Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

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Oh gosh, I just have to defer to your expert advanced biochemistry credentials, then. <fx backs out of door slowly>

If what you need to accept that you are wrong is "advanced biochemistry credentials" then look no further than Prof Chris Halkides who does hold a Ph.D. in biochemistry. He has commented on the contamination probability here several times. Now that that's settled...
 
If what you need to accept that you are wrong is "advanced biochemistry credentials" then look no further than Prof Chris Halkides who does hold a Ph.D. in biochemistry. He has commented on the contamination probability here several times. Now that that's settled...


<fx nods approval, with a smile of amusement playing on the edge of the mouth>

<fx has a strange feeling, however, that - funnily enough - this won't be "settled" from a pro-guilt perspective>

<fx has a still-funnier feeling that facts, evidence, expertise, experience, understanding, knowledge, education and credentials can all be miraculously side-stepped in support of a pro-guilt "argument">
 
The exoneration - final and definitive acquittal - of Knox and Sollecito by the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation has ended for all time all potential legal actions, criminal or civil, against them for the murder/rape of Meredith Kercher. Legal actions that remain open include requests by Knox and Sollecito to the Italian authorities for compensation for wrongful detention.

In addition, Knox has lodged a complaint before the European Court of Human Rights alleging that Italy violated her Convention rights by convicting her of calunnia against Patrick Lumumba. Among other things, she complained that statements that she made under interrogation without a lawyer were used to secure her conviction.

An ECHR judgment of interest, relating to denial of counsel during interrogation:

SITNEVSKIY AND CHAYKOVSKIY v. UKRAINE 48016/06 7817/07 10/11/2016

Briefly, relevant to the AK - RS case, the ECHR found a violation of Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (c) of the Convention for the first applicant. The first applicant had been held as a suspect in relation to a certain crimes and signed a waiver of counsel. However, following interrogations, he was charged with a more serious crime, attempted murder or murder, which under Ukraine law required that he be given counsel, and he was assigned a lawyer. His statements from the period prior to his having a lawyer was used, in part, to convict him of attempted murder and murder. The ECHR judged that use of those statements constituted a violation of Convention Article 6.1 with 6.3c.

In its written judgment, the ECHR reiterated the following points of its case-law:

62. When examining the proceedings as a whole in order to assess the impact of procedural failings at the pre-trial stage on the overall fairness of the criminal proceedings, the following non-exhaustive list of factors, drawn from the Court’s case‑law, should, where appropriate, be taken into account:

(a) Whether the applicant was particularly vulnerable, for example, by reason of his age or mental capacity.

(b) The legal framework governing the pre-trial proceedings and the admissibility of evidence at trial, and whether it was complied with; where an exclusionary rule applied, it is particularly unlikely that the proceedings as a whole would be considered unfair.

(c) Whether the applicant had the opportunity to challenge the authenticity of the evidence and oppose its use.

(d) The quality of the evidence and whether the circumstances in which it was obtained cast doubt on its reliability or accuracy, taking into account the degree and nature of any compulsion.

(e) Where evidence was obtained unlawfully, the unlawfulness in question and, where it stems from a violation of another Convention Article, the nature of the violation found.

(f) In the case of a statement, the nature of the statement and whether it was promptly retracted or modified.

(g) The use to which the evidence was put, and in particular whether the evidence formed an integral or significant part of the probative evidence upon which the conviction was based, and the strength of the other evidence in the case.

(h) Whether the assessment of guilt was performed by professional judges or lay jurors, and in the case of the latter the content of any jury directions.

(i) The weight of the public interest in the investigation and punishment of the particular offence in issue.

(j) Other relevant procedural safeguards afforded by domestic law and practice (ibid., 274).

63. Neither the letter nor the spirit of Article 6 of the Convention prevents a person from waiving of his own free will, either expressly or tacitly, his entitlement to the guarantees of a fair trial. However, if it is to be effective for Convention purposes, a waiver of the right to take part in the trial must be established in an unequivocal manner and be attended by minimum safeguards commensurate with its importance. Furthermore, it must not run counter to any important public interest (see Sejdovic v. Italy [GC], no. 56581/00, § 86, ECHR 2006‑II). For a waiver to be effective it must be shown that the applicant could reasonably have foreseen the consequences of his conduct (see, mutatis mutandis, Idalov v. Russia [GC], no. 5826/03, § 173, 22 May 2012). The right to counsel, being a fundamental right among those which constitute the notion of a fair trial and ensuring the effectiveness of the rest of the guarantees set forth in Article 6 of the Convention, is a prime example of those rights which require the special protection of the “knowing and intelligent waiver” standard established in the Court’s case-law (see Dvorski v. Croatia [GC], no. 25703/11, § 101, ECHR 2015).

