Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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Is a judge's first duty to the Court and not to the defendant ?

A barrister has an overriding duty to the Court to act with independence in the interests of justice: he must assist the Court in the administration of justice and must not deceive or knowingly or recklessly mislead the Court. 303.
Part III - Fundamental principles - Bar Standards Board
https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/regulatory.../part-iii-fundamental-principles/

Rule 302 A barrister: (a) must promote and protect fearlessly and by all proper and lawful means the lay client’s best interests and do so without regard to his own interests or to any consequences to himself or to any other person


A judge is merely a barrister in a fancy wig and gown.
 
I don't think I've ever read any of the PGP say anything other than praise for the prosecution and the convicting courts. Indeed, when it was pointed out to Vixen that Judge Nencini in his 2014 conviction of the pair, said that Raffaele's DNA was found on the knife**** the only thing that Vixen offered was that the motivations report should have been proof-read better.

When the PGP show they can critique the prosecution and the courts....


**** will save it for others to point out what was wrong with this assertion/invention of Nencini's

I read it as a typo, which it obviously was, as it was Amanda's DNA on the knife, not Raff's. Proper nouns don't come up in spellchecks, so it is easy for the wrong name to creep into a court document, or someone's name to change half way through, or even be wrong all the way through. For example a Mr Barrett becoming a Mr Bennett, and nobody spots it as it is the court secretaries who type all this stuff up. The judges merely sign it.
 
I read it as a typo, which it obviously was, as it was Amanda's DNA on the knife, not Raff's. Proper nouns don't come up in spellchecks, so it is easy for the wrong name to creep into a court document, or someone's name to change half way through, or even be wrong all the way through. For example a Mr Barrett becoming a Mr Bennett, and nobody spots it as it is the court secretaries who type all this stuff up. The judges merely sign it.

Right, Vixen..... a typo. Right.
 
A barrister has an overriding duty to the Court to act with independence in the interests of justice: he must assist the Court in the administration of justice and must not deceive or knowingly or recklessly mislead the Court. 303.
Part III - Fundamental principles - Bar Standards Board
https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/regulatory.../part-iii-fundamental-principles/

Rule 302 A barrister: (a) must promote and protect fearlessly and by all proper and lawful means the lay client’s best interests and do so without regard to his own interests or to any consequences to himself or to any other person


A judge is merely a barrister in a fancy wig and gown.


1) A judge is not "merely a barrister in a fancy wig and gown" - either in attire or function.

2) In England and Wales at least, barristers too wear "fancy wigs and gowns", so the distinction is utterly meaningless and without merit.

3) Hilariously, the quote you provided states explicitly that a barrister "must promote and protect fearlessly and by all proper and lawful means the lay client’s* best interests"

Another torrent of ignorance and bullcrap. Well done!


* For "lay client", read "defendant" in a criminal trial (or the State, if the barrister is acting for the prosecution)........
 
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For Marasca to quash the verdict simply because of an OBVIOUS name typo goes to demonstrate incontrovertibly it is (a) corrupt, (b) dumb, (c) incompetent, or all three.

It knew what it was doing when it reinstalled the bent Hellmann claims.


If you believe that Marasca annulled and acquitted "simply because of a..... typo", then things are far worse than even I thought. Incredible.
 
1) A judge is not "merely a barrister in a fancy wig and gown" - either in attire or function.

2) In England and Wales at least, barristers too wear "fancy wigs and gowns", so the distinction is utterly meaningless and without merit.

3) Hilariously, the quote you provided states explicitly that a barrister "must promote and protect fearlessly and by all proper and lawful means the lay client’s* best interests"

Another torrent of ignorance and bullcrap. Well done!


* For "lay client", read "defendant" in a criminal trial (or the State, if the barrister is acting for the prosecution)........


Maybe I should have explained it more clearly and slowly. The vast majority of judges are appointed from practising barristers, normally with at least seven years bar experience. So you see, most judges are barristers by trade.

In addition, all lawyers', barristers', solicitors' and judges' first allegiance is to the court. In the UK almost all courts bear the royal coat of arms.

Technically, a lawyer has to work in his client's best interests, but not if it overrides that of the court or the state.

So, it is your theory that's smelly bull dung, that Marasca was 'secretly working it for the defendants', shows how awfully twisted and corrupt that court was that you imagine it to be perfectly normal and to be expected. Even having a wager that the ECHR will give a nod and a wink to the shenanigans.

Oh dear. We have come to expect this - ahem, how shall we say - slippery slope thinking from the PIP. Anything goes, eh, <fx nudge nudge>

Why are we even not surprised you are ignorant of the first priniciples of law?
 
