Who killed Meredith Kercher? part 23

[Mike1711]

Once again, you betray your ignorance. The facts, as found by the trial courts, stand.
I dare say 'could be considered' is some kind of spin in the translation. In any case, it doesn't change the thrust of what Marasca says.

You keep claiming you only understand words in their literal face value. For example, you keep asserting that, for example, someone saying 'Bye, then' would cause you Big Heap Confusion were I to tell you they said goodbye.

In other words, I should avoid reading complex legal documents if phrases such as 'it would appear', 'it is understood', 'it seems to the court' or 'it could be considered' trick you into believing they negate whatever follows.

However, I'll translate, 'It could be considered Amanda covered up for Rudy" means roughly 'Amanda covered up for Rudy' and most definitely does NOT mean 'Amanda did not cover up for Rudy'.

There is sound scientific forensic evidence Amanda washed off Mez blood: you don't think Marasca plucked it out of thin air?

Fact is her epithilial (_sp?) cells which gave rise to her DNA being found mixed in with Mez in the sink is due to the rubbing action of her hands. When Prof Conti claims DNA flies around willy nilly, - except for Rudy - he is taking you for a ride.

That's because it is written into Italian Law that lower court judicial facts are not within the mandate of appeal. I have explained this to you on numerous occasions. Even if the Appeal Court disagrees 100 percent with the lower court "facts" it is beyond their scope to review them, much less reverse them.

Of course AK DNA was in the sink. It may shock you to learn this, but she used the sink for weeks before the murder. It would be more incredible were it that her DNA was NOT found in the sink. Whatever blood drips into the sink by whatever means will wind up mixing with that DNA. Now that is the logic that is Occam's Razor.

 

[Mike1711]

You can repeat it as often as you like. It is a fact set in stone that 'Amanda washed off Mez' blood from her hands'.

Is the fact that "Galileo was wrong" also cast in stone? He even apologized for being "wrong". What greater way to prove a "legal fact" than to declare it so AND to have the guilty party confess his error!

 

[Bill Williams]

Is the fact that "Galileo was wrong" also cast in stone? He even apologized for being "wrong". What greater way to prove a "legal fact" than to declare it so AND to have the guilty party confess his error!

The most laughable part of Vixen's rationale is that she quotes the final Supreme Court as Gospel on some stuff, but calls it a travesty of justice on others.

The key - Vixen decides which is which on the basis of her pre-existing biases....... is that a coincidence?

 

[Methos]

[...]
The problem we are facing when it comes to this case, is clear after reading Mr Kercher's book and the preview of what Mr Maresca will publish next week. It looks like Mr Maresca was polite enough not to bother the grieving family with facts, only informing them, if it was absolutely necessary. That part of the preview of Maresca's upcoming book answer's the question why Mr John Kercher listed TJMK as a "vital source" in his book... To me it looks like that Mr Maresca's failure to inform their clients is the reason that Meredith's family is denied the closure they so desperately want.[...]

It's interesting that you didn't bother to adress the highlighted part... It's like you are willing to discuss the plate instead of the meal or the frame instead of the picture.
[...]

I should think it self evident that TJMK is a reliable and trustworthy source.

You are missing the point, this wasn't about the relability or trustworthiness of TJMK.
This was about the Kercher family, despite having their - paid for - attorneys at the scene in the courtroom, having to rely on a website for "vital information". Shouldn't their lawyers have been the ones to inform them.

A sidenote on the "relability or trustworthiness of TJMK":
This one is from TJMK, dated Oct. 26, 2016:
Netflixhoax: Omitted - Any Mention Of Big Red Flag In Forced Closing Of Vecchiotti’s Laboratory

The "TJMK Main Posters" (whoever they are) are stating that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed in March 2015, citing a bunch of translated Italian news articles claiming that "The Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University in Rome was closed". Prof. Vecchiotti works at that department of the Sapienza University.