______

Here is some analysis of what the case cited above and similar cases mean to Knox v. Italy, the case Amanda lodged with the ECHR alleging that Italy violated her Convention rights by convicting her of calunnia against Patrick Lumumba.

The ECHR will apply the same case-law in its evaluation of the conduct of the Italian authorities as it has to that of Ukraine or any other Council of Europe treaty member.

The use by Italy or any other CoE State of statements made by a person in an interrogation without a lawyer, even if the interrogation is called a witness interview by the State, to convict that person, is generally a violation of Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3c. Legal counsel in an interrogation cannot be waived without full knowledge by the person interrogated of the legal consequences of the waiver. The ECHR has developed and uses in each case a non-exhaustive list of factors it considers in such cases, so that it maintains an objective and uniform basic procedure for judgment. The finding of a violation under Articles 6.1 with 6.3c means that the person convicted is entitled, under the Convention, to request a retrial with the exclusion of the use of the statements obtained in violation of the Convention. In Amanda's case, that would lead to there being no evidence of an accusation or statement against Lumumba.


Exactly. In law (including Italian law and the Italian CCP), Knox's statements from the night of 5th/6th November 2007 should never have been used against her. Every single one of them (including the "spontaneous declaration" (!!) and the so-called "memoriales" from the following day) was obtained unlawfully. It's as simple as that. A slam-dunk.

And that's of course before one even starts to consider the circumstances in which the various statements (particularly the first one and the "spontaneous declaration") were obtained. It's pretty clear to any objective observer - and it will be pretty clear to the ECHR - that Knox's first statement was obtained via unlawful coercion, and that Mignini acted unlawfully in obtaining the "spontaneous declaration".

But even if Knox (as per the common pro-guilt fantasy) had been having a lovely relaxing chat with the police when she suddenly "blurted out" Lumumba's name, any such statement should have been unusable against Knox herself - unless and until she had had access to legal counsel, had been re-interviewed by the PM with counsel presence, and had repeated the accusation and signed a statement to that effect.
 
<fx nods approval, with a smile of amusement playing on the edge of the mouth>

<fx has a strange feeling, however, that - funnily enough - this won't be "settled" from a pro-guilt perspective>

<fx has a still-funnier feeling that facts, evidence, expertise, experience, understanding, knowledge, education and credentials can all be miraculously side-stepped in support of a pro-guilt "argument">

Oh, come now, LJ! We have scientific evidence of guilt: her eyes, the way she looks down, the arch of an eyebrow, etc.
 
Oh, come now, LJ! We have scientific evidence of guilt: her eyes, the way she looks down, the arch of an eyebrow, etc.


Plus, I can look at the footage/photos from outside the cottage on the afternoon of 2nd November, and I can tell from HERE that she obviously hadn't washed her hair that morning! Furthermore, I can easily and clearly tell that she'd been up all night worrying and cleaning up and being in a murderous thrill. And I can tell she smelled nasty. Just look at the professional, watchful police officers near her. They could clearly all smell her.

:rolleyes:
 
But even if Knox (as per the common pro-guilt fantasy) had been having a lovely relaxing chat with the police when she suddenly "blurted out" Lumumba's name, any such statement should have been unusable against Knox herself - unless and until she had had access to legal counsel, had been re-interviewed by the PM with counsel presence, and had repeated the accusation and signed a statement to that effect.

The guilter fantasy has usually echoed what John Follain wrote in his book, "A Death in Italy."

No mention of the translator's actions can be found in Follain's account - no mention of what former poster to here called her "mediation" or as he said in his last gasp at it, her role as a diplomat......

In fact the way Follain writes it up, it sounded like they'd stuffed her so much with muffins and chamomile tea that she had to blurt out Lumumba's name to stop all that good treatment!

No mention of a couple of helpful slaps to the back of the head - an accusation Knox herself made against the police - the claimed defamation of which she was recently acquitted of.

The nutso guilters attached themselves to the wrong side of the narrative (cf. Follain's) as well as the wrong side of the case.
 
The guilter fantasy has usually echoed what John Follain wrote in his book, "A Death in Italy."