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If you believe that Marasca annulled and acquitted "simply because of a..... typo", then things are far worse than even I thought. Incredible.

This is what Bill has been crowing about. Marasca put it in the written reasons that Nencini was amiss in accidentally calling Amanda Raff.


Marasca even berates the quality of the witnesses, when the child murderer and kidnapper and two-bit mafioso were the kids' Star Witnesses (their only witnesses! Oh, apart from Raff's Da', who swore blind the kids ate at eight and had the water leak all over by 8:42pm [so Papa knows for sure his leetle boy wasn't playing with his X-Box that night, having been asked by him to lie on his behalf]; and then there was Popovic whose description of Raff was that he seemed off his head.)

Perhaps you didn't notice the glaring contradictions and illogicalities in the written reasons, looking out through your jaundiced eye.
 
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Maybe I should have explained it more clearly and slowly. The vast majority of judges are appointed from practising barristers, normally with at least seven years bar experience. So you see, most judges are barristers by trade.

In addition, all lawyers', barristers', solicitors' and judges' first allegiance is to the court. In the UK almost all courts bear the royal coat of arms.

Technically, a lawyer has to work in his client's best interests, but not if it overrides that of the court or the state.

So, it is your theory that's smelly bull dung, that Marasca was 'secretly working it for the defendants', shows how awfully twisted and corrupt that court was that you imagine it to be perfectly normal and to be expected. Even having a wager that the ECHR will give a nod and a wink to the shenanigans.

Oh dear. We have come to expect this - ahem, how shall we say - slippery slope thinking from the PIP. Anything goes, eh, <fx nudge nudge>

Why are we even not surprised you are ignorant of the first priniciples of law?

Who is "we"?

You're the one who believes there are major gaffes typos in motivations reports, documents meant to condemn people to prison for 25 years, yet sloppily put together. And you defend it.
 
For Marasca to quash the verdict simply because of an OBVIOUS name typo goes to demonstrate incontrovertibly it is (a) corrupt, (b) dumb, (c) incompetent, or all three.

It knew what it was doing when it reinstalled the bent Hellmann claims.

LOL.

Strawman. Who has every claimed this? You simply are not worth wasting time on.
 
It is irrelevant what Marasca 'secretly thought'. A judge's first duty is to the Court, not to the defendant. And even if the judge is corrupt (as I believe the Marasca and the Hellmann court were) the conspiracy to render guilty persons innocent isn't going to extend to Strasbourg in Switzerland. The ECHR is a completely independent court with a different mission. Whether guilty or innocent, their focus will be, 'Was it a fair trial' as defined by the scope of their jurisdiction.

They will not note what Marasca was trying to write between the lines.

Vixen continues to make accusations of corruption against Hellman and the supreme court but still refuses to explain how can she be in a position to attack people for being corrupt when she slavishly defends corrupt police/prosecutors who committed numerous abuses as detailed in my post below :-

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11568543#post11568543
 
Maybe I should have explained it more clearly and slowly. The vast majority of judges are appointed from practising barristers, normally with at least seven years bar experience. So you see, most judges are barristers by trade.

In addition, all lawyers', barristers', solicitors' and judges' first allegiance is to the court. In the UK almost all courts bear the royal coat of arms.

Technically, a lawyer has to work in his client's best interests, but not if it overrides that of the court or the state.

So, it is your theory that's smelly bull dung, that Marasca was 'secretly working it for the defendants', shows how awfully twisted and corrupt that court was that you imagine it to be perfectly normal and to be expected. Even having a wager that the ECHR will give a nod and a wink to the shenanigans.

Oh dear. We have come to expect this - ahem, how shall we say - slippery slope thinking from the PIP. Anything goes, eh, <fx nudge nudge>

Why are we even not surprised you are ignorant of the first priniciples of law?



Ah brilliant! Attack as the first form of defence! Doesn't wash here though, I'm afraid.

Your nonsense that most judges have previously been barristers is as irrelevant to the matter as stating "most judges have previously been to university". All that matters is the role and responsibility of the judge as a judge. Not what that person's role and responsibilities were and were not when that person was in a different role. I'd have thought that much was glaringly obvious, even to a six-year-old. Evidently not.......

Equally ridiculous and irrelevant is your fatuous observation that E&W courts bear the royal coat of arms. So does the £1 coin (for example). And what does that mean about anyone holding a £1 coin? What a stupid "observation".