Taking a closer look reveals that it was the morgue located in the Piazzale di Verano...

(Picture is from one of the articles TJMK brought up)

...that was closed and not the entire "Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University" as this article from the La Repubblica confirms:
Obitorio della Sapienza chiuso, indagati Frati e il dg Alessio

"Obitorio" is the Italian word for "morgue".

One still might suggest from the info on TJMK that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed because it was in the same location.

But no, Prof. Vecchiotti's lab is located at Viale Regina Elena 336 in Rome as it was mentioned in the Conti-Vecchiotti Report and Prof. Vecciotti's CV.

So you might want to excuse me, when I'm not taking things written on TJMK at face value...

 

[Welshman]

You are missing the point, this wasn't about the relability or trustworthiness of TJMK.
This was about the Kercher family, despite having their - paid for - attorneys at the scene in the courtroom, having to rely on a website for "vital information". Shouldn't their lawyers have been the ones to inform them.

A sidenote on the "relability or trustworthiness of TJMK":
This one is from TJMK, dated Oct. 26, 2016:
Netflixhoax: Omitted - Any Mention Of Big Red Flag In Forced Closing Of Vecchiotti’s Laboratory

The "TJMK Main Posters" (whoever they are) are stating that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed in March 2015, citing a bunch of translated Italian news articles claiming that "The Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University in Rome was closed". Prof. Vecchiotti works at that department of the Sapienza University.

Taking a closer look reveals that it was the morgue located in the Piazzale di Verano...
[qimg]http://roma.corriere.it/methode_image/2015/03/01/Roma/Foto%20Roma/ob-593x443.jpg[/qimg]
(Picture is from one of the articles TJMK brought up)

...that was closed and not the entire "Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University" as this article from the La Repubblica confirms:
Obitorio della Sapienza chiuso, indagati Frati e il dg Alessio

"Obitorio" is the Italian word for "morgue".

One still might suggest from the info on TJMK that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed because it was in the same location.

But no, Prof. Vecchiotti's lab is located at Viale Regina Elena 336 in Rome as it was mentioned in the Conti-Vecchiotti Report and Prof. Vecciotti's CV.

So you might want to excuse me, when I'm not taking things written on TJMK at face value...

I have made the point previously that Vixen and other PGP attack Amanda for lying whilst lying and supporting the lies of others. This article from TJMK is yet another example of this. If C&V were so incompetent as Vixen and Machiavelli constantly claim, why does TJMK have to resort to lying to make C&V appear incompetent?

 

[Vixen]

This has to be parody, surely!! On the off-chance that it's not parody, it most certainly takes the "Baghdad Bob Memorial Award" for the most patently ridiculous statement of the month (and the month is only three days old!). Either way, congratulations are in order

<fx totters up to the stage on six inch heels, figure hugging white evening dress, chihuauhua under arm, flashlights, receives award from a boyish Sir Cliff Richard >

Zank you, Zank you. <fx flickers double false eyelashes> I am most honoured to receive zees award tonight. I want to thank my production team, ze directors, my supporting acts. <fx Mwah! Mwah!> love ya’ all, < fx: standing ovation, from evening attired Hollywood crowd, orchestra strikes up a few notes, begins duet with Sir Cliff>

The yu-uu-uung ones, dahlink we’re ze yu-uung ones, and ze yu-uung ones, shouldn’t be afraaaaid, to liiive, life, while ze years are young, for we may not be ze young ones very lo-oong <fx attendees wave arms above air, Bruno Mars joins the stage….> Once in every lifetime… <fx bouquets are thrown on the stage by adoring fans, Selma choir joins stage with Whoopie Goldberg leading 'Oh Happy Day! Chihuhua breaks free, nips a few ankles, stumbles down steps, cut to commercial break>

 

[Stacyhs]

::

No they didn't they said I was the standard.

