Did Jon-Benet Ramsay's brother kill her?

DNA from the blood droplet, as source

LTC8K6,

I am on my lunch break, so this will have to be quick. I posted a link to a news story, possibly from CBS, upthread that mentioned a similar case 9 months later.

About the DNA on JonBenet's underwear, from what I can gather this had the profile of an unknown male but not JonBenet (it would be nice to have the laboratory reports or some other reliable source of information). One has to be careful because of the exceptional case*, but in general when you find one DNA profile from a blood droplet, it means that the blood came from the person who is linked to that DNA profile. A different way to frame this is to say that this DNA is probably from the blood (it is source DNA), and source DNA is generally better evidence than sub-source DNA, DNA that is not associated with a particular body fluid or tissue. I don't have the best possible citation about this "hierarchy of propositions" at the moment, but this abstract would be a good place to start.
*details available upon request.
 
Last edited:
First of all, they would not have been searching an occupied house... they would have been searching a house that was empty, while the family was at the party.

Doing so would provide minimal risk.

A scenario involving an intruder who arrived before the Ramseys returned home requires that:
1) the intruder knew that the Ramseys were just away for the evening and hadn't left on vacation;
2) the intruder knew approximately what time the Ramseys would return home;
3) the intruder knew of a place in the house where there was no chance that any of the Ramseys would go that evening;
4) the intruder's hiding place, though in a place where the Ramseys were guaranteed not to go that evening, permitted him to monitor what was going on so that he knew when it was safe to come out of hiding.

You're talking about paper sitting on a desk. Do you really have such a photo-graphic memory that you could automatically detect whether some slip of paper or bill has been moved on a day-to-day basis?

5 reasons why I find it unlikely that the Ramseys would be leaving pay stubs and the like lying around.
1) the Ramsey's had young children. Most people do not want their children to get ahold of their financial information;
2) the Ramsey's children had friends. Most people do not want their childrens' friends snooping through their pay stubs, bank statements, and bills;
3) the Ramseys had a housekeeper and undoubtedly used other domestic help (e.g., a gardener). Most people, especially affluent ones, do not want people doing work on their homes to know anything about their finances nor do they want their help to have access to the personal information contained in pay stubs and bank statements;
4) the Ramseys had hosted a party 2 days previously. People don't ordinarily leave bills and bank statements lying around when they're hosting a party.
5) affluent people tend to be meticulous about keeping track of financial information because their income taxes are complicated.

You're right.. we don't. That's why I've given multiple possibilities as to how an outside intruder could have come up with $118k for the ransom amount. And while we may never know what the actual reason is, those possibilities are just as reasonable (if not more so) than an inside job where the ramseys were master criminals but somehow "slipped up" the Ransom amount.

I'm not sure that I think that the ransom amount being close to 1 million pesos is a more reasonable explanation than that it was equal to JR's bonus.

I disagree. For an intruder to have left the notepad, the intruder either would have had to have been rather stupid or else been so well-prepared for the crime that he was completely confident that he left no fingerprints or DNA on the notepad or pen.
Once again... this case was decades ago. At the time, I doubt any criminal was particularly concerned about 'touch DNA'. As for the fingerprints... a pair of gloves would have sufficed.

I would not have risked it, even with gloves. Of course, I find it impossibly difficult to write with gloves on.

Many people put stuff back where they found it out of habit.

When breaking into houses?


Doing something that's convenient (such as leaving the note on the back staircase) doesn't mean he wasn't unhurried. He had one ransom note. He could have left it on either set of stairs. He had to pick one. Why not pick the one that was closest to the door he might have left from or used on his way to get JonBenet?

I somehow get the feeling that had he left it on the other staircase, you would be howling about how it shows "staging because obviously they put it on the main staircase to make it look like a home invasion".

I somehow get the feeling that you're not a psychic.
 
LTC8K6,

I am on my lunch break, so this will have to be quick. I posted a link to a news story, possibly from CBS, upthread that mentioned a similar case 9 months later.

