JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[MicahJava]

Bullets move faster than the speed of sound. Even slow ones.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Is that supposed to be an intellectual response? Or are you not bothering to try?

 

[Tomtomkent]

So which part of this evidence are we supposed to be impressed by?

A guy not hearing, or at least not remembering hearing, a bullet?

Or the astounding revelation that the vast trauma wave that caused massive ejecta may have caused cracks that reached the bottom of the skull?

Why are CT advocates still doing this the wrong way around and scrabbling for any nugget of evidence they hope might spin just enough to give the illusion of a second shooter in the gaps.

Here's an amazing idea nobody will take up. Why not suggest a fully formed their of who did the shooting and how, a comprehensive timeline that us sceptics than then question and test to see if the evidence passes scrutiny?

Why not start by stating what you want to prove, so it can be said for sure if the evidence actually supports, let alone proves, the narrative?

 

[Axxman300]

I have also talked about the possibility of a subsonic bullet entering low in Kennedy's head, causing a fragment to strongly deflect within the body and exit out of the throat and go on to pass through Connally. Subsonic, of course, meaning that some effort to suppress the noise was probably used. Connolly mentioned several times that he didn't hear the shot that hit him.

There is ZERO possibility of a subsonic round striking JFK. The damage doesn't support it in any way. The damage to both JFK and Connally is consistent with the Carcano round, almost exclusively.

And no, Connally wouldn't have heard the shot that hit him because it was supersonic. By the time the sound would have reached him he was busy bleeding, people were screaming, and my guess is that after the President's head exploded and showered everyone with brains the resulting mental shock combined with the physical shock of being shot would make Connally's memories of those moments unreliable.

It's all on film. The President and the Governor only get struck by two bullets, both from behind.

 

[Tolls]

Connolly mentioned several times that he didn't hear the shot that hit him.

There's a reason for the phrase "you never hear the one that hits you".
Do you know what it might be?

 

[HSienzant]

According to a 1977 HSCA report, Dr. Burkley said "the doctors didn't section the brain and if it had been done, it might be able to prove whether or not there were two bullets. Dr. Burkley thinks there was one but concedes of the possibility of there having been two..."

(source)

HSCA (sic - Burkley) even wrote an affidavit to the HSCA along with his statement, stating:

"Had the Warren Commission deemed to call me, I would have stated why I retained the brain and the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated."

http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Autopsy/BURKLEY.TXT.

Sigh.

I've snipped the vast portion of your response because it deals with recollections from the mid-1990's, three decades after the assassination.

I gather you still haven't read anything by Elizabeth Loftus on memory, and the fallibility of the human mind. I recommended it before, I recommend it now.

Those recollections are valueless. Quoting them, and trying to solve the assassination via that route will never get you closer to the truth. The truth is in the evidence collected in the first 48 hours, and the testimony of the witnesses and experts as they testified in the first nine months following the assassination.

Per the above which I did quote, it deals with two separate reports, a hearsay report of an interview written by Tom Purdy, which says Burkley admitted to the possibility of two bullets to the brain, and an affidavit by Burkley himself, which eliminates the possibility of two bullets to the brain (he wrote, if he had testified to the WC, "the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated". Both these reports are from the late 1970's, to the HSCA.

I know which one I would give greater credence to. The affidavit signed by Dr. Burkley. Why do you post and credit the contradictory summary of an interview with Burkley by Andrew Purdy?

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

There is ZERO possibility of a subsonic round striking JFK. The damage doesn't support it in any way. The damage to both JFK and Connally is consistent with the Carcano round, almost exclusively.

The evidence seems to support a subsonic missile striking the EOP from behind.

And no, Connally wouldn't have heard the shot that hit him because it was supersonic. By the time the sound would have reached him he was busy bleeding, people were screaming, and my guess is that after the President's head exploded and showered everyone with brains the resulting mental shock combined with the physical shock of being shot would make Connally's memories of those moments unreliable.

It's all on film. The President and the Governor only get struck by two bullets, both from behind.

Connally, as well as nearly other witness, described the first loud shot as coming just before the one that hit him, and places his as occurring at around Z190-230. Probably nothing happened before Z190.

 

[MicahJava]

Sigh.

I've snipped the vast portion of your response because it deals with recollections from the mid-1990's, three decades after the assassination.

I gather you still haven't read anything by Elizabeth Loftus on memory, and the fallibility of the human mind. I recommended it before, I recommend it now.

Those recollections are valueless. Quoting them, and trying to solve the assassination via that route will never get you closer to the truth. The truth is in the evidence collected in the first 48 hours, and the testimony of the witnesses and experts as they testified in the first nine months following the assassination.