Contrary to LondonJohn's extravagant claim that you and he are the beacon of rationality, I find your method of sophist discourse to be the antithesis of reasonableness. It is a mere play on words to claim Carr is hard done by and you have not explained in which way the UK has failed to integrate the likes of Bell, Thompson and Carr back into society after serving their time.

Therefore, I am out. You can have the last word.

LJ never said any such thing. But I will accept your white flag of surrender which is what you are flying, Baghdad Bob. Don't worry. I won't demand reparations.

 

[toto]

<fx totters up to the stage on six inch heels, figure hugging white evening dress, chihuauhua under arm, flashlights, receives award from a boyish Sir Cliff Richard >

Zank you, Zank you. <fx flickers double false eyelashes> I am most honoured to receive zees award tonight. I want to thank my production team, ze directors, my supporting acts. <fx Mwah! Mwah!> love ya’ all, < fx: standing ovation, from evening attired Hollywood crowd, orchestra strikes up a few notes, begins duet with Sir Cliff>

The yu-uu-uung ones, dahlink we’re ze yu-uung ones, and ze yu-uung ones, shouldn’t be afraaaaid, to liiive, life, while ze years are young, for we may not be ze young ones very lo-oong <fx attendees wave arms above air, Bruno Mars joins the stage….> Once in every lifetime… <fx bouquets are thrown on the stage by adoring fans, Selma choir joins stage with Whoopie Goldberg leading 'Oh Happy Day! Chihuhua breaks free, nips a few ankles, stumbles down steps, cut to commercial break>

Fx means "effects"; you mean stage directions, or film script directions, which would be shown by italicised text, perhaps indented into the main body.

 

[Bill Williams]

Fx means "effects"; you mean stage directions, or film script directions, which would be shown by italicised text, perhaps indented into the main body.

Emptor Caveat.

 

[Mary_H]

That's because it is written into Italian Law that lower court judicial facts are not within the mandate of appeal. I have explained this to you on numerous occasions. Even if the Appeal Court disagrees 100 percent with the lower court "facts" it is beyond their scope to review them, much less reverse them.

Of course AK DNA was in the sink. It may shock you to learn this, but she used the sink for weeks before the murder. It would be more incredible were it that her DNA was NOT found in the sink. Whatever blood drips into the sink by whatever means will wind up mixing with that DNA. Now that is the logic that is Occam's Razor.

The appellate (lower) courts are allowed to examine facts (evidence) as well as law:

Appello (appeal): for almost all courts in Italy (except very minor cases), it is possible to appeal the ruling, both for disagreement on how the court appreciated the facts or on disagreements with how the court interpreted the law.

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal a decision from the Corte d'Assise to the Corte d'Assise d'Appello. The Corte d'Assise d'Appello has the same composition of judges and lay judges as the Corte d'Assise, but the Giudici Togati are senior relative to the judges in the first court. The Corte d'Assise d'Appello must also publish written explanations of its decisions. This appeal includes a complete review of the evidence – in effect a retrial.

It is only the Court of Cassazione that does not review the evidence as well as the application of the law.

Thus, in Vixen's example (the purported hand-washing), Massei wrote that the court believed that circumstantial evidence supported the claim that Amanda washed her hands of Meredith's blood. Then Hellman wrote there was no way that could be determined, because the girls shared the bathroom and the evidence was all collected in one swipe. Then Nencini wrote that Amanda certainly DID wash her hands of Meredith's blood. Ultimately, Cassazione wrote that the mixed traces determined nothing other than that the girls shared the bathroom.

The irony in Vixen's assertions is that while it looks like Nencini and Cassazione disagreed with Massei, the Massei report also stated (just as did Hellmann and Cassazione):

[301] While it is not possible to use the genetic scientific data (Dr. Stefanoni explained the impossibility of determining the date, the succession or the simultaneity in the depositing of the components of the mixed trace specimen and the impossibility of attributing the haematological component to one or the other of the contributors), the information previously put forward provides answers which are entirely consistent with the circumstantial evidence that has emerged and which the Court considers convincing.