About the DNA on JonBenet's underwear, from what I can gather this had the profile of an unknown male but not JonBenet (it would be nice to have the laboratory reports or some other reliable source of information). One has to be careful because of the exceptional case*, but in general when you find one DNA profile from a blood droplet, it means that the blood came from the person who is linked to that DNA profile. A different way to frame this is to say that this DNA is probably from the blood (it is source DNA), and source DNA is generally better evidence than sub-source DNA, DNA that is not associated with a particular body fluid or tissue. I don't have the best possible citation about this "hierarchy of propositions" at the moment, but this abstract would be a good place to start.
*details available upon request.

Presumably you meant to say "not any of the Ramseys" rather than "not JonBenet". The DNA also didn't match any of their friends' DNA.

My understanding is that the DNA was mixed in with JB's blood, but that it hasn't been established that it was from someone else's blood, only that it came from some sort of fluid that came from someone else.
 
A scenario involving an intruder who arrived before the Ramseys returned home requires that:
1) the intruder knew that the Ramseys were just away for the evening and hadn't left on vacation;
2) the intruder knew approximately what time the Ramseys would return home;
3) the intruder knew of a place in the house where there was no chance that any of the Ramseys would go that evening;
4) the intruder's hiding place, though in a place where the Ramseys were guaranteed not to go that evening, permitted him to monitor what was going on so that he knew when it was safe to come out of hiding.
1) The Ramseys were very social people and were fairly well known in the community. Many people would have known their plans
2) No, he wouldn't. He knew they had children and would be back at some time. That's all he needed. (For comparison, the BTK killer waited in people's homes too, even though he didn't know exactly when they'd be home.)
3) Plenty of rooms in the basement. And even if an intruder could never be 100% sure of a perfect hiding spot, he still had a goal to achieve; a hiding spot with a small chance of risk would be superior to not achieving that goal
4) Not too difficult... wait until midnight, sneak out... see if there are lights on. If not, sneak further into the house

5 reasons why I find it unlikely that the Ramseys would be leaving pay stubs and the like lying around.
1) the Ramsey's had young children. Most people do not want their children to get ahold of their financial information;
The kids were 9 and under. What exactly are they going to do with it?
2) the Ramsey's children had friends. Most people do not want their childrens' friends snooping through their pay stubs, bank statements, and bills;
3) the Ramseys had a housekeeper and undoubtedly used other domestic help (e.g., a gardener).
The Ramseys were overly trusting people (e.g. leaving a broken window, not setting alarms, giving multiple keys to workmen, neighbors, etc.) Not locking up paystubs in a vault certainly fits into that trusting nature.
4) the Ramseys had hosted a party 2 days previously. People don't ordinarily leave bills and bank statements lying around when they're hosting a party.
Who said they did?

Bank statements probably weren't sitting on the living room table for anyone to peruse. They would be in an office or bedroom. Not places that people attending a party would wander to.
5) affluent people tend to be meticulous about keeping track of financial information because their income taxes are complicated.
I'm pretty sure anything like pay stubs would have copies sent to accountants, etc.

I'm not sure that I think that the ransom amount being close to 1 million pesos is a more reasonable explanation than that it was equal to JR's bonus.
Why, because it shows how wrong you could be?



Once again... this case was decades ago. At the time, I doubt any criminal was particularly concerned about 'touch DNA'. As for the fingerprints... a pair of gloves would have sufficed.
I would not have risked it, even with gloves.
That's probably because you probably don't feel compelled to harm and murder others.

Once you have that compulsion, you do things that a non-murder might consider risky because otherwise you won't achieve your goal.
Of course, I find it impossibly difficult to write with gloves on.
Yet thousands of people in the medical field have no problem doing so.

Many people put stuff back where they found it out of habit.
When breaking into houses?
The fact that an invader was breaking into a house doesn't mean that they would go out of their way to mess up the place. Heck, he might have done so to avoid the parents becoming suspicious before he put his plan into action.

I somehow get the feeling that you're not a psychic.
Well, in that case, let me make this one prediction....