I do enjoy your weasel climb-down in slipping in that "technically, a lawyer has to work in his client's best interests, but not if it overrides that of the court or the state." (Particularly enjoying the weasel "technically" there!). And it goes without saying that justice and the state are paramount within the remit of a lawyer to work in a client's best interests - it would perhaps be within a client's "best interests" for his/her lawyer to (knowingly) lie in court, or to break the law by bribing witnesses. But that's why the overarching duty to justice and the state is in force. Again, child's play.

Lastly, you've introduced a (not-unexpected) straw man in suggesting that my position was that "Marasca was 'secretly working it for the defendants'". This is a ludicrously biassed and incorrect misinterpretation of my position. As you probably well know. Shame.

The final sentence of your post is ironic in the extreme (as well as being incorrect). But of course you wouldn't realise that......
 
This is what Bill has been crowing about. Marasca put it in the written reasons that Nencini was amiss in accidentally calling Amanda Raff.


Marasca even berates the quality of the witnesses, when the child murderer and kidnapper and two-bit mafioso were the kids' Star Witnesses (their only witnesses! Oh, apart from Raff's Da', who swore blind the kids ate at eight and had the water leak all over by 8:42pm [so Papa knows for sure his leetle boy wasn't playing with his X-Box that night, having been asked by him to lie on his behalf]; and then there was Popovic whose description of Raff was that he seemed off his head.)

Perhaps you didn't notice the glaring contradictions and illogicalities in the written reasons, looking out through your jaundiced eye.


No.

Bill pointed out the mistake (in stating that Sollecito's DNA was present on the knife) and its significance. It was only YOU who then asserted that Marasca had acquitted and annulled entirely because of that mistake. Do you not realise (or understand) this?

You then wander off into uncharted and unrelated territory about Alessi and Aviello (or should that be "Allosso (_sp?) and Avianca (_sp)" in the sloppy lack of research that appears to be de rigueur in some quarters round here.....?) and "Raff's Da'" (curiously employing a regional colloquialism for "father" for some unknown reason....) to criticise Marasca's reasoning - when it was you yourself who previously accused Marasca of acquitting Knox and Sollecito of acquitting/annulling purely on the basis of the single mistake in Nencini about Sollecito's DNA on the knife. Or do I need to remind you of the actual words you wrote? I do? OK. You wrote:

"For Marasca to quash the verdict simply because of an OBVIOUS name typo...."

Your arguments are pathetic, ignorant, constantly goalpost-shifting and intellectually dishonest. Disgrace.
 
Oh and by the way and for the record, when Popovic came back to Sollecito's apartment to inform him that she no longer needed his help, at around 8.40pm on the night of the murder, she spoke only with Knox - and neither spoke with or saw Sollecito. So Vixen's assertion that

"...and then there was Popovic whose description of Raff was that he seemed off his head"

is, once again, factually unfounded. Or, in more colloquial terms, yet more bat guano. Unsurprising.
 
(Vixen also ought to be very, very careful in stating boldly that Sollecito's father was asked by Sollecito to "lie on his behalf", and consequently did so in a court of law. Those sort of accusations can sometimes have very unpleasant consequences for those who make them without any reasonable supporting evidence - of which there's absolutely none in this particular instance. Just sayin'..........)
 
Oh and by the way and for the record, when Popovic came back to Sollecito's apartment to inform him that she no longer needed his help, at around 8.40pm on the night of the murder, she spoke only with Knox - and neither spoke with or saw Sollecito. So Vixen's assertion that

"...and then there was Popovic whose description of Raff was that he seemed off his head"

is, once again, factually unfounded. Or, in more colloquial terms, yet more bat guano. Unsurprising.

Vixen does not know even the most basic facts of this case - no wonder she has to make things up.
 
LondonJohn said:
If you believe that Marasca annulled and acquitted "simply because of a..... typo", then things are far worse than even I thought. Incredible.

Vixen said:
This is what Bill has been crowing about. Marasca put it in the written reasons that Nencini was amiss in accidentally calling Amanda Raff.


Marasca even berates the quality of the witnesses, when the child murderer and kidnapper and two-bit mafioso were the kids' Star Witnesses (their only witnesses! Oh, apart from Raff's Da', who swore blind the kids ate at eight and had the water leak all over by 8:42pm [so Papa knows for sure his leetle boy wasn't playing with his X-Box that night, having been asked by him to lie on his behalf]; and then there was Popovic whose description of Raff was that he seemed off his head.)

Perhaps you didn't notice the glaring contradictions and illogicalities in the written reasons, looking out through your jaundiced eye.

No.

Bill pointed out the mistake (in stating that Sollecito's DNA was present on the knife) and its significance. It was only YOU who then asserted that Marasca had acquitted and annulled entirely because of that mistake. Do you not realise (or understand) this?

