Going to a psychic medium party

[kali1137]

It is findable, which is one reason I gave few specifics.

I am familiar with Harry because he came from Erie, PA which is quite close to me. I also read up on him again after seeing some of his stuff on display in a Magicians museum at Wonderworks. I am not at all familiar with this story and any attempts to locate it online have been unsuccessful. I guess I am not understanding why you choose to use an example that no one can read about?

 

[Garrette]

I am familiar with Harry because he came from Erie, PA which is quite close to me. I also read up on him again after seeing some of his stuff on display in a Magicians museum at Wonderworks. I am not at all familiar with this story and any attempts to locate it online have been unsuccessful. I guess I am not understanding why you choose to use an example that no one can read about?

I gave my reasons, though you can read about it if you find it. I found it online (and have it hard copy now, too). My reasons are exposure.

That being said, one is more than welcome to dismiss the Kellar story since I offer no source, but then to be consistent, one would have to also dismiss everything anyone has ever presented as proof of successful psychic readings or of mediumship.

 

[kali1137]

I generally do dismiss them. I have had no personal experiences that blew my mind and I have had many readings and been to Lilydale, NY several times. People can tell me all kinds of mind blowing details they were told, however, I have no way to verify anything or way to discern the tricks that might have been used. Until one of these mediums does something for me specifically that I cannot explain, I will consider it nothing but tricks.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I am familiar with Harry because he came from Erie, PA which is quite close to me. I also read up on him again after seeing some of his stuff on display in a Magicians museum at Wonderworks. I am not at all familiar with this story and any attempts to locate it online have been unsuccessful. I guess I am not understanding why you choose to use an example that no one can read about?

You're looking for A Magician Amonst The Spirits by Harry Houdini, page 224:

He had met in Hong Kong a troupe of travelling players, known as the "Loftus Troupe" which was featuring Jefferson De Angelus. Among these players was one, Jim Mass, who, during a discussion of Spiritualism scoffed at anyone's belief in it. Kellar told him to visit his hotel the following night and he would be given a seance. Mass did and Kellar pretended to go into a deep trance rolling his eyes and imitating all the other effects. While in the trance he told Mass his history from the time he ran away from Newark, N. J., relating his trials and tribulations and his efforts to make a success on the stage up to the time when a young lady committed suicide in San Francisco because of his jealousy. Then Kellar turned to him and said:

"What is your name?"

"Jim Mass," was the answer.

"That is not your right name," Kellar retorted, "your right name is James Cropsey!"

"It is a lie," said Mass.

"No, it is not a lie, for I see before me your name. I see that your father has just died of a broken heart because of your behaviour. I see your mother writing you a letter to that effect, begging you to come home and be her son again. I see the grave of your father and on the tombstone is inscribed, 'James Cropsey.' "

Kellar came out of the trance and Mass sprang up exclaiming:

"My God, you have told me things that only the Almighty and I know!"

Kellar claimed to Mass that he did not know anything which had transpired in the trance. The following day a letter came from Mass' mother telling him of the death of his father. This fully convinced him that Kellar had strong mediumistic powers, and to such an extent that when they met a few days later and Kellar told him that it was all a fake, Mass refused to believe it.

Kellar explained to me that while in Manila a few weeks previous he had met an American traveller who, while they were discussing the different theatrical companies in the Orient, had told him all the incidents he had repeated to Mass in the supposed trance. This traveller had written home to Mass' mother telling her of her son's whereabouts and therefore Kellar felt fairly safe in saying that a letter would arrive in a few days, but in spite of Kellar's confession Mass continued to believe firmly that he was a genuine psychic.

Although, of course, this is also an anecdote, and a second-hand one, at that.

 

[kali1137]

Thank you.

 

[Garrette]

You're looking for A Magician Amonst The Spirits by Harry Houdini, page 224:



Although, of course, this is also an anecdote, and a second-hand one, at that.

Spoilsport. Though of course you are right that it is a second hand anecdote, which is why I have never offered it as scientific proof of anything, but as I said, if one dismisses it then one must dismiss the claims.

 

[Garrette]

I generally do dismiss them. I have had no personal experiences that blew my mind and I have had many readings and been to Lilydale, NY several times. People can tell me all kinds of mind blowing details they were told, however, I have no way to verify anything or way to discern the tricks that might have been used. Until one of these mediums does something for me specifically that I cannot explain, I will consider it nothing but tricks.

Fair enough.

 

[Scorpion]

What I find surprising is that no one in your family presumably for decades of your life ever mentioned the dead brother to you. You also say it was a church you attended, we have documentary proof that networks of charlatans exist that pass details on about their victims. Sadly you sound like many of those victims.

Decades after I received this message, the subject came up at the diner table and when I recounted the message I had from a medium about a brother, my uncle said to my mother " you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that," and my mother said "well I didn't go round telling everyone"
My mother had not even told her own brother let alone me.
So how could a medium I had never seen before know the facts I did not even know myself.
I was just one person in the church audience and I only put a few coins in the collection box, so there was no reason for anyone to do a load of research on me. Besides I received many other evidential messages over the years, in different churches from different mediums, and I was told things like, the circumstances of my grandfathers death that nobody could know.

