance underpinning the "argument" that it's illogical to propose that Knox's DNA on the knife handle was likely to be reliable primary-contact evidence while MezzaWezzaWozzieWizza's alleged DNA on the blade was likely to be the result of contamination?

Any comment on THAT part........?

 

[Vixen]

And what about the huge levels of scientific illiteracy and ignorance underpinning the "argument" that it's illogical to propose that Knox's DNA on the knife handle was likely to be reliable primary-contact evidence while MezzaWezza's alleged DNA on the blade was likely to be the result of contamination?

Any comment on THAT part........?

The courts upheld, and Conti and Vecchiotti themselves concurred under oath, that far from being inconclusive, it was a strong profile of Meredith, at 15 alleles.

Vecchiotti admitted under oath there was no foundation to claim Stefanoni's laboratory was 'contaminated'.

Mez had never been to the abode where the presumed murder knife was found. The knife was collected by a completely different team than Stefanoni's. There is no logical path of contamination.

 

[Vixen]

1) "Practically". That word has a meaning - which you've conveniently omitted in your "argument". Dishonest.

2) Even in the construction "forced to retire", the salient element is "retire". Hellmann retired from the judiciary. In the normal way. Just as I said.

Stop spouting off the top of your head Mezzawezzadoodah would be so very proud.

He was forced out. Face it.

 

[LondonJohn]

The courts upheld, and Conti and Vecchiotti themselves concurred under oath, that far from being inconclusive, it was a strong profile of Meredith, at 15 alleles.

Vecchiotti admitted under oath there was no foundation to claim Stefanoni's laboratory was 'contaminated'.

Mez had never been to the abode where the presumed murder knife was found. The knife was collected by a completely different team than Stefanoni's. There is no logical path of contamination.

Totally avoided the actual matter at hand. Well done!!!!

(The matter at hand is how MezzyWezzorama's profile most likely came to be found on the blade of the knife, FYI)

 

[LondonJohn]

He was forced out. Face it.

Shall not face it. Don't tell me what to do. All for Mezzawizzywopwop!

 

[Bill Williams]

Your claim Patrizia Stefanoni is not a Dr. is a lie straight off. Your post is surely a satire of your satire. Sadly, we suspect it is not a satire at all, but the real McCoy. This is the real sadness.

Stefanoni is a Dr. using Italian parlance.

Italy has an academic tradition of allowing **anyone** with what we would call a bachelor's degree to be addressed so. The difference is that people with a Masters Degree or a Ph.D. would have a further designation to distinguish them from those with a first degree.

Don't, then, make a big deal about Stefanoni's title. She was mainly a technician who did not follow internationally recognized protocols. Her work was worthless.

 

[LondonJohn]

And, in passing, if Hellmann had committed "conduct unbecoming" (or worse), then he should have been subjected to a proper, formal disciplinary procedure - which might ultimately have led to either professional censure or dismissal from service. None of this, of course, happened.

If Hellmann had been "forced out", then this speaks horribly to the corruption and unaccountability of the senior ranks of the Italian judiciary and Hellmann's peers. Needless to say, the irony of this is entirely lost on the pro-guilt community. All for Mezalezzadibdib!

 

[Vixen]

Stefanoni is a Dr. using Italian parlance.

Italy has an academic tradition of allowing **anyone** with what we would call a bachelor's degree to be addressed so. The difference is that people with a Masters Degree or a Ph.D. would have a further designation to distinguish them from those with a first degree.

Don't, then, make a big deal about Stefanoni's title. She was mainly a technician who did not follow internationally recognized protocols. Her work was worthless.

By Italian standards she is a 'Dr.'. Get used to it, and stop being so disrespectful.

 

[LondonJohn]

By Italian standards she is a 'Dr.'. Get used to it, and stop being so disrespectful.

By international standards, she is not a "Dr". And by international standards, she's a mendacious and incompetent technician whose work on the Knox/Sollecito case was disgraceful, inept and unfit-for-purpose. Get used to it, and stop being so disrespectful (to the scientific method).

 

[Welshman]

Bill Williams has pointed that Vixen has failed to name an independent scientists who supports Stefanoni’s work. Another issue which Vixen refuses to address is the conduct of the prosecution if the DNA on the knife was valid. As can be seen from the links below, the prosecution engaged in the massive suppression of evidence, falsified documents, lied and committed perjury. I asked Vixen why the prosecution had to resort to these tactics if the DNA on the knife was so solid and the prosecution had a slam dunk case. Vixen has refused to answer. If the DNA was valid and the prosecution had a strong case, why is it that Vixen can’t explain the conduct of the prosecution? When Vixen defends Stefanoni and the prosecution, Vixen’s blatant hypocrisy is on display. Vixen accuses C&V, Hellman and the supreme court of being corrupt whilst slavishly defending corrupt prosecutors who carried out corruption on a massive scale as detailed in my links. Vixen constantly attacks Amanda and Raffaele for lying but defends and admires Stefanoni who as can be seen from the links below lied on several occasions and committed perjury.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/

 

[Vixen]

Bill Williams has pointed that Vixen has failed to name an independent scientists who supports Stefanoni’s work. Another issue which Vixen refuses to address is the conduct of the prosecution if the DNA on the knife was valid. As can be seen from the links below, the prosecution engaged in the massive suppression of evidence, falsified documents, lied and committed perjury. I asked Vixen why the prosecution had to resort to these tactics if the DNA on the knife was so solid and the prosecution had a slam dunk case. Vixen has refused to answer. If the DNA was valid and the prosecution had a strong case, why is it that Vixen can’t explain the conduct of the prosecution? When Vixen defends Stefanoni and the prosecution, Vixen’s blatant hypocrisy is on display. Vixen accuses C&V, Hellman and the supreme court of being corrupt whilst slavishly defending corrupt prosecutors who carried out corruption on a massive scale as detailed in my links. Vixen constantly attacks Amanda and Raffaele for lying but defends and admires Stefanoni who as can be seen from the links below lied on several occasions and committed perjury.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/

I disagree with your premise the investigators did anything wrong outwith the bounds of ordinary human error - and the police are human. Decent people doing a decent job. They have better things to do than frame law-abiding folk.

 

[Methos]

This is but a twig on the tracks ahead of a veritable psychotic freight train of an argument. Expecting even a delay - much less a derailment - will be in vain.

I know, never let the truth get into the way of a good story