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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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In an effort to be helpful I will you give the Taubner Verdict, Nizkor reproduced it from "The Good Old Days."

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/t/taubner.max/taubner-1943-verdict

However, I'd say it would do you some good to read the book.
Is "The Good Old Days" the only book that reproduces this verdict in its entirety? My city library has this book in its collections but it is checked out and not due until next week. I have not been successful in my searches for this verdict from another source. :-(
 
Is "The Good Old Days" the only book that reproduces this verdict in its entirety? My city library has this book in its collections but it is checked out and not due until next week. I have not been successful in my searches for this verdict from another source. :-(

The German version has Taeubner material from pp.183-192, the judgement is substantially reproduced but not down to the last sentence, there are ellipses. Which is quite normal when trying to put together a 'mixed' document collection that doesn't sprawl hopelessly.

I assume the English edition reproduces the same material, three separate documents, the judgement, suspension of legal case for others accused in the same affair, and pardoning of Taeubner.

'The Good Old Days' has a mix of documents and testimonies from the Nazis, it's definitely worth a look as a whole.
 
Is "The Good Old Days" the only book that reproduces this verdict in its entirety? My city library has this book in its collections but it is checked out and not due until next week. I have not been successful in my searches for this verdict from another source. :-(

I don't know, I've only seen it in connection with this book.

I don't recommend reading this book as a library check-out, I broke the book down and read it over a series of days. It is broken into chapters dealing with the Einsatzgruppen, Chelmno and the Action Reinhard Camps but it has very little commentary so it can be a bit of a hard read, both by format and subject matter. My advice is to purchase it, you can get it fairly cheaply on-line, I got my copy through Amazon.
 
I am attempting to act like a defense attorney or devil's advocate and question every bit of unfavorable evidence.
I will grant you that serving as counsel for a guilty client is a tough business and does make for clutching at straws: one option is to have the client simply acknowledge his guilt and enter a plea to that effect.
 
I am attempting to act like a defense attorney or devil's advocate and question every bit of unfavorable evidence. If I end up feeling like OJ Simpson's defense team at a Trump rally, so be it. It's a legitimate task.


If you are going to act like a defence attorney you need to address the totality of the evidence, not just the occasional anomalies. Alternately you need to figure out if these anomalies disrupt the "prosecution's" narrative to the point where the conclusion is beyond reasonable doubt.

From what I've seen, the case for the Holocaust has been made beyond a reasonable doubt.
 
From what I've seen, the case for the Holocaust has been made beyond a reasonable doubt.


An aside; at what point was the documentation and other evidence sufficient from a western courts* perspective to confirm the existence of the Holocaust, 1946? or later?


*Obviously the Germans knew it was happening I am referring to outside courts

Second aside: What official in Germany knew the most about the details of Holocaust?
 
An aside; at what point was the documentation and other evidence sufficient from a western courts* perspective to confirm the existence of the Holocaust, 1946? or later?





*Obviously the Germans knew it was happening I am referring to outside courts



Second aside: What official in Germany knew the most about the details of Holocaust?



I'd say the case would have been solid enough for trial around 1942 when Rittmiester Pilecki got out of Auschwitz with the Intel from the Polish Home Army.
 
In an effort to be helpful I will you give the Taubner Verdict, Nizkor reproduced it from "The Good Old Days."

[...] However, I'd say it would do you some good to read the book.
Sure. I now have a copy of the book, the key part of which for this discussion is the Taubner verdict. This also contains material relevant to the existence of special laws in the East raised by Lemmy Caution in the context of Morgen. I note that the Diemut Mayer book is by a former prosecutor at Nuremberg, so possibly slanted, though I will try and find a copy. Some of the later German defense lawyers, particularly Hans Laternser, had bite and also wrote on the subject. Their work would need also to be consulted to get close to a rounded view. I comment on The Good Old Days as follows:

"The Good old Days" - in general
I find this a sad book in some ways. It dates from 1988 prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union and is the product of three members of the "Auschwitz generation" in West Germany, who compiled documents painting their parent's generation in a bad light. It is clearly designed to shock. One was a theologian who taught disabled children, the second was an archivist and the third a doctoral student in history. The preface by Hugh Trevor-Roper to the 1991 English edition goes some way to acknowledge the value of revisionism (pages X-XI), though he does not represent the scope of its criticisms accurately or cite any actual revisionist authors. This was the era when writers like David Irving were taken seriously, but revisionism as such was little known and considered fringe at best. Trevor-Roper was a British army officer who first came to notice for his published investigation of Hitler's suicide. He must then have seen the results of allied bombing first hand. Despite this (or perhaps because of it in an exculpatory way) he represents the Germans as peculiarly or unnaturally morally depraved. He does this by contrasting their warped moral judgments about the Jews with gluttonous and sensual descriptions of food ("wonderful vanilla ice-cream [...] baked pike, as much as you wanted, real ground coffee", XVI). Clearly, such people had it coming to them. He himself made serious efforts to evaluate evidence, but not always successfully, as the Hitler diaries fiasco showed.

