Yeah, "sure". lol.
Yes, a belief. But not necessarily 'adoptionism'.
Not necessarily -
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For Kapyong: Defending a historical Jesus
- Thread starter GDon
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lol. You put the onus on another poster to have to refute your manipulation of what they said. That's unreasonable. It's unconscionable. It's unethical. it's immoral.
Writings like "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus and "Refutation Against All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus precisely show that it was considered heretical to teach that Jesus existed on earth as only human or only Spirit.
People like Carpocrates and Basilides were considered heretics for teaching Jesus existed on earth as only human where as Marcion was deemed to be a heretic for teaching that the son of God existed on earth without birth.
The writings under the name of Paul are not ever claimed to support an human only or only Spirit Jesus in any Christian writing of antiquity.
It is simply absurd to suggest that the writings under the name of Paul were known to be heretical by the Church for hundreds of years but were Canonised by the very same people who exposed all so-called heresies.
People like Carpocrates and Basilides were considered heretics for teaching Jesus existed on earth as only human where as Marcion was deemed to be a heretic for teaching that the son of God existed on earth without birth.
The writings under the name of Paul are not ever claimed to support an human only or only Spirit Jesus in any Christian writing of antiquity.
It is simply absurd to suggest that the writings under the name of Paul were known to be heretical by the Church for hundreds of years but were Canonised by the very same people who exposed all so-called heresies.
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Strongly agreed. The only occurrence of "seed" with the possible meaning "semen" in the NT is in Hebrews 11:11
Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
But what God specifically promised was that Abraham would become the father of multitudes; therefore the semen in question here must be Abraham's own; and God was involved through his promise that it would happen. Not that Sarah became pregnant by direct action of the Holy Ghost.
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Take it to the mods.
So, God!
promised
Genesis 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations ... 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan ... 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations ... 17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? ... 19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed ...
We are discussing brainache's assertion that "It was the 'seed' of certain famous Hebrew ancestors, not god in heaven." I agree, and have cited scriptural evidence in support of my view. If you wish to dispute this view you are welcome to do so. But what the single word "power" contributes to the issue, I do not understand. So please address my argument already posted here, or formulate one of your own, to sustain your case that the "'seed of David, Abraham, etc'. essentially was 'the seed' of god."
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SpuriusMaximus
Penultimate Amazing
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But again, "spermatos" in Koine Greek doesn't actually mean sperm. Literally it means a seed, as in grain. METAPHORICALLY it means descendants, but not necessarily in a literal sense. And is used all over the place for spiritual descent or continuation or just posterity or even a race or a tribe. Plus a few other meanings, such as the lifegiver power of the Holy Spirit.
lol
From the quote from Adv. Haer. that I gave. Here it is again. Best you read it -
Exactly.
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Yes, but the word can mean "semen" by figurative extension, as you say. The one and only NT occurrence where it might mean that is Heb 11:11, where the usage is ambiguous. But even if it is taken to mean descendants, I have shown that descendants of Abraham are explicitly intended by the wording of the text.
I have just looked up your Irenaeus here. The passage in context is
Moreover, he maintains that power which descended was the seed of the Father, which had in itself both the Father and the Son, as well as that power of Sige which is known by means of them, but cannot be expressed in language, and also all the Æons ...
The chapter is entitled:Sige relates to Marcus the generation of the twenty-four elements and of Jesus. Exposure of these absurdities.
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Yes, "scriptural evidence" - well, evidence of the evolution of scripture!
This is imputing modern thinking to the ancients. We know that the "middle-platonic" idea was that the moon was the beginning of the changeable, and therefore corruptible, sphere, and the further below the moon the more mutable everything became. The space between the earth and moon had to be filled with something (as every other sphere was filled with something: seas with fish, birds in the lower air, other creatures on land) and the view was that it was filled with spirits.
But we need to avoid imputing our own modern notions of dualism here because we know that it was believed by many that below the moon the spirits were corruptible (not pure and eternal as in the higher celestial unchanging sphere).
That is, below the moon spirits were not pure eternal spirit compositions but mixtures of elements that made them corruptible.
We see this concept in texts that portray a being putting on more and more heavier elements as it descends to earth and shedding them as it rises to the highest heaven.
The place in the air between the earth and moon was occupied by corruptible spirits, invisible but nonetheless not pure spirit -- they had corruptible elements in them. They did not therefore keep falling to earth because gravity was not understood until modern times.
I'm not sure what is so funny, but if you disagree please present your case.
That was the belief Irenaeus was declaring heretical in the passage you quoted:
"there descended on Him, in the form of a dove, that Being who had formerly ascended on high, and completed the twelfth number, in whom there existed the seed of those who were produced contemporaneously with Himself, and who descended and ascended along with Him. Moreover, he maintains that power which descended was the seed of the Father, which had in itself both the Father and the Son" It quite plainly says that "power" descended on Jesus in the form of a dove. A spiritual being entered into the flesh of Jesus at some point during his lifetime. Irenaeus is arguing that that was not the case:
I suppose you are saying that Irenaeus didn't actually believe the things he says he believes... Maybe you are right, maybe Irenaeus believed tap-dancing Pygmies were ruling the world from a secret base on the moon, but I'll just take him at his word that he believed the orthodox Christian views of his time unless I see evidence to the contrary.
In Heb 11:11, power is also alluded to -
By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.
Hebrews 11 is about faith -
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
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lol. Irenaeus's ramblings are part of the evolution of orthodoxy, not the consequence of it.
The bulk of the relevant para from Irenaeus, with the first words of the next para.
3 ... Moreover, he maintains that power which descended was the seed of the Father, which had in itself both the Father and the Son, as well as that power of Sige which is known by means of them, but cannot be expressed in language, and also all the Æons. And this was that Spirit who spoke by the mouth of Jesus, and who confessed that He was the son of Man as well as revealed the Father, and who, having descended into Jesus, was made one with Him. ...
4. Such ravings ...
4. Such ravings ...
Yes, as I said, Irenaeus's commentary is part of the evolution of orthodoxy, not the consequence of it.
If things were settled, why was Irenaeus repeating this stuff, or philosophizing over it? (A: coz it hadn't been settled when he wrote)
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