No mention of the translator's actions can be found in Follain's account - no mention of what former poster to here called her "mediation" or as he said in his last gasp at it, her role as a diplomat......

In fact the way Follain writes it up, it sounded like they'd stuffed her so much with muffins and chamomile tea that she had to blurt out Lumumba's name to stop all that good treatment!

No mention of a couple of helpful slaps to the back of the head - an accusation Knox herself made against the police - the claimed defamation of which she was recently acquitted of.

The nutso guilters attached themselves to the wrong side of the narrative (cf. Follain's) as well as the wrong side of the case.


Not to mention interpreter Donnino's somewhat inconvenient (to the police and PM) testimony in court confirming the police were telling Knox that she (Knox) was suffering some sort of "traumatic memory loss" - Donnino of course testified that she (Donnino) had told Knox of a personal example of how she (Donnino) had broken her ankle once and couldn't remember events around it owing to the trauma of the situation.

This unequivocally confirms that the police MUST have been putting "the truth" to Knox (that Knox had met up with the murderer (Lumumba) and taken him to the cottage whereupon he had raped and killed Kercher), telling Knox that she now needed to remember "the truth", and suggesting to her reasons why she might be finding it hard to remember "the truth". There's simply no other reasonable explanation that fits with Donnino's testimony. The very fact that the issue of "traumatic memory loss" was being suggested/directed automatically implies that Knox had been involved in intense personal trauma at the time of the murder. And this simply wouldn't have been a suggestion had the police thought Knox was nothing more than a housemate and person of interest.

It's been so obvious for so long. The real tragedy, and the totally inexplicable area here, is why so many Italian courts couldn't see what was right in front of their faces. And I'd have to add, once again I can't help but believe that Knox's defence team were at the very least remiss (and at the most badly incompetent) in not making these points extremely forcefully and clearly to the courts.
 
Exactly so.

Your middle paragraph above is spot-on in respect of the obvious evidence that the bra was removed from Kercher by being forcibly pulled until the fabric seam tore open (and you can add to that the fact that the infamous metal hook on the clasp is bent into an open shape, indicating that the hook itself had been bent by this forcible pulling until the fabric seam gave way).

<snip>

In terms of transfer routes for Sollecito's DNA to the hook, I'd postulate that there are two other very viable potential tertiary transfer mechanisms here:

1) Sollecito's hand to Kercher's outer door face/handle; door face/handle to inept forensic technician's glove; inept forensic technician's glove to bra clasp hook (while hook is being inexplicably and grossly-incompetently passed round from person to person and being held by the hook).

2) Sollecito's hand to Kercher's outer door face/handle; door face/handle to (unknown, since totally undocumented) hand of cleaning crew person*; hand of cleaning crew person to bra clasp hook as that person picks up larger items of (apparent) detritus on the floor to move over to the side of the room while cleaning.


Nice summary.

I believe that there was also DNA from two other unidentified people on the bra clasp? Since the presence of Sollecito's DNA is used by some to declare his guilt, then it stands to reason that the other two people are also complicit in Meredith Kercher's murder. I would like to see a reasonable narrative describing how Sollecito, Knox, Lumumba, Guede, and two other people crowded into Kercher's small bedroom and committed the act.
 
Nice summary.

I believe that there was also DNA from two other unidentified people on the bra clasp? Since the presence of Sollecito's DNA is used by some to declare his guilt, then it stands to reason that the other two people are also complicit in Meredith Kercher's murder. I would like to see a reasonable narrative describing how Sollecito, Knox, Lumumba, Guede, and two other people crowded into Kercher's small bedroom and committed the act.

Not according to Judge Nencini who convicted the pair in Florence in 2014.

While saying it was up to the defence to prove a route of contamination (!), Nencini saw it fit to speculate who the other profiles belonged to. Without a speck of evidence to justify saying so, he speculated that the other profiles might have belonged to Meredith's boyfriend and "two amicas", but that the point was that Raffaele's was found.

No wonder Nencini's conviction was annulled with such faulty reasoning.
 
This may be deemed off topic in the context of the thread title

Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

However President elect, Donald Trump declared unequivocally the answer to the question was not

"Amanda Knox".

I think we should therefore register that Amanda Knox is a complex and thoroughly modern woman.

She deplores Donald Trump.

When she said these words in the third debate, Clinton became a champion in my eyes. She demonstrated that while she may not be the obvious and most relatable champion, she’s the champion of nuance, and complexity, and reality. If Obama’s song was a rousing anthem, Clinton’s is a subtle symphony. And Trump, a broken trumpet.

