Indyref 2: This time it's personal.

[Strawberry]

Not prepared to engage in any more debate here, but remarking in passing that the rabid "England vs Scotland" rhetoric is still front and centre for the nationalists here (and, indeed, many of the more vocal, extreme nationalists in general). Perhaps if/when they came to realise it's nothing whatsoever to do with "England" vs Scotland, and instead everything to do with The United Kingdom and Scotland's position in the UK, they might realise just how distasteful and vindictive (and, noticeably, anti-English) so much of their rhetoric is. Of course, it's a fanciful suggestion that they will ever come to see this, of course, otherwise they'd have seen it long ago.

O Flower of Scotland,
When will we see
Your like again,
That fought and died for,
Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.


(And before the zealots go: "Oh but the National Anthem has a bit about crushing rebellious Scots! Nee nar nee nar!", I'd point out that a) that bit is in an appended verse that was last used in the 18th century, b) virtually nobody in the entire UK (save for some fervent Scots Nats, obviously) even knows that verse ever existed, c) the National Anthem is the national anthem of the whole of the United Kingdom, and d) it (that verse) is (obviously) not sung with relish and passion by entire football/rugby stadiums of national fans on a regular basis (.....unlike the words of the first verse of Flower of Scotland reproduced above, which contain explicit joyous references to defeating the (then-English) king in battle). Interesting, huh?!)

As ye were

You should see what some other countries national anthems say about you. The only reason you know what the Scots are singing is because they sing it in English, unlike some other countries in the vicinity.

 

[Lothian]

it (that verse) is (obviously) not sung with relish and passion by entire football/rugby stadiums of national fans on a regular basis (

I am not sure the songs of English football fans are the best example of entente cordiale, but each to their own.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am not sure the songs of English football fans are the best example of entente cordiale, but each to their own.

Yes, but on the one hand there are unofficial chants sung by pockets of unpleasant hooligans (of all nationalities and regionalities), which should be condemned by all reasonable, right-thinking people, and on the other hand there are words to a song voted in as the official anthem to be sung at sports events. I'd say there's a substantial difference. YMMV, as I think the kids say.

 

[LondonJohn]

You should see what some other countries national anthems say about you. The only reason you know what the Scots are singing is because they sing it in English, unlike some other countries in the vicinity.

Can't think of any other countries (or groups who compete on an international level in sports events) whose official anthems talk of joy at inflicting harm on the English. Or British. But there you go. You might know of some that I haven't come across. Or you might not.

ETA: far less, regions who signed a union treaty with another region to form a country then insulting in their anthem that region with whom they've formed the union.......................

 

[Lothian]

Can't think of any other countries (or groups who compete on an international level in sports events) whose official anthems talk of joy at inflicting harm on the English. Or British. But there you go. You might know of some that I haven't come across. Or you might not.

I think many anthems celebrate the own nation and express joy at inflicting harm on others, for example

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Having been to many a rugby international match to consider singing the anthem reflects or instils hatred of the opposition is misplaced.

 

[LondonJohn]

I think many anthems celebrate the own nation and express joy at inflicting harm on others, for example

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall:
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix:
God save us all.

Having been to many a rugby international match to consider singing the anthem reflects or instils hatred of the opposition is misplaced.

Hmmm a little knavish of you to quote the second verse of the UK National Anthem, a) which is never ever sung at sporting events and rarely at all ever in any other context, b) the words to which I would be very confident in suggesting are only even known by a vanishingly small number of people in the UK/England, and c) which make no explicit (or even implicit) reference to any other country or region.

Interesting.

Also interesting that you feign unawareness of the clear zeal with which Scottish football (and, to a lesser extent, rugby) supporters deal with the "proud Edward's army" part of FoS (which is always, without exception, sung at such events and other occasions as part of Verse One of FoS) and/or that you suggest they don't know exactly what it refers to and what it means. To suggest otherwise is, I would put it to you, misleading (to put it mildly). But then I understand the underlying situation here, so I also understand the dynamic you wish to adopt. Interesting again. Lots of interesting things!