At no point will you ever take me up on my challenge to give a complete story of what happened that night/day. You will continue to harp on tiny little points, and expose broad claims ("It was an inside job!"), but you will fail to show how such an inside job could have actually been pulled off..
 
1) The Ramseys were very social people and were fairly well known in the community. Many people would have known their plans

How many? Which ones? At that point, I had worked in Boulder for 13 years, and I had never even heard of the Ramseys much less knew what their Christmas plans were.

2) No, he wouldn't. He knew they had children and would be back at some time. That's all he needed. (For comparison, the BTK killer waited in people's homes too, even though he didn't know exactly when they'd be home.)

Again, how did he know that they would be back?

3) Plenty of rooms in the basement. And even if an intruder could never be 100% sure of a perfect hiding spot, he still had a goal to achieve; a hiding spot with a small chance of risk would be superior to not achieving that goal

When he could have simply broken into the home in the middle of the night, strangled JBR, and slipped away? Because merely strangling her wouldn't have caused enough hurt, so he had to bash her on the head and then strangle her?

The kids were 9 and under. What exactly are they going to do with it?

Tell all sorts of people. In the US, people are very private about their finances. I did not know how much my dad made until he died.

The Ramseys were overly trusting people (e.g. leaving a broken window, not setting alarms, giving multiple keys to workmen, neighbors, etc.) Not locking up paystubs in a vault certainly fits into that trusting nature.

Keeping financial documents hidden fits in more with being casual about allowing workers into their home. Pay stubs contain enough information to allow someone to steal a person's identity.

Bank statements probably weren't sitting on the living room table for anyone to peruse. They would be in an office or bedroom. Not places that people attending a party would wander to.

People who host parties are known to occasionally give tours of their homes.

I'm pretty sure anything like pay stubs would have copies sent to accountants, etc.

And then just thrown onto a table? How many people's homes have you been in where their paycheck stubs or bank statements have been visible? I've been in only 1 (my own).

What you've described is a scenario in which someone broke into a house, spent considerable time rummaging through the house, wrote a letter using a pen and notepad from that house and left both the pen and notepad in the house, left the letter in an unconventional location, went into a bedroom and carried off JBR, bashed her on the head, carried her down to the basement, decided to molest her with a paintbrush, after waiting at least 45 minutes strangled her, and eventually left. All without leaving any trace that anyone else was ever in the house, except perhaps a couple of drops of perspiration or saliva on her underpants. The intruder would either have to be incredibly lucky to have pulled this off or been a very experienced criminal. There were no remotely similar crimes before or after.
 
That the Whites had to be publically defined as non-suspects is explained in your wall of text here:


In April 1997, then-Boulder police Chief Tom Koby said in a prepared statement: "They (the Whites) are considered key witnesses. The Boulder Police Department appreciates the full cooperation they have received from the Whites since the beginning of their investigation. I feel this response is necessary due to the inaccurate portrayal of Mr. and Mrs. White in certain media publications."
and here:
Boulder police Chief Mark Beckner released a statement Thursday noting that "innocent community members" had been the target of speculation throughout the investigation into JonBenet's murder, and had suffered as a result. Fleet and Priscilla White, he said, are among them.

So you see, as speculation that one or both of the Fleets were involved repeatedly becomes rampant, the public needs to be reminded that they were investigated and cleared.


All of this:
There is some background to this from a Boulder Daily Camera article in 2014:

"Fleet and Priscilla White exonerated in death of JonBenet Ramsey — for third time
Boulder police chief says Ramseys' friends never were suspects

By Charlie Brennan, Camera Staff Writer
POSTED: 01/23/2014 01:50:46 PM MST | UPDATED: 3 YEARS AGO

Fleet White is seen in a Boulder courtroom last October during a hearing in a lawsuit seeking the release of the secret indictment of JonBenet
Fleet White is seen in a Boulder courtroom last October during a hearing in a lawsuit seeking the release of the secret indictment of JonBenet Ramsey's parents. On Thursday, the Whites were exonerated of any invovlement in JonBenet's death for the third time. (Jeremy Papasso / Daily Camera)
RELATED STORIES
Fleet and Priscilla White ask judge to compel Boulder police to release records
Fleet, Priscilla White denied official Ramsey exoneration statement by DA
Released indictment names John and Patsy Ramsey on two charges in JonBenet death
Judge to release indictment in JonBenet Ramsey case
Camera reporter sues Boulder DA seeking release of Ramsey indictment
JonBenet Ramsey grand jury voted to indict parents in 1999, but DA refused to prosecute.