The Taubner verdict - sources
I am told that the original is "probably" in Berlin. I'm not sure if there is any point pursuing the matter further at our level. No-one seems to have put a copy of the German original online. Apparently Taubner was also investigated in the 1950s in West Germany and there may be further holdings related to that.

The Taubner verdict - content
This reads strangely to me in places, as if it not all of a piece, but this may be a result of my ignorance. The judgment itself is attributed to the "SS and Police Supreme Court" (201, 204). One wonders if this was the only such case this body ruled on. It contains a statement of facts and a sentence with justification. The document as a whole implies that Taubner was subject to both the Reich Criminal Code (RStGB, 203), the Military Criminal Code (MStGB, 202) and a separate Criminal Law War Decree (203). Taubner ranked as a commissioned officer (second lieutenant equivalent). Presumably then he would have had a sense of the scope of his authority and the applicable law. Despite this, it is stated that he "resolved to 'get rid of' 20,000 Jews if possible" (196). How, based on the above legal framework, could he have thought he had authority to do this? - presumably from some order not included in the verdict. The authors do not seem to indicate what this is.

The statement of facts describes three shootings of Jews in different locations (196-99), with Taubner deciding to order the shootings on various flimsy pretexts and the orders being implemented. Again, it's not clear how the perception of his having authority to do this arose. One case might be represented as reprisal (after two Ukrainian women stepped on mines). In other cases it is just a matter of hearing rumors. One significant section of the sentencing reads:
The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated [vernichtet] and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which have been set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself.

The court thus decides on its own authority not to punish three killing actions and gives two reasons. It offers no justification for the first, that the Jews "have to be exterminated". This would be common knowledge at most only in the sense that Hitler used the term, in which it meant "deprived of power", not necessarily killed. It does not attempt to reconcile this with the applicable law, nor does it indicate an order that would override the law. Nor does it attempt to justify the statement that none of the Jews were any great loss. Indeed, the inference from someone's death being no great loss, to someone else having the right to kill them is obviously suspect. I can imagine such a thing being said in the heat of war in a British trial of an RAF officer who bombed German civilians through negligence. The bombing of Munich, where the SS Court head Office was located, began in October 1942. The sentence about "special Kommandos" is also unclear. If the Einsatzgruppen were meant, these had other responsibilities; if "vernichten" had the reduced meaning I have suggested, it is not clear who is being referred to.

Then there are the photographs of atrocities. It is not clear why Taubner would show these to people. Perhaps it is like jihadists today showing videos of beheadings to shock or desensitize, but it still reads strangely. You would expect him to fear his wife's disapproval. Descriptions of German women rejoicing in atrocities are a common feature of propaganda. Equally, war can give scope to psychopathic personalities and perhaps Taubner or his wife were instances of this. However, the main point at issue is the legal framework and how it was applied.

The execution of the Ukrainian captain and the attempt to procure an abortion read like a normal legal procedure.

This chapter of The Good old Days includes an equally significant document on the SS and Police response to unauthorized shootings of Jews (205) addressed to the "SS Court Head Office" dated 26 October 1942. This implies that in some circumstances, order to shot Jews were given (unauthorized shootings has the implication that other shootings were authorized), though not why.
 
I note that the Diemut Mayer book is by a former prosecutor at Nuremberg
Sorry, this is a mistake on my part. The Mayer book was reviewed by Benjamin B. Ferencz, who was a former prosecutor at Nuremberg, not written by someone in that capacity.
 
This would be common knowledge at most only in the sense that Hitler used the term, in which it meant "deprived of power", not necessarily killed.

Do you at least understand German and the basic meaning of the word "vernichten"?

And I raise the same question for the words "ausrotten" and "Ausrottung" which were of common use within nazi circles when talking about the jews...
 
Do you at least understand German and the basic meaning of the word "vernichten"?

And I raise the same question for the words "ausrotten" and "Ausrottung" which were of common use within nazi circles when talking about the jews...
I am learning German, but have a long way to go. I understand their use in Hitler's Mein Kampf, where they can connote either killing or depriving of power.
 
I am learning German, but have a long way to go. I understand their use in Hitler's Mein Kampf, where they can connote either killing or depriving of power.

For having been teached German as a very young boy (my grand mother was a native German speaker) I can tell you that the first meaning which comes to mind for vernichten and ausrotten is not "to deprive of power".
 
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For having been teached German as a very young boy (my grand mother was a native German speaker) I can tell you that the first meaning which comes to mind for vernichten and ausrotten is not "to deprive of power".
Usage changes. When Clausewitz writes Vernichtungskrieg, do you think he is describing or proposing genocide?
 
Usage changes. When Clausewitz writes Vernichtungskrieg, do you think he is describing or proposing genocide?

You should at least explain us in which context he used that word and what was the purpose of this "Vernichtungskrieg". I would guess he was at least alluding to a total war were the ennemi means - including human means - should be destroyed. But as I understand he made a difference between civilian and non-civilians.