 

[Lothian]

Also interesting that you feign unawareness of the clear zeal with which Scottish football (and, to a lesser extent, rugby) supporters deal with the "proud Edward's army" part of FoS (which is always, without exception, sung at such events and other occasions as part of Verse One of FoS) and/or that you suggest they don't know exactly what it refers to and what it means. To suggest otherwise is, I would put it to you, misleading (to put it mildly). But then I understand the underlying situation here, so I also understand the dynamic you wish to adopt. Interesting again. Lots of interesting things!

Never been.

I believe it refers to the French speaking Welsh King of 800 years ago. As mentioned before it bears absolutely no relevance to the friendly atmosphere between rugby supporters and the way we are supposed to feel about each other today. If you think it does you might find it 'interesting' to spend some time at rugby clubs.

 

[LondonJohn]

Never been.

I believe it refers to the French speaking Welsh King of 800 years ago. As mentioned before it bears absolutely no relevance to the friendly atmosphere between rugby supporters and the way we are supposed to feel about each other today. If you think it does you might find it 'interesting' to spend some time at rugby clubs.

I have been to literally hundreds of club and international rugby matches, thanks. Why did you condescendingly presume I hadn't? I've been to probably six or seven international rugby matches involving Scotland as the opposing team (against three other international teams), and seen dozens and dozens more on TV, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that when Scotland play England that part of FoS is sung with deliberate gusto and full understanding. As I pointed out explicitly in my post, I feel that the phenomenon is exhibited to a significantly lesser extent at international rugby matches than international football matches (to which I've also been to many). One can posit several reasons as to why that might be. And for you to (seemingly) pretend that you are entirely unable to comment at what goes on at Scottish international football matches because you've "never been" is *ahem* interesting too. Can I infer from this that you also don't own or watch a TV or consume any news content in any format?

I'd also reiterate a point I made earlier, which is that (IMO of course) it's odd (to say the least) that two countries came together to form a friendly union some 300 years ago, and both then became regions of the new country (which persists in peace to this day, with a liberal democracy in place for at least the last 70-80 years).....then one of those regions elects, in the late 20th century, to choose as its anthem a song which refers in direct, explicit terms to the joy the people of that nation got when it beat the other nation (with whom it is now in union as part of a country) in a war that took place hundreds of years prior to the union taking place. But again YMMV.

But again, I know exactly what's going on here. The cognitive dissonance must be uncomfortable! Bye

 

[Lothian]

I have been to literally hundreds of club and international rugby matches, thanks. Why did you condescendingly presume I hadn't?

Because you seen to think that the lyrics the song Flower of Scotland instil a genuine hostile feeling towards the English. Seems like you enjoy being offended so look for it when it is not there.
Despite your goalpost shifting to only count the first verse, or was it only counting the 7th line of the first verse, we have established the English Anthem also wishes ill on the opponents.

That you are getting so upset about something as insignificant as an anthem makes me wonder if it is something else that is really bothering you. I am here if you need a friendly ear.

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, everyone, just to confound ignorant prejudices yet further, I'll point out that I'm not English by parentage - I'm half Welsh and half RoI. I have a UK passport. I do not consider myself "English". I consider myself British. I have lived in England for much, but not all, of my adult life. And I'm not a bigot

 

[Craig B]

So did the London electorate. I dare say streets or estates in your constituency voted for a candidate who did not get elected. You need to understand the the vote was for the UK to remain or leave not for houses, streets, towns, islands, cities, counties or countries to remain or stay. There are elections and votes all the time. You really should understand how they work.

You can omit the "please try to understand these simple ideas" stuff, Lothian. It doesn't work with me. God knows why I can never grasp these things.

Anyway that's not the issue here. The Scottish streets etc, voted for or against what? May is now hailing the complete changes to the thing people voted yes or no to in 2014.

... after Brexit the UK will be “a fully-independent, sovereign country” that will no longer be in the “jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice”, suggesting that Britain is preparing to leave the single market."​

a country, she says "in which we pass our own laws and govern ourselves."