Was because they were trying to get the grand jury indictments released.
 
So once again, "Inside Jobbers"... tell us what happened during the murder of JonBenet. Give us your complete story, not just little snippets. (Oh it must have been one of the Ramseys because X.) But a complete accounting. Lets see how rational your "inside theory" is. Because if you can't come up with a believable story about an inside job (one that doesn't involve bizarre leaps of logic) then the "inside job" theory must be discarded in favor of one that makes more sense (the intruder theory).

I will tell you what the police thought in the beginning. They theorized that it was accidental. That JonBenet had wet the bed (urine was in the bed, clothes on the bathroom floor, nighttime huggies hanging out of cabinet) and that Patsy had pushed her or hit her and she fell against something in the bathroom cracking her head. She appeared dead (physicians have said she probably had shallow breathing and that she could very well have been perceived as dead) and Patsy flipped out over killing her daughter. The rest was staged to point away from the Ramseys. It has been nearly confirmed there was sexual abuse going on (which I have always waivered on until a recent post here: http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2016/09/evidence-of-chronic-sexual-abuse-guest.html) which would explain why the digital and/or paintbrush penetration was performed, to mask the prior abuse.
 
1)
Well, in that case, let me make this one prediction....

At no point will you ever take me up on my challenge to give a complete story of what happened that night/day. You will continue to harp on tiny little points, and expose broad claims ("It was an inside job!"), but you will fail to show how such an inside job could have actually been pulled off..

Segnosaur,

What do you think happened? If you think IDI, what was the purpose? Let's hear you lay out your theory from an IDI point of view.
 
1) The Ramseys were very social people and were fairly well known in the community. Many people would have known their plans
How many? Which ones? At that point, I had worked in Boulder for 13 years, and I had never even heard of the Ramseys much less knew what their Christmas plans were.
As I've pointed out before... the killings were thought to be a personal cause... someone who had some sort of reason (real or imagined) to specifically target the Ramseys. He would have had at least some knowledge of the family.

Claiming you had no knowledge of them is irrelevant.

2) No, he wouldn't. He knew they had children and would be back at some time. That's all he needed. (For comparison, the BTK killer waited in people's homes too, even though he didn't know exactly when they'd be home.)
Again, how did he know that they would be back?[/quote]
Already explained.

3) Plenty of rooms in the basement. And even if an intruder could never be 100% sure of a perfect hiding spot, he still had a goal to achieve; a hiding spot with a small chance of risk would be superior to not achieving that goal
When he could have simply broken into the home in the middle of the night, strangled JBR, and slipped away? Because merely strangling her wouldn't have caused enough hurt, so he had to bash her on the head and then strangle her?
Yup, pretty much. After all, we know that Jack the Ripper dissected his victims in the middle of the street, whereas he could have just killed them and slipped away. Why? Because he had a compulsion to do so. BTK stayed around his victims, even depositing semen at the crime scene, and then taunted police with letters. Why? again, he had a compulsion to do so.

Whomever the murderer of JonBenet is, they did not have a financial motive. It was not a random thing. He had both a desire to harm the Ramseys and a rather sick desire to torture JonBenet. Simply stabbing her and running away would not have achieved that goal.

The kids were 9 and under. What exactly are they going to do with it?
Tell all sorts of people. In the US, people are very private about their finances. I did not know how much my dad made until he died.
You really think there are an army of 9 year olds running around bragging about their parent's income?

I knew how much my dad made. Granted, I was a few years older than the 2 Ramsey kids. I doubt my parents were that concerned.