Per the above which I did quote, it deals with two separate reports, a hearsay report of an interview written by Tom Purdy, which says Burkley admitted to the possibility of two bullets to the brain, and an affidavit by Burkley himself, which eliminates the possibility of two bullets to the brain (he wrote, if he had testified to the WC, "the possibility of two bullets having wounded President John F. Kennedy's brain would have been eliminated". Both these reports are from the late 1970's, to the HSCA.

I know which one I would give greater credence to. The affidavit signed by Dr. Burkley. Why do you post and credit the contradictory summary of an interview with Burkley by Andrew Purdy?

Hank

Burkley is saying that the possibility of two head shots could not be eliminated. Burkley thought that it was a conspiracy.

 

[HSienzant]

The lack of any shot before Z190-2222 is a major issue, because it concerns a lot of crucial issues. First, Oswald's rifle wasn't sighted-in, so it would probably be impossible to hit with the first shot. Second, Most witnesses say that the lack two shots were close together. Third, Connally always swore he was hit shortly after the first loud report.

Connally marked on the Zapruder film where he thought he was hit. It was frame 231. He does indeed show signs in the film that he is reacting to something after the 224-230 reactions after the lapel flap, as if he has just realized what has happened. His early statements have also consistently said that he was hit very shortly after Kennedy.

That's funny, because the man you quote a lot, including above (John Connally), testified the shooting lasted 10 to 12 seconds and comprised three shots. You believe the third shots was at or near Zapruder frame 313, do you not? You also believe that John Connally testified he heard only two of the three shots, the first one, and the last one, which hit the President in the head, correct?

Working backward, that puts the first shot (since Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames per second), 183 frames before the head shot at a minimum (10 x 18.3 = 183).

Now, when I do the math, that means John Connally's testimony puts the first shot at Z313 minus 183 frames, or frame Z130 at the latest. If we use his 12 seconds estimate, we get, from the Governor's testimony, another 36 or 37 frames earlier for the first shot, or roughly frame Z93 or Z94.

That's what I get working from the Governor's testimony.

So I'm unclear why you think there's no evidence from the eyewitnesses for a shot before Z190.

I've mentioned this point a few times, you've never shown where the math is wrong or where I'm taking anything out of context. You've never addressed my point whatsoever. Since you have quoted John Connally's recollections as supportive of your arguments in the past, I am curious whether you think John Connally's recollections here are of any value, and if not, why not.

I've asked in the past for a citation to a precise quote for the bolded statement above, but you never provided that either.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

That's funny, because the man you quote a lot, including above (John Connally), testified the shooting lasted 10 to 12 seconds and comprised three shots. You believe the third shots was at or near Zapruder frame 313, do you not? You also believe that John Connally testified he heard only two of the three shots, the first one, and the last one, which hit the President in the head, correct?

Working backward, that puts the first shot (since Zapruder's camera ran at 18.3 frames per second), 183 frames before the head shot at a minimum (10 x 18.3 = 183).

Now, when I do the math, that means John Connally's testimony puts the first shot at Z313 minus 183 frames, or frame Z130 at the latest. If we use his 12 seconds estimate, we get, from the Governor's testimony, another 36 or 37 frames earlier for the first shot, or roughly frame Z93 or Z94.

That's what I get working from the Governor's testimony.

So I'm unclear why you think there's no evidence from the eyewitnesses for a shot before Z190.

I've mentioned this point a few times, you've never shown where the math is wrong or where I'm taking anything out of context. You've never addressed my point whatsoever. Since you have quoted John Connally's recollections as supportive of your arguments in the past, I am curious whether you think John Connally's recollections here are of any value, and if not, why not.

I've asked in the past for a citation to a precise quote for the bolded statement above, but you never provided that either.

Hank

That's an odd way to insinuate that Connally thought all three shots were spaced out. He didn't, he always said the first two shots were close together and that he didn't hear the shot that hit him. He thought that it was automatic rifle fire. From z190-z313+, the shooting could've been about 10 seconds.

 

[HSienzant]

Connally, as well as nearly other witness, described the first loud shot as coming just before the one that hit him, and places his as occurring at around Z190-230. Probably nothing happened before Z190.

Citation for the bolded claim above?

Most witnesses didn't even realize the Governor was struck. You're going to have a hard time establishing that the first shot came "just before the one that hit him" (Connally), from the witness statements.

Good luck with that.

You are pretty much stuck with the Governor's statements and that of his wife.

You're also arguing at cross purposes now. You're arguing the first and second were close together above, and you've previously argued the last two were closer together.

So which is it? The vast majority of the witnesses said they heard three shots. You can't put the middle one closer to both the first shot AND the last shot.

They were either roughly equally spaced, the first two were closer together, or the last two were closer together.

Choose one.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Citation for the bolded claim above?

Most witnesses didn't even realize the Governor was struck. You're going to have a hard time establishing that the first shot came "just before the one that hit him" (Connally), from the witness statements.