So we have, it seems, voted to remain in union with a not-fully-independent, non-sovereign country, in which we do not pass laws and govern ourselves. But that is to change. Even if Scotland is of no more account than a handful of streets, so that we must say

Fareweel to a' our Scottish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel ev'n to the Scottish name ...​

nonetheless we have to know what we are to remain part of: and that is changing, or so we are told. By the way, if the Unionists think this country Scotland is of no more account than random "streets or estates" they are clever (and dishonest) enough not to tell us so. Please therefore instruct them in your lore, so that unlike me "they will understand". Then they can tell the voters what they really think of our country, and a pro-Indy vote will be a certainty!

 

[LondonJohn]

Because you seen to think that the lyrics the song Flower of Scotland instil a genuine hostile feeling towards the English.

You ignored the words "to a lesser extent" then.

No surprise.

 

[Strawberry]

By the way, everyone, just to confound ignorant prejudices yet further, I'll point out that I'm not English by parentage - I'm half Welsh and half RoI. I have a UK passport. I do not consider myself "English". I consider myself British. I have lived in England for much, but not all, of my adult life. And I'm not a bigot

So, that half of you that's Irish - do you think your own ancestors had no more right to leave the UK than Swindon or Liverpool, or do you operate a double standard between Ireland and Scotland?

 

[Craig B]

By the way, everyone, just to confound ignorant prejudices yet further, I'll point out that I'm not English by parentage - I'm half Welsh and half RoI. I have a UK passport. I do not consider myself "English". I consider myself British. I have lived in England for much, but not all, of my adult life. And I'm not a bigot

Why should these revelations confound anyone? Here is the national self identification made by people in England in the 2011 Census.

English identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was the most common identity respondents chose to associate with, at 37.6 million people (67.1 per cent). English as a sole identity (not combined with other identities), was chosen by 32.4 million people (57.7 per cent).
British identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was a common identity chosen by 16.3 million people (29.1 per cent). 10.7 million people (19.1 per cent) associated themselves with a British identity only)​

So you're in a clear minority, but not an insignificant one.

 

[Lothian]

You can omit the "please try to understand these simple ideas" stuff, Lothian. It doesn't work with me. God knows why I can never grasp these things.

Anyway that's not the issue here. The Scottish streets etc, voted for or against what?

I assumed you were talking about the Brexit vote but wonder if you actually meant the Indy referendum vote in which case my comment will not make much sense.

 

[ceptimus]

If Glasgow wants independence then so be it. That's a pointless hypothetical though. The one that is usually raised is shetland and its the same answer. If they go through a proper process then yes. Its their decision to make.

The same mechanism could be used to eject an undesirable part of your country - though it would mean changing your country's name.

For example, if Scots decide they don't like the Isle of Mull, then they could set up a referendum for every Scot except those living on Mull to vote for independence. If a majority voted in favour then, by your reasoning, they could form a new country leaving Mull as the only remnant of Scotland.

 

[LondonJohn]

So, that half of you that's Irish - do you think your own ancestors had no more right to leave the UK than Swindon or Liverpool, or do you operate a double standard between Ireland and Scotland?

Again, total and utter ignorance of my position (and some ugly mis-assumptions thrown in for good measure). So here, once again, is my position. Please try to remember it for the future. Here goes:

Ireland had the right to leave the UK, and Scotland will have the right to leave the UK, only when the UK (in the form of the UK national parliament) also deemed/deems that it is in the UK's best collective interests for those things to happen. Kapish?

Neither Ireland nor Scotland had/has the unequivocal unilateral right to leave the UK without the UK (in the form of the UK national parliament) agreeing that it was/is in the best interests of the UK for that to happen. OK?