Chris put it another way. “It’s crazy,” he said. “It’ll be an historic moment when Hillary wins. But she doesn’t just have to defeat a man to become the first female President. She has to defeat the Worst Man, the most misogynistic man imaginable.”

I’m feeling less apathetic about this election. It’s not that Clinton has shown herself to be more than just the lesser of two evils. It’s that her impending victory represents the triumph of nuance and poise over prejudice and childishness.

And that’s something I can get excited about.


http://www.amandaknox.com/2016/10/24/champion/

Amanda did not kill Meredith Kercher in case thread readers regard this as an unresolved question.
 
This may be deemed off topic in the context of the thread title

Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

However President elect, Donald Trump declared unequivocally the answer to the question was not

"Amanda Knox".

I think we should therefore register that Amanda Knox is a complex and thoroughly modern woman.

She deplores Donald Trump.

When she said these words in the third debate, Clinton became a champion in my eyes. She demonstrated that while she may not be the obvious and most relatable champion, she’s the champion of nuance, and complexity, and reality. If Obama’s song was a rousing anthem, Clinton’s is a subtle symphony. And Trump, a broken trumpet.

Chris put it another way. “It’s crazy,” he said. “It’ll be an historic moment when Hillary wins. But she doesn’t just have to defeat a man to become the first female President. She has to defeat the Worst Man, the most misogynistic man imaginable.”

I’m feeling less apathetic about this election. It’s not that Clinton has shown herself to be more than just the lesser of two evils. It’s that her impending victory represents the triumph of nuance and poise over prejudice and childishness.

And that’s something I can get excited about.


http://www.amandaknox.com/2016/10/24/champion/

Amanda did not kill Meredith Kercher in case thread readers regard this as an unresolved question.

You do have some strange folk heroes. Who cares what Amanda thinks? This woman thought it was appropriate to claim her Congolese boss Patrick, who was only ever nice to her, raped and killed her'friend', Mez. Her Mom, Edda, thought nothing of keeping up the charade and would have been happy to let him rot in jail. Thank goodness this innocent man had an impeccable alibi and respectable witness as to his whereabouts. Compare and contrast to the evil child kidnapper and murderer and twisted mafiosi Amanda and Raff wheeled out to plead their case. Would this be the same 'Democrat' who thinks rapists should not get even six months jail if they are on the college swimming team?

Raff said he was very happy about Trump's win, so we see he's only radical when it suits him.

Typical self-centred narcissists.

ETA Given the way of the world with Brexit and now sleazy sex predator Trump, no doubt to be followed by France in their elections, there may be something to be said of the ideas offered by Plato in his Republic.
 
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Nice summary.

I believe that there was also DNA from two other unidentified people on the bra clasp? Since the presence of Sollecito's DNA is used by some to declare his guilt, then it stands to reason that the other two people are also complicit in Meredith Kercher's murder. I would like to see a reasonable narrative describing how Sollecito, Knox, Lumumba, Guede, and two other people crowded into Kercher's small bedroom and committed the act.

Please pay attention: there was one other unidentifed DNA profile on the clasp. this does not cancel out Raff's clear, strong DNA on it. Somebody thought it fun to rip off Mez' bra post mortem - the knife flicks on her hands, arms and under her chin are on exposed areas of her body, which suggests she was dressed at the time she was tortured by a knife man - who do you think that might have been, bearing in mind Rudy fled and didn't come back?

BTW a whole group of judges and counsel were able quite easily to assemble in Mez' room during the trial.
 
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Please pay attention: there was one other unidentifed DNA profile on the clasp. this does not cancel out Raff's clear, strong DNA on it.

No, there were two unidentified DNA profiles. Please stop lying, trolling, and making stuff up as you go.

You are correct on the other point, it does not "cancel out [Raf's DNA]" as that would make absolutely no sense. This is why no one is saying it "cancels it out" and you are just fabricating this in your head.

What it does, is it proves DNA of people who weren't involved in the murder was transferred to the bra clasp. We know innocent DNA transfer is possible based on every single peer reviewed scientific publication that has studied this possibility. We know people who weren't involved in the murder had DNA on the clasp (two unidentified profiles, upping the total to 5 people). Thus, this bra clasp was contaminated with people who weren't involved in the murder. Raffaele happened to be one of them because he had been in that house multiple times so his DNA was present locally.

