Did Jon-Benet Ramsay's brother kill her?

[Chris_Halkides]

the handwriting of the note

More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?

Bob001,

I am rereading the chapters in John Douglas and Mark Olshaker's book, "Law and Disorder." They said that three handwriting experts excluded Patsy, and the fourth thought her unlikely as writer of the note, but did not rule it out.

 

[Samson]

More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?

If she was still alive when finally killed , I will continue to believe an intruder did this crime. There was a lot of love and energy expended in raising this child, and the reaction on discovering an injured child for any reason will be that which all parents share in common, keep it alive.
Occam's razor implores we find an explanation that does not violate this evolutionary urge. That explanation is difficult, but less so than the alternative.
IMO.

 

[Vortigern99]

More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?

In order to conclude that "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house has to ignore the hand print, the foot print, the unknown male DNA under the deceased's nails, and the ransom note, which has been determined by credible experts not to have been written by a family member.

You may have your own reasons for disputing each piece of that evidence as conclusive, but to assert that there is no physical evidence is entirely inaccurate.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

In order to conclude that "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house has to ignore the hand print, the foot print, the unknown male DNA under the deceased's nails, and the ransom note, which has been determined by credible experts not to have been written by a family member.

1) An old Rocky Mountain News article states that the hand print was eventually identified as that of Melinda Ramsey and that the Ramsey's attorney conceded that this was the case.
2) There's no way to date the shoe print. Melinda Ramsey was in Georgia at the time of the murder, so her palm print was old. Why then would we have any reason to have any certainty that the footprint was made the day of the murder? I've found a number of sites that state that Burke stated that he had owned shoes from the brand of shoe (the logo was clearly visible), though none of the sites are authoritative.
3) The amount of DNA was extremely small, not even enough to get a full profile. Not what would be expected if it can from trying to escape from an assailant. No one in this conversation seems to know how long foreign DNA under fingernails can last, so we can't date it.
4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.

 

[Elagabalus]

4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.

This is one of those things. Did they tell Patsy to write it out or subtly imply that she should copy what was written? She has already seen the note.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I don't like the way Governor Owens is still shooting his mouth off about the Ramsey case. Governor Owens does not have a judicial mind. In my opinion. there needs to be a full investigation of the alibi of Governor Owens that night and why he is so keen to pin the blame on the Ramseys. Governor Owens must cooperate with this interrogation.

The father of Fleet White was living at the time at Aspen, Colorado which is a fashionable resort in Colorado. It's a short drive to Boulder. The father of Fleet White has been proved to have been involved in child prostitution, and arranging sex and cocaine parties in the past for the elite. Fleet White has been proved to have known the mother of Nancy Krebs who was known to be involved in child prostitution, though Fleet White denied that at first. Nancy Krebs said her mother was at a party in Boulder where JonBenet was murdered.The Boulder police and FBI were only interested in the Ramseys as suspects. It's like murder suspects in India get off scot free.

 

[Henri McPhee]

This is one of those things. Did they tell Patsy to write it out or subtly imply that she should copy what was written? She has already seen the note.

Dusak is, or was, a document examiner with the US Secret Service. He reported that there is no evidence to indicate that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Dusak wasn't paid by the Ramseys. The two Ramsey experts were Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Rile. If Dusak was being bribed by the Ramseys I would be very surprised. That's most unlikely.

The Boulder police, or CBI experts, were Ubowski, Speckin, Alford, and Dusak. None of them reported that a Ramsey wrote the ransom note. They were some of the top experts in America. Ubowski did say he had his doubts, but he would be unwilling to testify in court that Patsy wrote the ransom note. They examined the original ransom note, unlike the other so-called handwriting experts.

How about checking the handwriting of Priscilla White?

 

[banquetbear]

Apparently you are not aware that there are unsolved crimes. Evidence that a crime was committed does not necessarily mean that there's evidence of who committed the crime.

...of course there are unsolved crimes.