A region of a sovereign state only has the right to secede from that sovereign state if and when the collective peoples of that sovereign state (usually in the form of the legislative assembly of that state) agree that it is in the best interests of the state for that to happen. The exception to this rule is if the region seeking secession has suffered disproportionate levels of tangible discrimination and/or denial of democratic rights from the parent state (things such as denial of, or significant restrictions upon, freedom of assembly or representation; denial of equal voting rights; disproportionate denial of state funds; deliberate and target depression of that region's economy; targeted military or law-enforcement activity by the parent state against that region and its peoples and so on). Under those circumstances, the International Court of Justice has established precedent that a region will usually be allowed, in international law, to declare independence unilaterally of the will of the parent state.

And, for the record, I personally believe it was in the best interests of the UK to grant RoI independence when it did (so, obviously, I agree with the decision of the parliament of the time - in fact I think it could and should have been done earlier). In addition, Ireland at the time could make a very reasonable case that it was suffering specific discrimination and denial of democratic rights as opposed to other regions of the UK. I therefore think the Irish UDI in 1919 would most likely have been allowable under (albeit modern-day) international law.

I do not feel it is presently in the best interests of the UK to grant Scottish independence (although my opinion on that might very well change as circumstances change - that's the way reasoned analysis in a changing world tends to work). If, however, the UK parliament (acting on behalf of me and every other UK citizen) believed tomorrow that it was in the UK's best interests to grant Scotland the right to independence from the UK, I would have total support for that decision, regardless of whether or not it clashes with my own personal assessment and opinion. Because, again, that's how representative democracy works.

By all means though, continue to create a straw man of my position. Everyone else here is. I guess it's fun and fulfilling to build up something extreme to attack. Go for it!

 

[Craig B]

... the National Anthem is the national anthem of the whole of the United Kingdom, and d) it (that verse) is (obviously) not sung with relish and passion by entire football/rugby stadiums of national fans on a regular basis (.....unlike the words of the first verse of Flower of Scotland reproduced above, which contain explicit joyous references to defeating the (then-English) king in battle). Interesting, huh?!)

As ye were

No part of the GSTQ anthem is sung with relish and passion by Scottish sports supporters, in my experience. (Flower of Scotland is drivel.) The national anthem of the Republic of Ireland, home of half your ancestors, is about ... I'll let you guess, but for sure you know already.

Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The long-watched day is breaking
The serried ranks of Inisfail
Shall set the tyrant quaking​

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Not prepared to engage in any more debate here, but remarking in passing that the rabid "England vs Scotland" rhetoric is still front and centre for the nationalists here (and, indeed, many of the more vocal, extreme nationalists in general). Perhaps if/when they came to realise it's nothing whatsoever to do with "England" vs Scotland, and instead everything to do with The United Kingdom and Scotland's position in the UK, they might realise just how distasteful and vindictive (and, noticeably, anti-English) so much of their rhetoric is. Of course, it's a fanciful suggestion that they will ever come to see this, of course, otherwise they'd have seen it long ago.

O Flower of Scotland,
When will we see
Your like again,
That fought and died for,
Your wee bit Hill and Glen,
And stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again.


(And before the zealots go: "Oh but the National Anthem has a bit about crushing rebellious Scots! Nee nar nee nar!", I'd point out that a) that bit is in an appended verse that was last used in the 18th century, b) virtually nobody in the entire UK (save for some fervent Scots Nats, obviously) even knows that verse ever existed, c) the National Anthem is the national anthem of the whole of the United Kingdom, and d) it (that verse) is (obviously) not sung with relish and passion by entire football/rugby stadiums of national fans on a regular basis (.....unlike the words of the first verse of Flower of Scotland reproduced above, which contain explicit joyous references to defeating the (then-English) king in battle). Interesting, huh?!)

As ye were

Utter garbage. Exits over there. Your anti scottish garbage can be left in the bins at the back.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I will let Darat clarify his comments. Of course a majority of the population deciding the outcome for a minority is not uncommon. MSPs from the whole of the Scotland decided to scrap the Skye Bridge toll. Congestion charges tend to be decided by the City rather than the congestion area.
The UK parliament will decide whether to expand Heathrow not the immediate neighbours.

Yes I know but I genuinely cant understand the argument as darat suggests hes not saying this.