Do you understand now?

Somebody thought it fun to rip off Mez' bra post mortem - the knife flicks on her hands, arms and under her chin are on exposed areas of her body, which suggests she was dressed at the time she was tortured by a knife man - who do you think that might have been, bearing in mind Rudy fled and didn't come back?

There is no way anyone can possibly know when Meredith's bra was ripped off. We can infer it was likely during Rudy's sexual assault, which we know occurred because his DNA was inside Meredith's vagina. I know you think it unfathomable Rudy would rip off Meredith's bra during a sexual assault, but that's because your brain doesn't work.

BTW a whole group of judges and counsel were able quite easily to assemble in Mez' room during the trial.

That's great. Did they have a 4 way pagan sex orgy? Because that's what you think happened in that room. Standing around in a room and a pagan sex orgy murder are two different things. My guess is the pagan sex orgy murder takes more space so it is less likely to spontaneously occur in a small space.
 
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. . . . there were two unidentified DNA profiles . . . . . which proves DNA of people who weren't involved in the murder was transferred to the bra clasp. We know innocent DNA transfer is possible based on every single peer reviewed scientific publication that has studied this possibility. We know people who weren't involved in the murder had DNA on the clasp (two unidentified profiles, upping the total to 5 people). Thus, this bra clasp was contaminated with people who weren't involved in the murder. Raffaele happened to be one of them because he had been in that house multiple times so his DNA was present locally.


Might these unidentified individuals have worked in Stefanoni's lab? Wonder if that would have been due to contamination? Imagine that . . .
 
No, there were two unidentified DNA profiles. Please stop lying, trolling, and making stuff up as you go.

You are correct on the other point, it does not "cancel out [Raf's DNA]" as that would make absolutely no sense. This is why no one is saying it "cancels it out" and you are just fabricating this in your head.

What it does, is it proves DNA of people who weren't involved in the murder was transferred to the bra clasp. We know innocent DNA transfer is possible based on every single peer reviewed scientific publication that has studied this possibility. We know people who weren't involved in the murder had DNA on the clasp (two unidentified profiles, upping the total to 5 people). Thus, this bra clasp was contaminated with people who weren't involved in the murder. Raffaele happened to be one of them because he had been in that house multiple times so his DNA was present locally.

Do you understand now?



There is no way anyone can possibly know when Meredith's bra was ripped off. We can infer it was likely during Rudy's sexual assault, which we know occurred because his DNA was inside Meredith's vagina. I know you think it unfathomable Rudy would rip off Meredith's bra during a sexual assault, but that's because your brain doesn't work.



That's great. Did they have a 4 way pagan sex orgy? Because that's what you think happened in that room. Standing around in a room and a pagan sex orgy murder are two different things. My guess is the pagan sex orgy murder takes more space so it is less likely to spontaneously occur in a small space.


Incorrect. There were fragments below the legally accepted standard, which is over ten alleles to be significant of ID. There would be a risk of contamination if those were accepted, because they are of the type found in household dust. You do know Vinci for the defence found 6-8 alleles of Amanda and Rudy on the bra fabric and Gill's chum, Pascali, walked off the case shortly after?

...And that a fair hair was found in that region, too?


You have sex on the brain. You never stop talking about sex orgies.
 
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Please pay attention: there was one other unidentifed DNA profile on the clasp. this does not cancel out Raff's clear, strong DNA on it. Somebody thought it fun to rip off Mez' bra post mortem - the knife flicks on her hands, arms and under her chin are on exposed areas of her body, which suggests she was dressed at the time she was tortured by a knife man - who do you think that might have been, bearing in mind Rudy fled and didn't come back?

BTW a whole group of judges and counsel were able quite easily to assemble in Mez' room during the trial.

The only person who promotes this fantasy is you. None of the forensic pathologists suggested this, the prosecutors did not suggest this, none of the courts found this to be the case, indeed it was ruled and therefore in your terms is a (judicial) fact these were defence wounds on the hands. The wounds on the neck are typical wounds found when trying to subdue an individual by holding a knife to the neck. What do you think it says about your psychology that you invent these lurid scenarios? I am sure in the whack-a-fox fashion you will come up with how the body was posed to emulate a Halloween murder scene in a graphic novel even though the scene does not exist.

We know the bra was certainly displaced pre mortem because of the blood droplet deposition, though one cannot know for certain the exact timing of the tearing of the bra strap in relation to the victim's death.