You said "experts" found evidence of prior abuse. Abuse is a crime, don't you agree?

So the police did zero investigative work into this prior abuse? They didn't try and find out who the abuser was?

I think that the ex-chief was trying to make a point about how strange it was for an intruder to have left a ransom note and also to have left the body where it was likely to be found before the ransom was paid. Either the intruder was stupid or the ransom note was meant to be a diversion.

"Strange" is not evidence. Strange things happen all the time. It is irresponsible for the "ex-chief" to be making points like this.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

I don't like the way Governor Owens is still shooting his mouth off about the Ramsey case. Governor Owens does not have a judicial mind. In my opinion. there needs to be a full investigation of the alibi of Governor Owens that night and why he is so keen to pin the blame on the Ramseys. Governor Owens must cooperate with this interrogation.

The father of Fleet White was living at the time at Aspen, Colorado which is a fashionable resort in Colorado. It's a short drive to Boulder. The father of Fleet White has been proved to have been involved in child prostitution, and arranging sex and cocaine parties in the past for the elite. Fleet White has been proved to have known the mother of Nancy Krebs who was known to be involved in child prostitution, though Fleet White denied that at first. Nancy Krebs said her mother was at a party in Boulder where JonBenet was murdered.The Boulder police and FBI were only interested in the Ramseys as suspects. It's like murder suspects in India get off scot free.

You left out the housekeeper.

You also left out that Nancy Krebs claimed that John Ramsey was a close family friend.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

...of course there are unsolved crimes.

You said "experts" found evidence of prior abuse. Abuse is a crime, don't you agree?

So the police did zero investigative work into this prior abuse? They didn't try and find out who the abuser was?

Do you know for a fact that they didn't investigate this?

"Strange" is not evidence. Strange things happen all the time. It is irresponsible for the "ex-chief" to be making points like this.

Never said that it was "evidence". But it's an item that does seem more likely to have occurred if the "kidnapping" was faked to try to throw off investigators than if it was a legitimate attempt to get ransom money.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

If she was still alive when finally killed , I will continue to believe an intruder did this crime. There was a lot of love and energy expended in raising this child, and the reaction on discovering an injured child for any reason will be that which all parents share in common, keep it alive.
Occam's razor implores we find an explanation that does not violate this evolutionary urge. That explanation is difficult, but less so than the alternative.
IMO.

Occam's Razor does no such thing. Parental killing of children is not terribly uncommon.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Persistence of fingernail DNA; DNA contamination

"In a study involving deliberate scratching of another individual (n = 30), 33% of individuals had a foreign DNA profile beneath their fingernails from which the person they scratched could not be excluded as the source; however when sampling occurred ∼6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA." From the abstract of a 2012 study.

Here is a link to more information on the DNA. Taking the two profiles on the left versus right nails as a given, I would point out that if the nail clippers had not been cleaned properly, the possibility of accidental transfer of one profile unrelated to a crime should not be ruled out (I seem to recall that DNA can be transferred during autopsies and even via fingerprint brushes). The BBC reported on a case in an article from 2014, which involved inadvertent DNA transfer due to nail cuttings many years earlier. However, with two profiles in the Ramsey, that occurrence seems less likely. Here is a link to a brief but informative article on cold case fingernail DNA.

 

[William Parcher]

6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA.

What about people who are dead for those 6 hours?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

cold case from Santa Clara

What about people who are dead for those 6 hours?

William Parcher,

DNA can persist for many years. Consider this case from the last link I provided: "For example, in 1985 a woman’s body was found in a dumpster in Santa Clara County. Between then and now the investigation led to no significant leads to the offender. However, with new technology the local crime laboratory was able to develop the DNA profile from the victim’s fingernails in 2010. The DNA matched an already convicted offender who was not previously linked to the victim. This led to his arrest."

 

[William Parcher]

Let me ask the question a different way. Were the test subjects allowed to use their hands for those 6 hours, or were their hands immobilized as if they were dead?