Good luck with that.

You are pretty much stuck with the Governor's statements and that of his wife.

You're also arguing at cross purposes now. You're arguing the first and second were close together above, and you've previously argued the last two were closer together.

So which is it? The vast majority of the witnesses said they heard three shots. You can't put the middle one closer to both the first shot AND the last shot.

They were either roughly equally spaced, the first two were closer together, or the last two were closer together.

Choose one.

Hank

The witnesses indicate that the first loud shot was around 190-224.

 

[HSienzant]

That's an odd way to insinuate that Connally thought all three shots were spaced out. He didn't, he always said the first two shots were close together and that he didn't hear the shot that hit him. He thought that it was automatic rifle fire. From z190-z313+, the shooting could've been about 10 seconds.

Citation requested once again for the bolded statement.

From Z190, I get Z190 + 183 or Z373 for the last shot at the earliest. If we use his 12 second time estimate, we get Z373 + 36 or 37 frames, or Z409 or Z410. But that doesn't conform to the Governor's testimony that the head shot was the last of three shots. And the head shot was at Z313. More than five seconds before the end of the time-frame you're ignoring.

You're now contradicting the Governor's own testimony.

Where did the Governor testify to a shot after 313?

He didn't. Your arguing for one after Z313, "Z313+", means you're saying the Governor was wrong in some of his testimony.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Citation requested once again for the bolded statement.

From Z190, I get Z190 + 183 or Z373 for the last shot at the earliest. If we use his 12 second time estimate, we get Z373 + 36 or 37 frames, or Z409 or Z410. But that doesn't conform to the Governor's testimony that the head shot was the last of three shots. And the head shot was at Z313. More than five seconds before the end of the time-frame you're ignoring.

You're now contradicting the Governor's own testimony.

Hank

Connally placed Kennedy being hit at z190, and him being at at z231. The last two loud shots may have been so close together that they blended into one in his mind.

 

[HSienzant]

The witnesses indicate that the first loud shot was around 190-224.

You've said that before, but never cited for it. You also ignored my other points. I suggest you try again.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Connally placed Kennedy being hit at z190, and him being at at z231. The last two loud shots may have been so close together that they blended into one in his mind.

Citation for the bolded?

So we're back to the last two being closest together?

And how do two shots at Z313 and, say, Z323, equal ten to twelve seconds from Z190?

And if Connally's recollection on the number of shots couldn't be trusted, why are you citing his recollection on the timing of the shots?

Or are you now arguing the vast majority of the witnesses that heard three shots were all wrong, and there were more than three?

You got some explaining to do.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

You've said that before, but never cited for it. You also ignored my other points. I suggest you try again.

Hank

Read these generous samplings of witnesses:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5:thejigsawpuzzle
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter5b:primarypieces
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter6:piecesontheroad
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7:morepiecesofthepuzzle
http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter8:therestofthepuzzle
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9:piecingittogether
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9b:reclaiminghistoryfromreclaimin2

Citation for the bolded?

So we're back to the last two being closest together?

And how do two shots at Z313 and, say, Z323, equal ten to twelve seconds from Z190?

And if Connally's recollection on the number of shots couldn't be trusted, why are you citing his recollection on the timing of the shots?

You got some explaining to do.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Olson Beverly/Item 09.pdf

page 13

 

[traxy]

There is a difference between being hit and being hit while hearing the shot that hit you. The "right turn" he was talking about is probably the 224-230+ reactions. Just look at all of the other witnesses who saw the Limo and reported seeing basically the same thing, always describing the first shot at around 190-224.

I have also talked about the possibility of a subsonic bullet entering low in Kennedy's head, causing a fragment to strongly deflect within the body and exit out of the throat and go on to pass through Connally. Subsonic, of course, meaning that some effort to suppress the noise was probably used. Connolly mentioned several times that he didn't hear the shot that hit him.

Pay attention to the key words in your post.

 

[traxy]

Connally placed Kennedy being hit at z190, and him being at at z231. The last two loud shots may have been so close together that they blended into one in his mind.

2 follow up questions.

1) When did Connally specifically say that?

2) How would Connally know when Kennedy was hit?

 

[MicahJava]

Pay attention to the key words in your post.

Do you have semantics BS or a refutation for 2 head shots? We know that there was damage in the base of the skull, and in the neck area above the throat wound. We know that a lot of people who saw the body at least thought maybe there were two head shots, and that the throat wound could be an exit of a bullet or a fragment from a bullet that hit the head.

2 follow up questions.

1) When did Connally specifically say that?

2) How would Connally know when Kennedy was hit?

He saw it on videotape and pointed to exactly where he thinks both of them were hit.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/O Disk/Olson Beverly/Item 09.pdf

page 13