Basically, Massei ignored the input of the expert (Stefanoni), just as he did regarding the question of whether more than one individual committed the murder (only in that case it was seven experts). So if Vixen wants to go ahead with her "set in stone" approach, she has to decide which part of Massei was set in stone, as well as explain why none of Hellmann's ruling was set in stone when Nencini disagreed with it.

 

[Vixen]

You are missing the point, this wasn't about the relability or trustworthiness of TJMK.
This was about the Kercher family, despite having their - paid for - attorneys at the scene in the courtroom, having to rely on a website for "vital information". Shouldn't their lawyers have been the ones to inform them.

A sidenote on the "relability or trustworthiness of TJMK":
This one is from TJMK, dated Oct. 26, 2016:
Netflixhoax: Omitted - Any Mention Of Big Red Flag In Forced Closing Of Vecchiotti’s Laboratory

The "TJMK Main Posters" (whoever they are) are stating that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed in March 2015, citing a bunch of translated Italian news articles claiming that "The Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University in Rome was closed". Prof. Vecchiotti works at that department of the Sapienza University.

Taking a closer look reveals that it was the morgue located in the Piazzale di Verano...
[qimg]http://roma.corriere.it/methode_image/2015/03/01/Roma/Foto%20Roma/ob-593x443.jpg[/qimg]
(Picture is from one of the articles TJMK brought up)

...that was closed and not the entire "Medico-Legal Institute of Sapienza University" as this article from the La Repubblica confirms:
Obitorio della Sapienza chiuso, indagati Frati e il dg Alessio

"Obitorio" is the Italian word for "morgue".

One still might suggest from the info on TJMK that Prof. Vecchiotti's lab was closed because it was in the same location.

But no, Prof. Vecchiotti's lab is located at Viale Regina Elena 336 in Rome as it was mentioned in the Conti-Vecchiotti Report and Prof. Vecciotti's CV.

So you might want to excuse me, when I'm not taking things written on TJMK at face value...

This is the obitorio that was closed down, together with the pics of the cadavers lining the corridors. The police laughed at Vecchiotti in court because there she was falsely claiming Stefanoni's labs were contaminated - and in the netflix - quite falsely - because she herself did not even have a thermometer in her forensic lab fridge! Compare and contrast the lovely Rome Scientific Police buildings to that of Vecchiotti and Conti.

 

[Vixen]

Is the fact that "Galileo was wrong" also cast in stone? He even apologized for being "wrong". What greater way to prove a "legal fact" than to declare it so AND to have the guilty party confess his error!

If you are a lawyer, then the rule of law is what you look at. Our PM Theresa May tried to circumvent our constitution citing 'Royal prerogative'. It took three High Court judges to say,'Whoa! Hang on, we do things via parliament here. That's the rule of law.'


Now we have all the hack tabloids (the owners of whom are registered non-domesics for the avoidance of UK tax [the proprietor of the DAILY MAIL] whining about these judges being 'the Enemies of the People', and 'the man in the street' spouting the opinion, 'Oh doing it properly is only going to slow it down, as we are brexiting any way.'

Whilst I am sure the DAILY MAIL understands the point perfectly, all this stuff about, 'let the government bypass the constitution' just shows how woefully ignorant people are in how the law operates.


In Galileo's day there was a law which said it was Heresy to say the world was round (or whatever). Therefore, his saying it was round, broke the law.

 

[Vixen]

Massei and Nencini were overturned. Perhaps you should put that on a sticky note and paste it to your monitor.

Only the verdicts were overturned and the knife and bra DNA evidence dismissed.

Do try harder.

 

[LondonJohn]

You're still not getting it are you, Vixen. The photos shown there are NOT of Vecchiotti's workplace, nor are they of any workplace over which she had jurisdiction. Those photos are of the morgue of the hospital that's attached to La Sapienza (in the same way as UCH is not the same as UCL - the place which didn't run those "creative writing for a pay-and-play turn-up fee" courses ). Vecchiotti did not, and does not, work for the morgue. She worked/works for the university.