The Ramseys were overly trusting people (e.g. leaving a broken window, not setting alarms, giving multiple keys to workmen, neighbors, etc.) Not locking up paystubs in a vault certainly fits into that trusting nature.
Keeping financial documents hidden fits in more with being casual about allowing workers into their home. Pay stubs contain enough information to allow someone to steal a person's identity.
And not locking doors, not setting burglar alarms, and giving keys out to dozens of people that you don't really know well is a way to allow people to break into your house and steal your possessions. Yet that's exactly what the Ramseys did. If these people were willing to risk their possessions, its not exactly a leap of faith to assume they'd also show a lack of concern regarding pay stubs.

Bank statements probably weren't sitting on the living room table for anyone to peruse. They would be in an office or bedroom. Not places that people attending a party would wander to.
People who host parties are known to occasionally give tours of their homes.
Not at any house party I've been to.

I'm pretty sure anything like pay stubs would have copies sent to accountants, etc.
And then just thrown onto a table? How many people's homes have you been in where their paycheck stubs or bank statements have been visible? I've been in only 1 (my own).
I certainly have confidential information visible in mine, if someone were to break in.
What you've described is a scenario in which someone broke into a house, spent considerable time rummaging through the house, wrote a letter using a pen and notepad from that house and left both the pen and notepad in the house, left the letter in an unconventional location, went into a bedroom and carried off JBR, bashed her on the head, carried her down to the basement, decided to molest her with a paintbrush, after waiting at least 45 minutes strangled her, and eventually left.
Yup. A complete scenario (although I did go into more details). A scenario that describes almost all the evidence.. A scenario where the main actors have modifications and personalities that are consistent.

Which is more than what you've provided, which is a vague "Inside Job" claim, without any sort of ability to put forward a reasonable scenario about how such a job could have come about.
All without leaving any trace that anyone else was ever in the house, except perhaps a couple of drops of perspiration or saliva on her underpants.
Not to mention the missing roll of tape. And while the presence of an unlocked door in the house doesn't guarantee an intruder, it certainly shows the viability of unlocked entrances as a way in or out of the building.
The intruder would either have to be incredibly lucky to have pulled this off or been a very experienced criminal.
Despite your claims, you're not likely to find DNA spewed all over every surface of the house, regardless of how long a criminal is there. And simply wearing latex/rubber gloves would have eliminated fingerprints.

Of course luck might have had something to do with it... incompetent police procedures early on (allowing non-police free range in the house) would have corrupted whatever evidence did exist, and a mistaken focus on the Ramseys would have meant that the search for other suspects would be minimized.
 
If the crime was a personal cause, I would expect there to be clues in the "ransom note"
 
I will tell you what the police thought in the beginning. They theorized that it was accidental. That JonBenet had wet the bed (urine was in the bed, clothes on the bathroom floor, nighttime huggies hanging out of cabinet) and that Patsy had pushed her or hit her and she fell against something in the bathroom cracking her head.
Yes, JonBenet wet the bed. She had been doing it for a long time. (Apparently it was a trait that ran in John's family.)

Patsy was used to dealing with it. So for Patsy to flip out this time seems a little strange. "OK you've wet the bed 100 times this year. But now that its the 101st I'm going to push you".

She appeared dead (physicians have said she probably had shallow breathing and that she could very well have been perceived as dead) and Patsy flipped out over killing her daughter. The rest was staged to point away from the Ramseys.
Patsy is so paniced over killing her daughter, yet she is calm and collected enough to stage a crime scene. Its this dual-nature that seems so unbelievable to me.

It has been nearly confirmed there was sexual abuse going on (which I have always waivered on until a recent post here: http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2016/09/evidence-of-chronic-sexual-abuse-guest.html) which would explain why the digital and/or paintbrush penetration was performed, to mask the prior abuse.
There were certainly a few accusations floating around about long-term sexual abuse, but nothing has been proven, and the FBI certainly didn't think it was happening.