You then wander off into uncharted and unrelated territory about Alessi and Aviello (or should that be "Allosso (_sp?) and Avianca (_sp)" in the sloppy lack of research that appears to be de rigueur in some quarters round here.....?) and "Raff's Da'" (curiously employing a regional colloquialism for "father" for some unknown reason....) to criticise Marasca's reasoning - when it was you yourself who previously accused Marasca of acquitting Knox and Sollecito of acquitting/annulling purely on the basis of the single mistake in Nencini about Sollecito's DNA on the knife. Or do I need to remind you of the actual words you wrote? I do? OK. You wrote:

"For Marasca to quash the verdict simply because of an OBVIOUS name typo...."

Your arguments are pathetic, ignorant, constantly goalpost-shifting and intellectually dishonest. Disgrace.

The Italian Supreme Court in 2015 simply notes that Nencini finding Sollecito's DNA on the knife is simply groundless. It does not seem to be used as a grounds for exoneration, except to also imply that Judge Nencini was a bit of a twit.

What I'd missed in that section (end of Section 8) was a shot taken at Stefanoni for her "imperceptible striation" in which all of this was supposed to have been found. The implication of that is also clear.

It's also the lead in to Section 9, where the ISC feels the need to combine the evidence for and against the accused, as a way of demonstrating how ludicrous the job Judge Nencini did in convicting.
 
To be fair to Nencini he was ordered to convict by Chieffi.

To be fair to Chieffi he was simply lazy and didn't bother to look at the case and assumed the media killer must be guilty.

It all comes back to: just listen to Hellmann next time and save yourself the trouble and embarrassment.
 
To be fair to Nencini he was ordered to convict by Chieffi.

To be fair to Chieffi he was simply lazy and didn't bother to look at the case and assumed the media killer must be guilty.

It all comes back to: just listen to Hellmann next time and save yourself the trouble and embarrassment.

It's, then, ironic that the 2015 Italian Supreme Court dressed down the Nencini court for assuming it was directed by the 2013 Supreme Court to convict.
 
I don't think I've ever read any of the PGP say anything other than praise for the prosecution and the convicting courts. Indeed, when it was pointed out to Vixen that Judge Nencini in his 2014 conviction of the pair, said that Raffaele's DNA was found on the knife**** the only thing that Vixen offered was that the motivations report should have been proof-read better.

When the PGP show they can critique the prosecution and the courts....


**** will save it for others to point out what was wrong with this assertion/invention of Nencini's

Perhaps more important is another error of Nencini.

"But all of this is entirely irrelevant to the question of the specific significance of the fact of having found Raffaele Sollecito’s DNA on the hook of the bra worn by Meredith Kercher on the evening of the murder. There is no reason for the DNA of Raffaele Sollecito to be present on that hook, as nothing in the case file indicates that there was any intimate or even merely familiar relationship between the victim and Raffaele Sollecito, apart from [244] the fact of his having been present on the evening of the murder and having pulled at the clasp with his fingers in order to cut the elastic closure at the moment when the victim was being attacked. Essentially, in not very technical but maybe more expressive terms, it is possible that many hands touched that bra clasp, but the one that is important at trial is that of Raffaele Sollecito, since the evidence places the defendant at the scene of the crime on the evening when the murder was committed, and indicates his taking an active role in the attack on Meredith Kercher."

This is a crucial piece of evidence as it is used to place Sollecito at the time and place of the murder.

1) The bra strap (elastic closure?) tore and was not cut. 2) If Sollecito had pulled at the bra strap he would have touched the fabric and not the hook! The fabric where his DNA was not found.

The DNA cannot attribute time, so Nencini errs in saying that he places him there on the evening.

The judge fails to recognise that secondary or greater transfer is a possibility, in analysing the evidence he has to show that he recognises the possibility even if he subsequently decides direct contact is the most likely explanation, here he implies direct contact is the only way DNA can be transferred. This is especially important in a low level of trace DNA.

The only time you usually touch a bra hook is putting on the bra, you need to do this to guide the hooks into the eyes. You do not touch the hook when taking a bra off, you just touch the cloth covering. This is why I think that Knox transferred Sollecito's DNA (along with others) from her hand on to the hook when she put the bra on. Certainly transfer post crime e.g. during collection is also possible.

Nencini only really considered the prosecution case (as ISC said he presented a case to justify conviction and did not seriously consider the defence case), To do so he invents a non-existent (indeed false) scenario, but one that could not explain the evidence it was supposed to explain.
 
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