(The fact that one of those photos has mendaciously and incorrectly been captioned "Vecchiotti lab" by one of the pro-guilt nutter websites is, of course, not worth the paper it's written on. It's not a photo of Vecchiotti's lab.)

 

[Vixen]

But that takes all the fun out of it . . . . .


It, also, means that Hellmann was the only other judge who got it right: Mattini, Michelli, Massei, Chieffi, Nencini were all wrong. Bad wrong.

Hellmann (expunged) and Marasca were the only ones to get it right out of 35 judges who upheld clear guilt?


Think about it and take a reality check.

 

[LondonJohn]

Only the verdicts were overturned and the knife and bra DNA evidence dismissed.

Do try harder.

So all that was left was the evidence/testimony entered into those courts. Nothing else remained. Nothing.

Do try harder.

 

[LondonJohn]

Hellmann (expunged) and Marasca were the only ones to get it right out of 35 judges who upheld clear guilt?


Think about it and take a reality check.

Yep. The panel of Italian Supreme Court judges (finally) got it right. They are, as it happens, the highest judges in the land. Their opinion utterly supersedes and defeats every other judicial ruling from lower judges. It's really not difficult to understand to one blessed with intellect and objectivity...........

 

[Numbers]

...

It is only the Court of Cassazione that does not review the evidence as well as the application of the law.
....

This point requires some clarification.

The CSC is authorized by Italian law to review the grounds of a judgment when an appeal claims those grounds are lacking, contradictory or manifestly illogical, when the defect is to be found in the appealed decision on any document of the proceedings - including the documentation of the evidence. (CPP Article 606.1E) Thus, in reviewing a decision, the CSC may consider the logic of its generation, including the validity of its premises - that is, the evidence as it was documented by the lower court.

 

[Mary_H]

This point requires some clarification.

The CSC is authorized by Italian law to review the grounds of a judgment when an appeal claims those grounds are lacking, contradictory or manifestly illogical, when the defect is to be found in the appealed decision on any document of the proceedings - including the documentation of the evidence. (CPP Article 606.1E) Thus, in reviewing a decision, the CSC may consider the logic of its generation, including the validity of its premises - that is, the evidence as it was documented by the lower court.

That's awesome. Thanks, Numbers.

 

[Vixen]

If the "legal facts" described in motivation reports are "set in stone," then there would be no reason to have a three-phase trial process, in which the second trial is a retrial of the first. There also would be no way of correcting errors that all subsequent judges agree are errors.

Italian judges acknowledge that court decisions and rulings are based on their beliefs, opinions, and considerations (words they use repeatedly throughout motivation reports), not on rigidity and infallibility.

There is a difference between facts found by a court and the legal interpretation thereof. This is what a judge does, and it is called a 'decision'. A judge is paid to come to a decision. The finding will be in favour of one party or the other.


It is the legal decisions that are appealed against, and you can only appeal on a point of law (and in rare cases, perversity, public interest and 'new evidence' which was not available as of the time of the trial). In Italy these 'legal points' are subdivided into five or six broad categories, the most frequent being the judgment (decision) 'lacks internal consistency'.


So, Amanda and Raff were arguing just because the court found she was there, didn't mean he was, etcetera; a logical inconsistency in the reasoning. The fact still remains that a fact was found that Amanda definitely was there, definitely did wash off Mez' blood from her hands and her motive for naming Patrick was adjudged to be her covering up for Rudy. Her calumny was already res judicata.

Marasca upheld that given these facts, there was 'insufficient evidence' for a 'guilty' verdict, having dismissed the knife DNA and bra clasp DNA.

Facts are 'cast in stone' insofar an appeal court does not remit the issue back to the lower courts to try the fact listed as an issue again.