Penetration by the paintbrush or finger would be consistent with a male intruder with a certain curiosity/compulsion regarding the female body.
What do you think happened? If you think IDI, what was the purpose? Let's hear you lay out your theory from an IDI point of view.
I've already done so a couple of times in this thread. Perhaps the most complete description was in post 85. In that post, I give a complete accounting... the order of events, why certain evidence appeared as it does, what the thought process of the invader would have been.

And that's more than any of the "inside jobbers" have ever done, who seem to be unable to put together any sort of coherent narrative about how the events might have occurred.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11502525&postcount=85

As I pointed out before... this was likely some sort of personal cause... someone with a grudge against the Ramseys (either real or imagined), as well as a dash of psychopath thrown in. He wanted to both hurt the Ramseys, and satisfy certain base urges (living out certain fantasies about killing/torturing). Nobody could ever know for sure what exactly was going through his mind, but we certainly have seen plenty of other killers with the same mentality. (And it certainly makes more sense than the mother who dotes on her daughter, yet decides to strangle her to death rather than get medical treatment.)
 
Those particular phrases were similar to phrases in a couple of popular action movies out at the time. Since those type of movies tend to appeal more to young men than middle-aged housewives, it rather points away from the Ramseys and towards an outside intruder.
The Ramseys had several movie posters hanging on the wall.
 
Yes, JonBenet wet the bed. She had been doing it for a long time. (Apparently it was a trait that ran in John's family.)

Patsy was used to dealing with it. So for Patsy to flip out this time seems a little strange. "OK you've wet the bed 100 times this year. But now that its the 101st I'm going to push you".

You never know what sets someone off. To say it happened a million times before and this reaction was different is useless.

Patsy is so paniced over killing her daughter, yet she is calm and collected enough to stage a crime scene. Its this dual-nature that seems so unbelievable to me.

The theory was that John staged the scene and Patsy wrote the note.

There were certainly a few accusations floating around about long-term sexual abuse, but nothing has been proven, and the FBI certainly didn't think it was happening.

There's quite a list of people at that linked article who say it did:

John McCann, MD - Clinical Professor of Medicine, Department of Pediatrics, UC Davis, acknowledged to be the foremost expert on child sexual abuse in the country;

David Jones, MD - Professor of Preventive Medicine and Biometrics, UC Boulder;

Robert Kirschner, MD - University of Chicago Department of Pathology;

James Monteleone, MD - Professor of Pediatrics at St Louis University School of Medicine and Director of Child Protection at Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital;

Ronald Wright, MD - former Medical Examiner, Cook County, Illinois; and

Virginia Rau, MD - Miami-Dade County Medical Examiner.

I will also add, although anecdotal, that I originally did not believe there was indication of chronic abuse. I was talking to my daughter (a CRNP) and I was saying she had been to the pediatrician a lot for vaginitis. My daughter's head whipped around and she asked, "Was she being abused?" I said I didn't think so, and she said, "They taught us in pediatrics that was a number one sign of abuse. Girls do not get reoccurring vaginitis for no reason."

As I pointed out before... this was likely some sort of personal cause... someone with a grudge against the Ramseys (either real or imagined), as well as a dash of psychopath thrown in. He wanted to both hurt the Ramseys, and satisfy certain base urges (living out certain fantasies about killing/torturing). Nobody could ever know for sure what exactly was going through his mind, but we certainly have seen plenty of other killers with the same mentality. (And it certainly makes more sense than the mother who dotes on her daughter, yet decides to strangle her to death rather than get medical treatment.)


Then why did s/he write a 3-page ransom note when the child was already dead? How did s/he silence JBR where she was taken, in the bedroom? Why did s/he place an extra nightgown next to the child (which just happened to be JBR's favorite one)? Why did s/he come with no tools for the job. The ransom note was written on Patsy's notepad, with Patsy's pen and the garrote was made from Patsy's paintbrush.
 
As I've pointed out before... the killings were thought to be a personal cause... someone who had some sort of reason (real or imagined) to specifically target the Ramseys. He would have had at least some knowledge of the family.

Then the Ramseys were poor judges of character? They had someone who was close enough to them to know what their Christmas and vacation plans were who wanted their daughter to die a slow, painful death?