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

The Boulder police, or CBI experts, were Ubowski, Speckin, Alford, and Dusak. None of them reported that a Ramsey wrote the ransom note. They were some of the top experts in America. Ubowski did say he had his doubts, but he would be unwilling to testify in court that Patsy wrote the ransom note. They examined the original ransom note, unlike the other so-called handwriting experts.

Ubowski was quoted in The Denver Post as saying "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey." Is this what you mean by "doubts"?

How about checking the handwriting of Priscilla White?

I've seen reports, attributed to one of the investigators, Steve Thomas, that said that 73 people had their handwriting checked.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

normal hand washing, etc.

Let me ask the question a different way. Were the test subjects allowed to use their hands for those 6 hours, or were their hands immobilized as if they were dead?

Good question. They did their normal activities, but they kept a log.

 

[Vortigern99]

1) An old Rocky Mountain News article states that the hand print was eventually identified as that of Melinda Ramsey and that the Ramsey's attorney conceded that this was the case.
2) There's no way to date the shoe print. Melinda Ramsey was in Georgia at the time of the murder, so her palm print was old. Why then would we have any reason to have any certainty that the footprint was made the day of the murder? I've found a number of sites that state that Burke stated that he had owned shoes from the brand of shoe (the logo was clearly visible), though none of the sites are authoritative.
3) The amount of DNA was extremely small, not even enough to get a full profile. Not what would be expected if it can from trying to escape from an assailant. No one in this conversation seems to know how long foreign DNA under fingernails can last, so we can't date it.
4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.

Given all of this, to conclude that there was "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house, as you did, is inaccurate.

One may dispute each piece of that evidence as conclusive, but to assert that there is "no physical evidence" is entirely inaccurate. What are you not getting about this?

 

[Henri McPhee]

Ubowski was quoted in The Denver Post as saying "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey." Is this what you mean by "doubts"?

I've seen reports, attributed to one of the investigators, Steve Thomas, that said that 73 people had their handwriting checked.

The Denver Post has always been very biased against the Ramseys. It's probably because their advertising department is a bit too close to Lockheed Martin sex parties for clients. You need to read the Boulder Daily Camera for a fair and just explanation of the Ramsey case.

Personally, I don't think the housekeeper, or Merv the Perv Pugh are all that relevant to the Ramsey case.

It's true that Nancy Krebs mistakenly thought in her simple mind that John Ramsey was involved. That's probably why Lin Wood never pressed the point at the time. I suppose his job was just to defend the Ramseys. The point is that Nancy Krebs said that JonBenet was murdered at a sex party in Boulder and that Fleet White and her mother were involved. It should have been further investigated. I find it incredible that Beckner is still convinced the Ramseys did it, and nobody else. It's bad police work. No wonder innocent people get convicted in America.

As an old English law book once said:

"The commonest mistake made by those inexperienced in weighing evidence is to reject the whole of a story because the witness who told it has made mistakes, or even lied, as to part."

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Handwriting analysis aside, there are a number of interesting things related to the ransom note:
- the demanded ransom matched John Ramsey's bonus
- while the salutation was "Mr. Ramsey", in the body of the note Mr. Ramsey is addressed as "john" and in increasing frequency as the note progresses and takes on a more personal tone
- allusions are made to Mr. Ramsey's background (e.g., "use your southern common sense")
- the note expressed a concern for Mr. Ramsey's welfare ("the delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be well-rested")
- the note curiously instructed Mr. Ramsey to bring an "attache" to the bank rather than the more common "briefcase" and then mentioned "law enforcement countermeasures" rather than the more common "police procedures", after earlier misspelling "business" AND "scrutiny"
- the author returned the notepad to the drawer after writing the ransom note
- the note specifically stated that JonBenet would be killed if the Ramseys talk to anyone ("If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.") but the Ramseys allowed a number of friends to come to their house