 

[Scorpion]

We had this tango with Scorpion before. All the ifs, ands and buts. It dents not the determined.

Hi yes, I have popped in again after a year or two. I think you will find my recollection of past events remains the same as always. I do not think my memory is that inaccurate. I still think that the evidence I received is valid, and no medium would have gone out of their way to deceive me, because there was nothing in it for them. I was just a face in the crowd and I gave them no money.

 

[Garrette]

Hi yes, I have popped in again after a year or two. I think you will find my recollection of past events remains the same as always. I do not think my memory is that inaccurate. I still think that the evidence I received is valid, and no medium would have gone out of their way to deceive me, because there was nothing in it for them. I was just a face in the crowd and I gave them no money.

Reference the part I highlighted: is everyone with the same degree of certainty automatically correct about whatever they are remembering, regardless of topic? Or are some people incorrect regardless of certainty?

 

[Hungry81]

Decades after I received this message, the subject came up at the diner table and when I recounted the message I had from a medium about a brother, my uncle said to my mother " you had a baby that died in the war, I didn't know that," and my mother said "well I didn't go round telling everyone"
My mother had not even told her own brother let alone me.
So how could a medium I had never seen before know the facts I did not even know myself.
I was just one person in the church audience and I only put a few coins in the collection box, so there was no reason for anyone to do a load of research on me. Besides I received many other evidential messages over the years, in different churches from different mediums, and I was told things like, the circumstances of my grandfathers death that nobody could know.

I suppose people and babies dieing during the war would have been fairly regular, if not from direct combat then malnutrition due to rationing, disease and robberies on top of all the usual factors. I wonder how many people the "psychic" says that to that didn't have a brother that died in the war or that then misattribute it to another family member who did die in the war (eg. Dads brother uncle joe, or dad who was a brother to joe, or a good friend who was like a brother.)

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I was just one person in the church audience and I only put a few coins in the collection box

I was just a face in the crowd and I gave them no money.

These statements are contradictory.

 

[Scorpion]

I suppose people and babies dieing during the war would have been fairly regular, if not from direct combat then malnutrition due to rationing, disease and robberies on top of all the usual factors. I wonder how many people the "psychic" says that to that didn't have a brother that died in the war or that then misattribute it to another family member who did die in the war (eg. Dads brother uncle joe, or dad who was a brother to joe, or a good friend who was like a brother.)

The medium gave me his name, and the circumstances of his death. Not just generalisations.

 

[Scorpion]

These statements are contradictory.

I did not give the mediums any money, just the church coffers. Mediums that serve spiritualist churches every week only get paid expenses for fares or for petrol money, they do not get fees. They are not in it for money, but to give comfort and evidence of survival.

 

[Darat]

The medium gave me his name, and the circumstances of his death. Not just generalisations.

And did you check on the birth and death certificates? Or was your phantom brother not recorded?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I did not give the mediums any money, just the church coffers. Mediums that serve spiritualist churches every week only get paid expenses for fares or for petrol money, they do not get fees. They are not in it for money, but to give comfort and evidence of survival.

This strikes me as possibly the most credulous thing I've ever read on these boards.

Besides, your two statements were still contradictory.

 

[stanfr]

The medium gave me his name, and the circumstances of his death. Not just generalisations.

'generalisations' (sic) is a relative term. If the 'circumstances of his death are too personal to reveal in a public forum, you should carefully consider the points others have made here about how cold reading operates.

I guess my life experience is pretty shallow, but honestly I don't even know what you mean by "died in the war'--does that mean died during the war? Died as a direct consequence of wartime activities?? You say you got specifics, and yet you speak in very vague terms. If that is the way you communicate with skeptics, who demand hard evidence, then I can only imagine how you mind spins generalizations into something that has meaning to you personally. And that's exactly how cold reading works, it preys on the willingness of people to believe and find connections, without the hard facts that science demands.

 

[Lithrael]

You say they could have had nothing to gain by taking time to get information to convince you that they were genuine, but here you are telling this story to others, which is a heartfelt testimonial, which is powerful advertising, which is worth a lot of money. Even when people do not include names it benefits the entire psychic industry.

 

[stanfr]

You say they could have had nothing to gain by taking time to get information to convince you that they were genuine, but here you are telling this story to others, which is a heartfelt testimonial, which is powerful advertising, which is worth a lot of money. Even when people do not include names it benefits the entire psychic industry.

I don't even think monetary gain is the principle motivator for some of these 'psychics'--many of them just like feeding their own egos, it's a power trip, getting people to believe that they are someone special.

 

[Garrette]

I did not give the mediums any money, just the church coffers. Mediums that serve spiritualist churches every week only get paid expenses for fares or for petrol money, they do not get fees. They are not in it for money, but to give comfort and evidence of survival.

This is a tremendous alarm bell. Even without being part of the predatory network outlined in M. Lamar Keene's The Psychic Mafia, the mere fact of repeated visits gives the lie to any claim of hot reading being impossible.