If the killer knew the Ramsey's plans, why did he choose a night when they were getting home late and getting up early?

Claiming you had no knowledge of them is irrelevant.

But the comment was funny. To probably everyone but you.

Yup, pretty much. After all, we know that Jack the Ripper dissected his victims in the middle of the street, whereas he could have just killed them and slipped away. Why? Because he had a compulsion to do so. BTK stayed around his victims, even depositing semen at the crime scene, and then taunted police with letters. Why? again, he had a compulsion to do so.

Both of them were serial killers. There are no comparable murders to JBR's. In addition, only a few of BTK's murders involved breaking in before they returned home, and in those cases he had been conducting surveillance on them so that he had a good idea of when they would return. One intended victim avoided death by returning home later than usual.

Whomever the murderer of JonBenet is, they did not have a financial motive. It was not a random thing. He had both a desire to harm the Ramseys and a rather sick desire to torture JonBenet. Simply stabbing her and running away would not have achieved that goal.

That's one explanation. There are other plausible explanations.


You really think there are an army of 9 year olds running around bragging about their parent's income?

I don't recall mentioning anything about an army.

Not at any house party I've been to.

That's very surprising. I've been to lots of parties where I've been shown around the house.

Yup. A complete scenario (although I did go into more details). A scenario that describes almost all the evidence.. A scenario where the main actors have modifications and personalities that are consistent.

Which evidence does your scenario fit? There is no conclusive evidence of an intruder.

Which is more than what you've provided, which is a vague "Inside Job" claim, without any sort of ability to put forward a reasonable scenario about how such a job could have come about.

The evidence that I've discussed are items that everyone appears to agree lean towards a Ramsey involvement. I've made counter-arguments to arguments posted pointing to others' involvement. There have been a number of ideas posted in books and on the Internet about how the murder could have been accomplished by 1 or more of the Ramseys. The theory in the link in Elagabalus' post is not contradicted by any evidence.

Not to mention the missing roll of tape. And while the presence of an unlocked door in the house doesn't guarantee an intruder, it certainly shows the viability of unlocked entrances as a way in or out of the building.

If the killer wasn't afraid to leave the notepad and the pen, why would he worry about taking the roll of tape? (Incidentally, the tape that was over JBR's mouth contained fibers of the same color and composition as the jacket that PR wore the night before and the morning after).

Despite your claims, you're not likely to find DNA spewed all over every surface of the house, regardless of how long a criminal is there. And simply wearing latex/rubber gloves would have eliminated fingerprints.

This contradicts what's been posted in the Amanda Knox thread.

So far you haven't posted any affirmative evidence, only that your theory can't be disproven by what we know. Which means that it's not impossible that you are correct. It's also not impossible that you are wrong.
 
Last edited:
Those particular phrases were similar to phrases in a couple of popular action movies out at the time. Since those type of movies tend to appeal more to young men than middle-aged housewives, it rather points away from the Ramseys and towards an outside intruder.
The Ramseys had several movie posters hanging on the wall.
And which movies would they have been for?

The only video I've seen shows them having posters for Officer and a Gentleman (a romantic drama) and Death on the Nile (based on an Agatha Cristie novel). Both of those movies are significantly different than the type of action movies that contains the lines used in the ransom notes.

Maybe if they had posters for Dirty Harry or Speed it might be relevant, but to my knowledge there were no posters for those movies in their house.
 
segnosaur said:
I've already done so for the intruder theory, back in post 25, when I wrote (with some minor additions):
An intruder (possibly with a grudge against the Ramseys) breaks in when they are away, either through the window or an unlocked door, or using one of the many keys known to be in circulation. He brings with him duct tape and some rope. Maybe he brings a note, maybe not. He waits for the family to come home, exploring the house and writing the ransom note (because he didn't bring one originally, or because he saw John's pay stub for $118k and thought that would be a good amount to ask for) when waiting. Family comes home and goes to bed. Intruder leaves the note on the stairs, incapacitates JonBenet and brings her downstairs. However, for some reason his plans change. (Perhaps she struggles at an inopportune time, perhaps the stress of the situation gets to him, perhaps he realizes he can't get her out of the house safely). He takes her to the basement to the wine cellar, stuns her, starts to strangle her and hits her with the flashlight (or, alternatively, with a baseball bat he found in the house), and leaves either through the door that was found unlocked, taking the roll of tape with him. (If he used the baseball bat, he left it outside.) He leaves his flashlight in the kitchen on his way out of the house. (Or, the flashlight actually belonged to a policeman who had left in there by mistake and its irrelevant.)