Sollecito's DNA was a fraction of Kercher's on the bra hook; typical for secondary or tertiary deposition. As previously argued Sollecito's DNA could not have been deposited on the bra hook, but not on the cloth of the bra fastener or strap, if he had been grasping the bra during a struggle firms enough to rip the bra apart; therefore we know it cannot have been deposited during the attack on the victim.
 
Incorrect. There were fragments below the legally accepted standard, which is over ten alleles to be significant of ID. There would be a risk of contamination if those were accepted, because they are of the type found in household dust. You do know Vinci for the defence found 6-8 alleles of Amanda and Rudy on the bra fabric and Gill's chum, Pascali, walked off the case shortly after?

...And that a fair hair was found in that region, too?


You have sex on the brain. You never stop talking about sex orgies.

This is untrue. Vinci found no alleles as he did not do any DNA analysis on the bra hook!

You cannot know how many alleles of another individual were present, one can say there were 8 alleles not attributable to Sollecito, Knox, Guede, or Kercher; BUT some of the alleles attributable to Sollecito and Kercher may be also attributable to another individual so e.g. eleven alleles of another individual may have been present. Given that testing for 17 STR gives a possible 34 alleles one would expect an overlap with in mixed DNA.
 
Incorrect. There were fragments below the legally accepted standard, which is over ten alleles to be significant of ID. There would be a risk of contamination if those were accepted, because they are of the type found in household dust. You do know Vinci for the defence found 6-8 alleles of Amanda and Rudy on the bra fabric and Gill's chum, Pascali, walked off the case shortly after?

...And that a fair hair was found in that region, too?


You have sex on the brain. You never stop talking about sex orgies.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

So, I take it that you have now turned against Mr. Mignini, who saw sex at every turn in this case?

I take it you have also disavowed the 2013 Supreme Court reversal of the Hellmann acquittal, partly because the dirty-minded people on Section One of the ISC thought that the "sex-game gone wrong" theory had not been properly examined? They brought up the subject again just as the Hellmann court, a fact finding court, had found that neither RS nor AK had had anything to do with the murder. Did the ISC in 2013 have "sex on the brain"? Everyone else had long since moved on from Mignini's slutty, early theory.

You have also seemed to have disavowed the 100s of guilters - now strangely silent - who thought the key to this case was examining the sex life of a young, college aged American who went to Europe and sowed some wild oats in the process..... (if that were true, there must be millions of unsolved murders across the continent!)

There have been some posts which have been real howlers, but the one above is perhaps the best of all!
 
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

So, I take it that you have now turned against Mr. Mignini, who saw sex at every turn in this case?

I take it you have also disavowed the 2013 Supreme Court reversal of the Hellmann acquittal, partly because the dirty-minded people on Section One of the ISC thought that the "sex-game gone wrong" theory had not been properly examined? They brought up the subject again just as the Hellmann court, a fact finding court, had found that neither RS nor AK had had anything to do with the murder. Did the ISC in 2013 have "sex on the brain"? Everyone else had long since moved on from Mignini's slutty, early theory.

You have also seemed to have disavowed the 100s of guilters - now strangely silent - who thought the key to this case was examining the sex life of a young, college aged American who went to Europe and sowed some wild oats in the process..... (if that were true, there must be millions of unsolved murders across the continent!)

There have been some posts which have been real howlers, but the one above is perhaps the best of all!

For the record, it was Amanda who was the first to assert it was a sex crime. Nobody forced her to accuse Patrick of rape, not did anyone make her claim she took Patrick to the cottage for sex with Mez.

Given the nature of the despicable crime, there was clearly sexual abuse involved. Amanda had written lurid stories fantasising about the rape of women and supports a rapist jailed for less than six months because she believes it's the victim's fault.
 
For the record, it was Amanda who was the first to assert it was a sex crime. Nobody forced her to accuse Patrick of rape, not did anyone make her claim she took Patrick to the cottage for sex with Mez.

Given the nature of the despicable crime, there was clearly sexual abuse involved. Amanda had written lurid stories fantasising about the rape of women and supports a rapist jailed for less than six months because she believes it's the victim's fault.

This obsession with Amanda Knox has blinded you to the obvious.

The first to assert this was a sex-crime were the medical people who attended on Nov 2 - without forensic-contamination countermeasures - and examined the body.

Aside from this, you simply fall back on canards; fresh from accusing others that they were obsessed about sex!

This obsession with Amanda Knox has blinded you to the obvious.
 
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