By the way, when Lothar von Trotha issued his Vernichtungsbefehl against the Herero people the meaning of the word was very clear :

Die Herero sind nicht mehr Deutsche Untertanen. […] Innerhalb der Deutschen Grenze wird jeder Herero mit oder ohne Gewehr, mit oder ohne Vieh erschossen, ich nehme keine Weiber und keine Kinder mehr auf, treibe sie zu ihrem Volke zurück oder lasse auch auf sie schießen

The Hereros are German subjects no longer. [...] Any Herero found inside the German frontier, with or without a gun or cattle, will be executed. I shall spare neither women nor children. I shall give the order to drive them away and fire on them.)

And this was less than one century after Clausewitz.
 
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Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to comply with rule 12. Please concentrate on the arguments, not the person making them.


EtienneSC said:
I find this a sad book in some ways. It dates from 1988 prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union and is the product of three members of the "Auschwitz generation" in West Germany, who "compiled documents painting their parent's generation in a bad light. It is clearly designed to shock.

EtienneSC said:
This would be common knowledge at most only in the sense that Hitler used the term, in which it meant "deprived of power", not necessarily killed.

[snip] It's clear what it means, despite your refusal to accept it.

EtienneSC said:
Presumably then he would have had a sense of the scope of his authority and the applicable law. Despite this, it is stated that he "resolved to 'get rid of' 20,000 Jews if possible" How, based on the above legal framework, could he have thought he had authority to do this?

Duh, because [snip] Nazi heroes were antisemites who hated Jews. Their campaign in the east and the constant propaganda against the Jews legitimized violence against them. Common sense.

EtienneSC said:
The court thus decides on its own authority not to punish three killing actions and gives two reasons. It offers no justification for the first, that the Jews "have to be exterminated".

That is the justification. The court's verdict establishes that exterminating, i.e. Killing [snip] was the standard operating procedure. Which is why the next thing the court says is "none of the Jews killed was any great loss". [snip] The charges against Taubner were insubordination and acting in an "un German" manner. [snip] the Nazis imagined themselves to be proper gentlemen, and that murder had to be done in an orderly manner. The issue is not that Taubner killed, but that he overstepped his bounds.

You'd think that the use of the word "Killing" in relation to a sentence with the word "Exterminated" would make things absolutely clear. But that's deniers for you.

Then there are the photographs of atrocities. It is not clear why Taubner would show these to people. Perhaps it is like jihadists today showing videos of beheadings to shock or desensitize, but it still reads strangely. You would expect him to fear his wife's disapproval. Descriptions of German women rejoicing in atrocities are a common feature of propaganda. Equally, war can give scope to psychopathic personalities and perhaps Taubner or his wife were instances of this. However, the main point at issue is the legal framework and how it was applied.

There are plenty of photographs of atrocities taken by German soldiers, all of them can be traced, and none of them were forged or staged because there was no motive or reason to stage them. There are also official orders from German generals intended to counter the growing trend of "atrocity tourism". It is always interesting to hear how ignorant Deniers are of the history they question, as well as average human behavior. But, facts are facts. [snip]
 
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Usage changes. When Clausewitz writes Vernichtungskrieg, do you think he is describing or proposing genocide?

Correction, usage changes depending on how screwed Deniers are when the document doesn't support their fantasies. Just look at Carlo Mattogno for example: Resettlement "literally" means resettlement (even when there's no evidence for resettlement), but references to "killing" are just Jokes. "Leading Revisionist"? Yeah, right.

Instead of this nonsense, why doesn't EtienneSC discuss the specific usage of the word in this specific context? Because the truth hurts?
 
Ivanesca said:
EtienneSC said:
I find this a sad book in some ways. It dates from 1988 prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union and is the product of three members of the "Auschwitz generation" in West Germany, who "compiled" documents painting their parent's generation in a bad light. It is clearly "designed" to shock.

This would be common knowledge at most only in the sense that Hitler used the term, in which it meant "deprived of power", not necessarily killed.

[snip]. It's clear what it means, despite your refusal to accept it.

Another example:

EtienneSC said:
I am told that the original is "probably" in Berlin. I'm not sure if there is any point pursuing the matter further at our level. No-one seems to have put a copy of the German original online. Apparently Taubner was also investigated in the 1950s in West Germany and there may be further holdings related to that.

And

EtienneSC said:
Descriptions of German women rejoicing in atrocities are a common feature of propaganda

Edited by Agatha: 
Edited to comply with rule 12. Please concentrate on the arguments, not the person making them.


It has to be said, though. This is a non sequitur, sorry. Just because it's not online [snip]doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A reference has been given, and this is just more goalpost moving. [snip] governments have other things to do besides paying for the hosting and digitizing what is possibly thousands upon thousands of records. It exists, [snip] His pathetic attempts at well poisoning do nothing to refute the veracity of the verdict document, and the fact that it overwhelmingly proves that the mass murder of the Jews was standard policy.
 
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I note that the Diemut Mayer book is by a former prosecutor at Nuremberg, so possibly slanted, though I will try and find a copy.
More later, but, no, Diemut Majer was not a Nuremberg prosecutor. Born in 1938, her serving the prosecution at Nuremberg would have made her precocious beyond belief. I believe her Habilitation dates to the late '80s.

What I wonder is what leads you to make such a gaffe?

Attempt to poison the well: failed.
 
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