Problemmo:

Something goes wrong and you hit her over the head and you don't get the heck out of dodge? There was AT LEAST 45 minutes between the head injury and the strangulation, possibly up to 2 hours.

He did not bring the note with him, as it came from Patsy's note pad, written by Patsy's pen, per the FBI.
 
And which movies would they have been for?

The only video I've seen shows them having posters for Officer and a Gentleman (a romantic drama) and Death on the Nile (based on an Agatha Cristie novel). Both of those movies are significantly different than the type of action movies that contains the lines used in the ransom notes.

Maybe if they had posters for Dirty Harry or Speed it might be relevant, but to my knowledge there were no posters for those movies in their house.
The point is that they were movie buffs (even had a home studio of sorts). It follows that they may be familiar with all sorts of films.
 
The only video I've seen shows them having posters for Officer and a Gentleman (a romantic drama) and Death on the Nile (based on an Agatha Cristie novel). Both of those movies are significantly different than the type of action movies that contains the lines used in the ransom notes.

Maybe if they had posters for Dirty Harry or Speed it might be relevant, but to my knowledge there were no posters for those movies in their house.
The point is that they were movie buffs (even had a home studio of sorts). It follows that they may be familiar with all sorts of films.
How does that follow?

I watch over a hundred movies a year. I'm certainly a "movie buff". But there are genres (such as slasher movies) that I don't go anywhere near. Being a "movie buff" does not mean that you watch each and every movie that ever comes out.

The movie posters show they like movies for people with more mature tastes. The phrases in the note were from more straight-up action movies that appeal to a younger/male demographic.
 
An intruder (possibly with a grudge against the Ramseys) breaks in when they are away, either through the window or an unlocked door, or using one of the many keys known to be in circulation. He brings with him duct tape and some rope. Maybe he brings a note, maybe not. He waits for the family to come home, exploring the house and writing the ransom note (because he didn't bring one originally, or because he saw John's pay stub for $118k and thought that would be a good amount to ask for) when waiting. Family comes home and goes to bed. Intruder leaves the note on the stairs, incapacitates JonBenet and brings her downstairs. However, for some reason his plans change. (Perhaps she struggles at an inopportune time, perhaps the stress of the situation gets to him, perhaps he realizes he can't get her out of the house safely). He takes her to the basement to the wine cellar, stuns her, starts to strangle her and hits her with the flashlight (or, alternatively, with a baseball bat he found in the house), and leaves either through the door that was found unlocked, taking the roll of tape with him. (If he used the baseball bat, he left it outside.)
Problemmo:

Something goes wrong and you hit her over the head and you don't get the heck out of dodge?
The blow would not have immediately killed her, they were in a part of the house that provided significant privacy, and the killer still had a desire to torture/inflict suffering. Why would he want to "get the heck out of dodge"?

You seem to be looking at this as if the killing were the only goal. It wasn't. Satisfying his twisted desires was.
There was AT LEAST 45 minutes between the head injury and the strangulation, possibly up to 2 hours.
Keep in mind that the '45 minutes' claim seems to come from an on-line "forum" hosted by the former chief of police. While the natural tendency is to believe someone with his background, he was not speaking in an official government capacity, nor were his comments subject to any sort of verification.

ETA: I certainly don't deny that there could have been significant time between the head blow and the strangulation. Just not sure how reliable the '45 minutes-2 hours' is.
He did not bring the note with him, as it came from Patsy's note pad, written by Patsy's pen, per the FBI.
Possible reasons for an intruder doing so have already been given, multiple times.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom